Hero is broken

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

We can't because people and gadgets are objects with damagable internal parts. The Earthe and other massive objects are for this intent inert. A single 200d6 EB or 1000d6 EB would do nothing but pulverize the section of the Earth it hit, and disapate harmlessly.

 

Why?

 

Because that is how HERO was built. It was not built to model the interactions of megadamage versus planetary objects. Thus the Earth does not have a measly 89 Body despite the applications of the exponential system. It likely has a body score well into the millions and it (the earth) is only a small astronomical body, Jupiter and the Sun would likely have Body scores in the Billions.

 

IMO the use of the rules should be restricted to the matter they deal with well, like how much damage Mechanon can take before his head detaches and his body explodes.

 

Hawksmoor

I don't know about giving the Earth (as a target) more than 89 BODY (or whatever), but any attack that is meant to turn the planet into a clowd of space debris could be considered a Transform; and the Earth's gravity could be considered a really big Power DEF.

 

Personally, I think the Earth exists in a Macro-Scale Dimension, and any attack meant to hurt it, should have the appropriate Transdimensional Advantage added to it. It's impossible to really even target the Earth with an attack from our vantage point.

 

Call me crazy.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I must not be understanding what you are trying to say here.

 

Wouldn't that argument apply exactly to attacking a mile high monster?

 

Specifically, to slightly re-worded your statement above (I simply replaced "Earth" with "Mile High Monster") : "the damage we do to a single hex on a Mile High Monster is like attacking a tiny little bit of a character as opposed to a whole character"

 

It seems like esentially the same argument to me.

It is, whether a "mile" is the breaking point or not. Somewhere, there is a breaking point from a logical viewpoint, although when it comes to character-character combat it's even trickier since we have source material examples such as the Atom and the like. All that is clear on this front is that we know when the Atom is at subatomic level, he can't hurt people (directly), although at extremely tiny levels but > atomic particle size, with his high density, he can.

 

I couldn't say when the last time this has been an issue, though. I've had some gigantic characters but have felt they remained in a range where mano-y-mano ought to function normally.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I... wow. I just... I mean, wow. Wow.

 

Wow. I can't believe the trivial minutiae we're discussing here.

 

Why are we discussing this? What point are we trying to prove? Would anyone care to enlighten me? It's mind-boggling. I truly am not seeing the final goal here, since obviously everyone seems to believe they probably know the most correct asnwer.

 

I say "we" because I'm including myself, having recently taken part in this.

 

Why?

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I... wow. I just... I mean, wow. Wow.

 

Wow. I can't believe the trivial minutiae we're discussing here.

 

Why are we discussing this? What point are we trying to prove? Would anyone care to enlighten me? It's mind-boggling. I truly am not seeing the final goal here, since obviously everyone seems to believe they probably know the most correct asnwer.

 

I say "we" because I'm including myself, having recently taken part in this.

 

Why?

This is from False ID's "Loss of Faith" thread:

If you were to walk down a path and look at a tree' date=' and then further on down the path, to turn around and look back at the tree, you would be looking at a different thing altogether. There is a connection between the first tree and the second, but it's still not the same tree. And the truth is, you will never really know the tree, no matter how long you studied it. It's just an illusion. It doesn't really exist as a thing, because it isn't really separate from anything else. To know the tree, you would have to know everything.[/quote']

Once I saw on Ophera Winfrey show a program about people who never cleaned their house.

The thing is with those people is that they are perfectionists and if they (in their own head) can not keep the house COMPLEATLY clean at all times then it is not worth to them to keep the house clean at all.

So they just live in filth. Weird.

Good point. So what you are basically saying, is that even though perfect knowledge of the tree is impossible, the pursuit of knowledge of the tree has value itself. The goal is not the goal. Moving towards the goal, is the goal.

 

Taking it even further, is the belief that simply 'being' is enough, and that we should strive to be aware of every moment of our lives.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Specifically, it would be interesting to fix these scale issues.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Specifically' date=' it would be interesting to fix these scale issues.[/quote']

 

 

Specifically, it's impossible in a EXP system to fix these scale issues.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Specifically' date=' it's impossible in a EXP system to fix these scale issues.[/quote']

Not really. There are difficulties inherent in doing so, but as some suggested notions indicate, one could build methods. I used a flavor of the scale of the attacker versus the target in a game, one could do a number of different methods. One ends up "breaking" something somewhere with such fixes but it doesn't mean they are impossible or unviable.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

One ends up "breaking" something somewhere with such fixes but it doesn't mean they are impossible or unviable.

 

I have yet to see a viable suggestion alone these lines that offers any advantages of any significance. Indeed, all I've ever seen over the *years* of watching debates covering this subject is... the debates.

 

Much like your post here. Asserting there's a solution is meaningless. I don't believe you, I think you're more interested in further non-constructive posting in this or similar threads.

 

Produce and present a solution instead.

 

I'm of the opinion that those pushing for changes fall into one of two groups.

 

1. Brilliant Whiners. They enjoy finding break points that would never appear in 99% of the typical games. But finding them makes them feel smart, and they have to prove it's a problem to everyone else.

 

2. Clueless Seekers. They want the perfect game, defined not as a fun and workable game, but rather as some unattainable and generally personal goal. Oddly enough they never come with a workable solution themselves. Instead they offer wishfully thinking and 'deep' thoughtful review of concepts.

 

 

Those requiring change who don't fall into those two groups have either a workable modification of the existing game, or have moved to a different one.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Hero is broken

 

what about the people who have contemplated the problem and realized they aren't brilliant enough to come up with a solution on thier own? Or who want help doing so? Why not have Brilliant seekers? Who are smart enough to find a break point and then try to think of a way to change it, but have no solution yet.

 

Not everything that doesn't come up in most games isn't worth seeking out, and not everyone is capable of making a change where they desire one.

 

Besides if it leads to no solution then this is much like the game itself, a thought exercise. What's wrong with thought exercises?

 

Personally I would like an answer to the scale question. I do have instances where it would come up, and it would help scale down the dice I have to roll and some pretty messy fudging.

 

The other problem I have with these classifications is that those who offer deep thought aren't clueless unless they offer something that is completely a$$backwards, or thoughtless, or wrong. Clueless whiners and Brilliant seekers occur.

 

No harm, no foul. Have fun discussing theory and philosophy too fox. Cause all of the people in the world who ever have are just brilliant whiners too, who come up with no real solutions other than making people think. Which is comendable in and of itself.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Why not have Brilliant seekers? Who are smart enough to find a break point and then try to think of a way to change it' date=' but have no solution yet.[/quote']

 

Finding break points in games does not take brilliance. And those asking for help generally find no need to argue for the length of this thread and the previous threads I've seen in last couple months on this site.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Finding break points in games does not take brilliance. And those asking for help generally find no need to argue for the length of this thread and the previous threads I've seen in last couple months on this site.

 

IMO a brilliant person is one who thinks of something that most people don't on a level that most people can't and does it well. But that wasn't the point. The point was that intelligent people can find a flaw in the system and soend years trying to figure out how to change it. Discussing for lengths the reasons why it should be changed, what other people think about it, how they would choose to change it, or even if it actually needs to be changed, is a viable step toward finding a solution to that flaw. They don't have to already have a solution of be good points either.

 

Arguing can lead to creative thought. It can also lead to red faces and frustration. Besides, an arguement usually denotes hostility. This is more like a discussion or a debate, than an actual argument.

 

Besides, the process is rewarding in and of itself, and I find such things interesting to read. Especially since I've been on both sides.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Specifically' date=' it's impossible in a EXP system to fix these scale issues.[/quote']

You are going to have to explain that more for me.

 

What is it about an exponential system that makes these problems impossible to fix?

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Besides' date=' the process is rewarding in and of itself, and I find such things interesting to read. Especially since I've been on both sides.[/quote']

 

You and other must, for these exchanges have been repeated without change it seems on a monthly basis.

 

As for your hopes of finding a solution, years of watching such as yourself at work convinces me of one thing. No work gets done. It's all about repeating the same words, if in different order.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I'm surprised you guys never thought of this.

 

If you simply give the Earth 75% resistant Damage Reduction, at 89 Body, that means it would take 712 pts of actual Body damage to completely destroy it! With a few pts of Regeneration (to represent Gravity trying to reform the earth) it would take all of that in just a few hits to keep the Earth from maintaining its form.

 

Simple really.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hero is broken

 

"Emergency Blow' date='" hmm...? I guess all the rumors I heard, were true. [/quote']

 

You have no idea.

 

Were you ever stationed at Bangor?

 

Nope. Bangor is a ballistic missile sub base. I was on an attack sub stationed at San Diego.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I have yet to see a viable suggestion alone these lines that offers any advantages of any significance. Indeed, all I've ever seen over the *years* of watching debates covering this subject is... the debates.

 

Much like your post here. Asserting there's a solution is meaningless. I don't believe you, I think you're more interested in further non-constructive posting in this or similar threads.

 

Produce and present a solution instead.

 

I'm of the opinion that those pushing for changes fall into one of two groups.

 

1. Brilliant Whiners. They enjoy finding break points that would never appear in 99% of the typical games. But finding them makes them feel smart, and they have to prove it's a problem to everyone else.

 

2. Clueless Seekers. They want the perfect game, defined not as a fun and workable game, but rather as some unattainable and generally personal goal. Oddly enough they never come with a workable solution themselves. Instead they offer wishfully thinking and 'deep' thoughtful review of concepts.

 

 

Those requiring change who don't fall into those two groups have either a workable modification of the existing game, or have moved to a different one.

You're right, posting with you is non-constructive, I'll be sure to put you on ignore now, thank you for pointing that out.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Hero is broken

 

You and other must, for these exchanges have been repeated without change it seems on a monthly basis.

 

As for your hopes of finding a solution, years of watching such as yourself at work convinces me of one thing. No work gets done. It's all about repeating the same words, if in different order.

 

I never said I didn't have a solution

 

I just said I didn't have one that satisfied me.

I do have house rules for the situation they are discussing, as well as for a slew of other things and I have used them before (so count me in the 1% where this dicussion would apply). Work does get done, I have some new concepts on my desk at home slong with character sheets, concept art, and tons of other things. Sometimes I even make new rules or write out possible new concepts after reading other's discussions due to insired creativity. I don't use them all though.

 

And while there is some repeating there is also plenty of new thought. (I guess you must hate philosophy)

 

Sorry you've never seen it (the work getting done I mean), but then I'm not sure I buy that, especially for all the things you spend so long talking about or the house rules or modifications you always talk about having.

 

 

 

but eh.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

You and other must, for these exchanges have been repeated without change it seems on a monthly basis.

 

As for your hopes of finding a solution, years of watching such as yourself at work convinces me of one thing. No work gets done. It's all about repeating the same words, if in different order.

I think you've mis-understood what is going on.

 

For myself it is about understanding where other people are coming from on these issues.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

You and other must, for these exchanges have been repeated without change it seems on a monthly basis.

 

As for your hopes of finding a solution, years of watching such as yourself at work convinces me of one thing. No work gets done. It's all about repeating the same words, if in different order.

 

Fox, if you truly felt this way, you wouldn't be posting on the thread... unless you were trolling. I won't be reporting you to the moderators, but in case you weren't aware, this is trolling. Take it from me -- you troll for a thread-full of people, you get a PM from Simon or Ben Seeman.

 

While it's true I have asked, "Why are we doing this? What's the point?" I really wanted an answer, and I got several. You're just trolling -- so please quit it.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

What is it about an exponential system that makes these problems impossible to fix?

 

The whole point of a EXP system is to create the problems you're attempting to correct.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

The whole point of a EXP system is to create the problems you're attempting to correct.

I still don't understand, you are obviously going to have to explain that a bit better. (maybe with some examples)

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Fox' date=' if you truly felt this way, you wouldn't be posting on the thread... [/quote']

 

I'm getting ready to exit the thread, and explaining why.

 

The first few circles of this I was willing to see if anything new was going to come up. One never knows.

 

It's now reached the point where it's clear that there is no real effort to correct anything, nor does it appear to be even remotely likely that there will be such an effort.

 

So, I'm pulling out- and letting you know what I think of the wasted time. Someone PM me if there is any real mechanical output.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I still don't understand' date=' you are obviously going to have to explain that a bit better. (maybe with some examples)[/quote']

 

 

Email me.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I'm surprised you guys never thought of this.

 

If you simply give the Earth 75% resistant Damage Reduction, at 89 Body, that means it would take 712 pts of actual Body damage to completely destroy it! With a few pts of Regeneration (to represent Gravity trying to reform the earth) it would take all of that in just a few hits to keep the Earth from maintaining its form.

 

Simple really.

In another game, soap opera sci-fi, built on Hero, I used a system whereby the size difference between attacker and defender was taken into account for this sort of scaling purpose. When attacking a larger target, one point of BOD is subtracted per size level difference. A minimum of 1 BOD is inflicted, unless the difference is 10 or greater, in which case 1 BOD is only inflicted if, on a d10 roll, the roll is equal to or greater than the size difference divided by 5, dropping any fraction. For example, if the Size Level difference is 11, 1 BOD is inflicted on a d10 roll of 2 or better as 11 divided by 5 equals 2 (with the fraction dropped). A Size Level difference of 19 would require a d10 roll of 3 or better (19/5 = 2 with the fraction dropped), and so on. This means that a Size Level difference of 55 inhibits any real damage at all.

 

This isn't at all that well done for a normal Hero game, but I'd extrapolate from area of damage to something vaguely like this in theory if I felt it were necessary for a campaign.

 

Systemically speaking, I think you have some sort of order of magnitude measure regarding attacks and targets, but that does involve another sub-system, one only rarely useful.

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

You have no idea.

I'll try not to let my mind wander...

Nope. Bangor is a ballistic missile sub base. I was on an attack sub stationed at San Diego.

Really? I swear I met a guy that was stationed there, who was on an attack sub... oh well. It doesn't really matter.