Hero is broken

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Email me.

OK, message sent.

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Email me.

OK' date=' message sent.[/quote']Ooooo... drama on the "HERO is Broken" thread.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I swear I met a guy that was stationed there' date=' who was on an attack sub... oh well. It doesn't really matter.[/quote']

 

Likely you did. There are probably a few attack subs stationed at Bangor. Ballistic Missile subs often get escorted by attack subs, so that only makes sense.

 

San Diego is only for attack subs however, though occasionally a Ballistic Missile sub will dock there for supplies and whatnot (give the crew a break) but there are none stationed there.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Getting back to the old line of discussion. . . .

 

It is, whether a "mile" is the breaking point or not. Somewhere, there is a breaking point from a logical viewpoint, although when it comes to character-character combat it's even trickier since we have source material examples such as the Atom and the like. All that is clear on this front is that we know when the Atom is at subatomic level, he can't hurt people (directly), although at extremely tiny levels but > atomic particle size, with his high density, he can.

 

I couldn't say when the last time this has been an issue, though. I've had some gigantic characters but have felt they remained in a range where mano-y-mano ought to function normally.

Lets say that the Atom could generate a major pulse of energy (enough to effect the normal world). Do you think that the energy would simply vanish, or would it spread out and have an impact on the larger world?

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Ooooo... drama on the "HERO is Broken" thread.

Hey, I just follow the argument where-ever it goes.

 

Since he made the offer it seemed like the next logical step. If he'll allow it, I'll share the results of any conversation here on this thread.

 

Although it seems like it would just be easier for him to stay in the conversation.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I think you've mis-understood what is going on.

 

For myself it is about understanding where other people are coming from on these issues.

I can see the quote as those aren't ignore-able, and such a statement astounds me, when we're talking about something like this and not politics or religion. I can speak only for myself. I have made changes and gained understanding according to some illuminations on these and other boards. I've changed my mind on a number of fronts. I hope everyone here has similar experiences, and I think anyone who doesn't probably needs to question their own ability to receive and analyze incoming communication.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Getting back to the old line of discussion. . . .

 

 

Lets say that the Atom could generate a major pulse of energy (enough to effect the normal world). Do you think that the energy would simply vanish, or would it spread out and have an impact on the larger world?

Depends. I left that out but implied it with the "directly" statement. I think that atomic-pulse thing is sort of like a shockwave. As to whether it would affect the world, I think it's purely a matter of a hypothetical power in a setting that departs too much from reality to make an a priori statement of how it "should" work.

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Likely you did. There are probably a few attack subs stationed at Bangor. Ballistic Missile subs often get escorted by attack subs, so that only makes sense.

 

San Diego is only for attack subs however, though occasionally a Ballistic Missile sub will dock there for supplies and whatnot (give the crew a break) but there are none stationed there.

Life is a constant learning process. Thanks. Do you guys still hot-rack? I've slept with a few hot-rack, but I've never slept in one. Just curious...

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Depends. I left that out but implied it with the "directly" statement. I think that atomic-pulse thing is sort of like a shockwave. As to whether it would affect the world' date=' I think it's purely a matter of a hypothetical power in a setting that departs too much from reality to make an a priori statement of how it "should" work.[/quote']

Yeah, I'm not really happy about using the Atom as an example.

 

As I said before, if it is an argument about how things work in the real world, energy does not just vanish. An energy blast with enough energy to destroy the whole universe, is not just going to vanish after taking out one hex.

 

Nor do I see the justification from an "in-game" perspective. Especially a game like HERO, where if you want an effect, you have to pay for it. So I have problems with some number of points of growth granting you absolute immunity to all non-area-effect attack.

 

 

However, I do believe that there is a big difference between allowing Grond to destroy the Earth with several Haymakers, and allowing a 200d6 EB to destroy the Earth.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Yeah, I'm not really happy about using the Atom as an example.

 

As I said before, if it is an argument about how things work in the real world, energy does not just vanish. An energy blast with enough energy to destroy the whole universe, is not just going to vanish after taking out one hex.

 

Nor do I see the justification from an "in-game" perspective. Especially a game like HERO, where if you want an effect, you have to pay for it. So I have problems with some number of points of growth granting you absolute immunity to all non-area-effect attack.

 

 

However, I do believe that there is a big difference between allowing Grond to destroy the Earth with several Haymakers, and allowing a 200d6 EB to destroy the Earth.

Right, but let's be practical. How would a player conduct a character of such mammoth proportions? Similarly, when such a mammoth thing is introduced, it's normally something that is constructed specially and these issues don't really come up as one defines it (like any character) with as much BOD as desired.

 

The point simply being that these things DO scale out of the system as it's designed, but there's a good reason for that. Not saying it shouldn't be resolved, but that this is why it tends to be a low priority.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Right, but let's be practical. How would a player conduct a character of such mammoth proportions? Similarly, when such a mammoth thing is introduced, it's normally something that is constructed specially and these issues don't really come up as one defines it (like any character) with as much BOD as desired.

 

The point simply being that these things DO scale out of the system as it's designed, but there's a good reason for that. Not saying it shouldn't be resolved, but that this is why it tends to be a low priority.

Given that the system is Universal, I'd like it to handle as wide a range as possible, including interactions between human sized characters and planets.

 

Assuming that we are in the realm of suggesting changes to the system, it seems to me that these problems would all be solved by making sure that damage does not stack in a linear manner. That way, even one million attacks of a 250 point level wouldn't do a tiny fraction of the damage of one single 500 point attack. And one million attacks of a 250 point level would not have any siginificant effect on the Earth.

 

Basically having high enough BODY rating would make you effectively immune to attacks beneath a given level of power (it is not that such attacks would bounce off, but their actual effect would be so small as to amount to nothing in game terms. The damage of such an attack would be like a drop of water in the ocean.)

 

What that means is that you have established scope of impact for each level of power.

 

You would not be able use a 250 point attack to damage the Earth in any significant way, but you could use it to damage a mountain.

 

You could not use a 60 point attack to damage a mountain, but you could use it to attack a hex of rock.

 

 

Such a system would be fully exponential, and it would work to establish the scale that you seem to be going for. (Just make sure that planet scale characters have attacks on a 350+ point range.)

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

But wouldn't things like Damage Reduction and Defenses also be a feasible method of protection and perhaps accurate? (just to offer that up in terms of the planet/big "stuff" realm)

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

But wouldn't things like Damage Reduction and Defenses also be a feasible method of protection and perhaps accurate? (just to offer that up in terms of the planet/big "stuff" realm)

My way suggested above would automatically make Planet sized characters immune to normal scale attacks because of their huge amount of BODY. Its something that is already built into the system (the +1 BODY per X2 Mass would make large objects immune to normal scale attacks), you wouldn't have to buy a bunch of extra special powers for your planet sized character.

 

Also, defenses can be defeated.

 

My way, you could not do significant damage to a Planet (or even Mt. Everest) with a light sabre. Which is something that might happen if you went the defense route.

 

The damage reduction would make it harder to damage the Mega Large target with the light sabre. But it would still be far easier than it should be.

 

My way works with the existing system, it just takes it to a fully exponential state, and you'll never have to worry about the "light-sabre vs planet" thing.

[Vorsch]

Re: Hero is broken

 

If i can make a couple op points.

 

Interactions between characters and planets / very large objects happen in comics all the time. Thor takes on celestial/ surfer takes on EGO/ any number of superman comics. And in these comics large but normal punches and EB destroy large objects.

 

It is not a pointless discussion.

 

Also Def of a object should scale with its body, and this def should be hardened so no cheasy 1d6rka doble pen attacks can destroy a battleship. So def added from size increase is always effective. Say 1 def per 2xdouble mass + def given by construction material.

 

+0 100kg

+1 400kg

+2 1.6 tons

+3 6.4 tons

+4 25 tons

+5 100 tons Tank

+10 100Kt Battleship

+20 100Gt asteroid

+40 Earth

 

Now it takes 50d6 attacks to hurt the earh, i submit these should not be common, str of 250 is silver age superman and even that should only effect mountain sized objects

[Phil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

If we're talking real world, do we have to consider the force necessary to trigger nuclear fusion or fission within the core of the Earth itself? To destroy the planet, you dont have to literally destroy every bit of it, just hit it hard enough to get things moving inside. According to a rather cool website that calculates Impact effects, an asteroid would need to be at least a few thousand miles in diameter to destroy the earth (turn it to liquid but not disintegrated - does that sound like 0 BOD?). Crikey. That's a lot more than I thought it might be.

 

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero is broken

 

If i can make a couple op points.

 

Interactions between characters and planets / very large objects happen in comics all the time. Thor takes on celestial/ surfer takes on EGO/ any number of superman comics. And in these comics large but normal punches and EB destroy large objects.

 

It is not a pointless discussion.

 

Also Def of a object should scale with its body, and this def should be hardened so no cheasy 1d6rka doble pen attacks can destroy a battleship. So def added from size increase is always effective. Say 1 def per 2xdouble mass + def given by construction material.

 

+0 100kg

+1 400kg

+2 1.6 tons

+3 6.4 tons

+4 25 tons

+5 100 tons Tank

+10 100Kt Battleship

+20 100Gt asteroid

+40 Earth

 

Now it takes 50d6 attacks to hurt the earh, i submit these should not be common, str of 250 is silver age superman and even that should only effect mountain sized objects

Actually, that's a rather good suggestion. 10 inch thick steel isn't just harder to destroy than 1 inch, it's also much harder to penetrate in ther first place. It's totally logical for additional mass to increase the defenses. I don't agree with your scale, but that's a triviality.

 

I think should take a much bigger attack than 50d6 to injure the Earth or other planetary sized body in any significant way. Break a mountain? Sure. Break Earth? No way. That should take hundreds or even thousands of dice.

 

There is another aspect of this entire debate that seems to have been overlooked: We're not arguing a physics textbook; we're discussing a role-playing game. The only relevant arguments should focus on how such huge attacks integrate with role playing such attacks and their effect on the game. Once a certain level is reached, we're no longer discussing power-builds, we're moving into the realm of plot devices and GM fiat. There is absolutely no reason to quantify the Death Star beam in Hero terms if we know that 1) It destroys planets in one shot 2) None of my characters can survive getting hit with it 3) All of my character's loved ones will die if it hits his planet. The only important thing is how the PCs will role-play stopping it (or failing to stop it) from hitting their world. If it still kills Leia Organa's family on Alderan, it's irrelevant whether it's 100d6 or 100,000,000,000,000d6.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I have yet to see a viable suggestion alone these lines that offers any advantages of any significance. Indeed, all I've ever seen over the *years* of watching debates covering this subject is... the debates.

 

Much like your post here. Asserting there's a solution is meaningless. I don't believe you, I think you're more interested in further non-constructive posting in this or similar threads.

 

Produce and present a solution instead.

 

I'm of the opinion that those pushing for changes fall into one of two groups.

 

1. Brilliant Whiners. They enjoy finding break points that would never appear in 99% of the typical games. But finding them makes them feel smart, and they have to prove it's a problem to everyone else.

 

2. Clueless Seekers. They want the perfect game, defined not as a fun and workable game, but rather as some unattainable and generally personal goal. Oddly enough they never come with a workable solution themselves. Instead they offer wishfully thinking and 'deep' thoughtful review of concepts.

 

 

Those requiring change who don't fall into those two groups have either a workable modification of the existing game, or have moved to a different one.

 

Or I suggest another option:

 

People that don't see certain parts of the system as broken because it isn't actually broken. They grasp the core concept of the game as it was intended to be and do not bother sweating the details of the few parts of the game that exist in the extremities of the system in which the rules, like the laws of physics, break down.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Or I suggest another option:

 

People that don't see certain parts of the system as broken because it isn't actually broken. They grasp the core concept of the game as it was intended to be and do not bother sweating the details of the few parts of the game that exist in the extremities of the system in which the rules, like the laws of physics, break down.

 

For a game that's so horribly broken in theory, it seems to work very well in practice, at least in my experience. You'd think, given the hiatus between 4e and 5e, that there would be far fewer gamers who stuck it out instead of going to a workable system

 

You can argue the system "should be able to" handle planetbusters since we have such doomsday devices in Sci Fi and Ego the Living Planet in the comics, but these are rare, and generally more in the nature of plot devices than character vs character combat.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I think should take a much bigger attack than 50d6 to injure the Earth or other planetary sized body in any significant way. Break a mountain? Sure. Break Earth? No way. That should take hundreds or even thousands of dice.

 

There is another aspect of this entire debate that seems to have been overlooked: We're not arguing a physics textbook; we're discussing a role-playing game. The only relevant arguments should focus on how such huge attacks integrate with role playing such attacks and their effect on the game. Once a certain level is reached, we're no longer discussing power-builds, we're moving into the realm of plot devices and GM fiat. There is absolutely no reason to quantify the Death Star beam in Hero terms if we know that 1) It destroys planets in one shot 2) None of my characters can survive getting hit with it 3) All of my character's loved ones will die if it hits his planet. The only important thing is how the PCs will role-play stopping it (or failing to stop it) from hitting their world. If it still kills Leia Organa's family on Alderan, it's irrelevant whether it's 100d6 or 100,000,000,000,000d6.

It would really depend upon the campaign. In a cosmic level supers campaign these things might be issues.

 

These things might also be issues in an mega-high-tech game, where the characters could work with super-massive weapons.

 

I see an rpg as a very simplified physics book. Physics allows us to tell what would happen in a given hypothetical situation, IMO that is also the purpose of the rules of the game.

 

There are rules-lite games which involve a great deal of hand-waving and almost every thing is left up to GM fiat. But I like HERO because it is more comprehensive than many of those other games. I do expect an actual system for assigning BODY, and in a Universal Game (like HERO) the system should be effective for all objects--even Planets.

[tesuji]

Re: Hero is broken

 

 

It would really depend upon the campaign. In a cosmic level supers campaign these things might be issues.

 

These things might also be issues in an mega-high-tech game, where the characters could work with super-massive weapons.

It indeed could. Which would mean that a sourcebook for those types of campaigns should put a lot more emphasis, thought and detail into "attacks that can destroy planets" than the basic sourcebook does.

 

Take martial arts for instance. The core rules book gives you general rules enough to do some basic martial arts, hardly a comprehensive set of maneuvers and options by any measure.

 

The various ninja hero or UMA sourcebooks expand this and add more detail to allow for the areas where the core basics are inadequate.

 

I would sugget that if enough campaigns dealt with planetbusting issues, if it were common enough in the genres to warrant its own sourcebook, we would be seeing "Death Star HERO" coming out at gencon.

 

but the vast majority of campaigns don't get into that detail on this subject, so page count, design time etc is probablly better spent on the things people will use, as opposed to what they will fret over when bored.

 

How many sessions of games you ran have been harmed or disrupted by inexact planet busting mechanics?

 

I see an rpg as a very simplified physics book. Physics allows us to tell what would happen in a given hypothetical situation, IMO that is also the purpose of the rules of the game.

The VERY SIMNPLIFIED is the key. Simplifying planet busting mechanics that will almost never come up is fine.

There are rules-lite games which involve a great deal of hand-waving and almost every thing is left up to GM fiat. But I like HERO because it is more comprehensive than many of those other games. I do expect an actual system for assigning BODY, and in a Universal Game (like HERO) the system should be effective for all objects--even Planets.

but you want the RPG to be VERY SIMPLIFIED. Can you imagine an ACCURATE system to figure out a formulaic approach, a system, to determine a value of durability/unkillability that covers all objects being VERY SIMPLE?

 

Lets look at it this way... if a system could be invented that handle determining body scores for any object up to planetary sized objects accurately took 5 more pages to do, which 5 pages of rules in the current 5er would you cut in its place either for "page count" or for "design time"? if we cut the focus rules and the charges rules to gain the object body for planets and get it right, would your game improve?

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

It indeed could. Which would mean that a sourcebook for those types of campaigns should put a lot more emphasis, thought and detail into "attacks that can destroy planets" than the basic sourcebook does.

 

Take martial arts for instance. The core rules book gives you general rules enough to do some basic martial arts, hardly a comprehensive set of maneuvers and options by any measure.

 

The various ninja hero or UMA sourcebooks expand this and add more detail to allow for the areas where the core basics are inadequate.

 

I would sugget that if enough campaigns dealt with planetbusting issues, if it were common enough in the genres to warrant its own sourcebook, we would be seeing "Death Star HERO" coming out at gencon.

 

but the vast majority of campaigns don't get into that detail on this subject, so page count, design time etc is probablly better spent on the things people will use, as opposed to what they will fret over when bored.

 

How many sessions of games you ran have been harmed or disrupted by inexact planet busting mechanics?

 

 

The VERY SIMNPLIFIED is the key. Simplifying planet busting mechanics that will almost never come up is fine.

 

but you want the RPG to be VERY SIMPLIFIED. Can you imagine an ACCURATE system to figure out a formulaic approach, a system, to determine a value of durability/unkillability that covers all objects being VERY SIMPLE?

 

Lets look at it this way... if a system could be invented that handle determining body scores for any object up to planetary sized objects accurately took 5 more pages to do, which 5 pages of rules in the current 5er would you cut in its place either for "page count" or for "design time"? if we cut the focus rules and the charges rules to gain the object body for planets and get it right, would your game improve?

 

You are making this waaay more complex than it has to be. HERO already has a method for relatively accurately determining the BODY of any object from a bicycle to a planet.

 

Just extend the Object Body Chart to anywhere you want to go. Figure out the mass of your object and use +1 BODY per X 2 Mass. That method works fine for me, I don't see what your problem with it is.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hero is broken

 

You are making this waaay more complex than it has to be. HERO already has a method for relatively accurately determining the BODY of any object from a bicycle to a planet.

 

Just extend the Object Body Chart to anywhere you want to go. Figure out the mass of your object and use +1 BODY per X 2 Mass. That method works fine for me, I don't see what your problem with it is.

 

Except that it isn't an accurate reflection of anything. Using a simple relationship with mass to determine how much damage it takes to destroy something is grossly inaccurate.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Hero is broken

 

HERO is House broken. It goes on paper.

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Except that it isn't an accurate reflection of anything. Using a simple relationship with mass to determine how much damage it takes to destroy something is grossly inaccurate.

It isn't an accurate reflection of anything?

 

Come on... at least try to be somewhat reasonable. All you are doing is being contrary. It's like you are having some kind of 'debate-tantrum'...

 

Do you need attention?

 

 

If an object is complex, fragile, durable, fiercely desires to live, has a death-wish, or is otherwise 'special' in some way... this will be reflected in its BODY. But BODY is also affected by size. Period.

 

The Object BODY Table (pg 449 5er) has three different choices for you: Living or vehicle; Unliving; and Complex. Somewhere among these three options, you should be able to place just about anything you can think of. After that, identify the objects BODY by refrencing its size... then adjust this number depending on what ever variables you think apply.

 

Are you suggesting that this isn't an accurate reflection of reality?

 

DEF relates to both density and material strength, and is another factor that determines how much damage will be required to break an object. Does this knowledge help you out at all? Do you think you could build a piano, now? A computer? An ice sculpture? Anything?

 

What is it, exactly, that you think should be done? Would you like more complicated charts? Do you think the HERO System should be set on fire? Do you need a time out?

[Kristopher]

Re: Hero is broken

 

It isn't an accurate reflection of anything?

 

Come on... at least try to be somewhat reasonable. All you are doing is being contrary. It's like you are having some kind of 'debate-tantrum'...

 

Do you need attention?

 

 

If an object is complex, fragile, durable, fiercely desires to live, has a death-wish, or is otherwise 'special' in some way... this will be reflected in its BODY. But BODY is also affected by size. Period.

 

The Object BODY Table (pg 449 5er) has three different choices for you: Living or vehicle; Unliving; and Complex. Somewhere among these three options, you should be able to place just about anything you can think of. After that, identify the objects BODY by refrencing its size... then adjust this number depending on what ever variables you think apply.

 

Are you suggesting that this isn't an accurate reflection of reality?

 

DEF relates to both density and material strength, and is another factor that determines how much damage will be required to break an object. Does this knowledge help you out at all? Do you think you could build a piano, now? A computer? An ice sculpture? Anything?

 

What is it, exactly, that you think should be done? Would you like more complicated charts? Do you think the HERO System should be set on fire? Do you need a time out?

 

Wow. Was that about that thread over in NGD?

 

 

 

Anyway, a supertanker is more massive than an Iowa-class battleship, IIRC. They're both vehicles, so by strict mass-to-BODY ratio logic, the supertanker should have more BODY.

 

Which do you think should have more BODY?

 

 

Strictly tying the ability to absorb damage to mass is a mistake in the same way that strictly tying the ability to inflict damage to energy, force, or momentum delivered is a mistake. It's a tempting but fundamentally flawed simplification that ignores most of what's actually going on during impacts and other damage-inducing events.