Characteristic power NCM

[Jtuxyan]

The Characteristic power is not effected by normal characteristic maxima, and other then that is identical to buying characteristics in every way, including price.

 

Isn't this overpowered? With this, why would anyone buy stats normally? Or is there something I've missed.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Or is there something I've missed.

 

Yeah, the GM saying "What is the justification for this really cheesy build you have. Buy the stats normally!"

[Lemurion]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

The Characteristic power is not effected by normal characteristic maxima, and other then that is identical to buying characteristics in every way, including price.

 

Isn't this overpowered? With this, why would anyone buy stats normally? Or is there something I've missed.

 

The Characteristic power is how you build Ultra Boy. Basically it's for when you want to give a character limited or conditional Characteristics. Something like a super-strength setting on a powered suit's multipower, or an only in hero ID characteristic boost.

 

The rest of the time buy them normally

[Sean Waters]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

The difference really is one of perception. I would strongly argue though that you should not buy characteristics as powers without there being some limitation.

 

For instance, I can see Barry 'LeftHand' Loughren built as a 15 STR bruiser but he lost a hand (his left) and it was replaced by a prosthetic he has tinkered with to give him a superhuman grip.

 

He buys +15 STR as a power, No figured (-1/2) OIF (-1/2) Only for gripping/squeezing (-1/2) for 6 points - meaning he has a 30 STR grip with his left hand.

 

Might even let him put it in a multipower with a killing attack, say:

 

15: Lefthand multipower

1u Gripping strength

1u 1d5 HKA (2d6 w/STR)

 

That seems fairer than making him pay double points for the limited extra strength.

 

the other way you could use this is to say that, in a given campaign, superpowers are only ever gained from having the mutant gene. Anti-mutant tech is quite common - you can buy a mutant power drain gun - that would strip out any strength bought as a power but would have no effect on either a normal human or a mutant's unenhanced strength.

 

Point is the existence of the posibbility in the system enhances the gameplay and experience.

 

Of course it CAN be abused - so can lots of bits of the system - but we think you look like a trustworthy sort.

 

One final point, for those of you who know me and how much I personally moan about things being unbalanced and wrongly priced and generally completely unfair...I don't consider this to be unbalanced point wise or gameplaywise unless it is abused. There's plenty of stuff in the system that is unbalanced without having any kind of abuse applied. Long may it be so. I mean, what would I spend all these hours doing if the game was perfect?

[Daeger]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

I think what he's trying to ask is, what's the point of the Normal Characteristic Maxima if the Characteristics power isn't affected by it, because you don't HAVE to specify some outside source like power armor. I would know to know as well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Choice.

[Daeger]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Choice.

..? I don't think this is about choices, I think it's about having a limiting gameplay mechanic that can be so easily avoided it might as well not be there.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

I think what he's trying to ask is' date=' what's the point of the Normal Characteristic Maxima if the Characteristics power isn't affected by it, because you don't HAVE to specify some outside source like power armor. I would know to know as well.[/quote']

 

Most GMs would insist on some explination on why the characteristic is purchased as a power. It's one of those things that requires a lot of GM auditing. Usually if there is not SFX justification for buying characteristics as powers, I disallow it. As I would assume most GMs. But the capability is there for those occasions when it makes sense (such as the example Sean used).

 

A superpowered character could put 200 of his poins into an Energy Blast, what stops that from happening. The GM. Same kind of thing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Most GMs would insist on some explination on why the characteristic is purchased as a power. It's one of those things that requires a lot of GM auditing. Usually if there is not SFX justification for buying characteristics as powers' date=' I disallow it. As I would assume most GMs. But the capability is there for those occasions when it makes sense (such as the example Sean used).[/quote']

 

Why, because it has a Limitation, LM. Let's look at a couple of possible limitations:

 

"not if allows hair to be cut"; -1/4 at best, but certainly has a precedent

 

"requires exceptional effort; x 2 END" Hey, if I get my +10 STR for 7 points instead of 20, I can buy +6 END and +5 REC for the 13 points saved - that will cover the extra 4 END my 4 SPD character will spend every turn, and then some.

 

Both limitations sound reasonable prima facie, but the result is a significant point savings if I can justify the STR as a power rather than a stat in an NCM game.

 

I would be more inclined to say ALL stats above 20, even when purchased as powers, are subject to NCM. That levels the playing field (until we buy adjustment powers, anyway )

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Why' date=' because it has a Limitation, LM. [/quote']

 

Sheesh.

 

My brain has been wrapped around working on my FH game for weeks, so that is where it is defaulted - where NCM is free.

 

*sigh*

 

 

Yeah, as limitation is it pretty cheesy in superhero games where you can use foci or whatnot to get around it. I don't even allow it in my SH games.

[pinecone]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Yeah I only like this as a "everybody gets it" type thing.....if you want to buy chars as powers, well just have a good reason. Oh and "because I will Rawk!" is not a good enough one..

[Daeger]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Well, Jtuxyan is my GM if you haven't guessed, and I didn't find much sense in the rule either. He's going to rule that Characteristics is subject to NCM.

 

Thank goodness for the Limited to Extra Limbs limitation.

[Vurbal]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

I think whether characteristic powers should be subject to NCM limits depends on the context. In a fantasy game where one player has to pay NCM cost for higher characteristics because he's a half giant I probably wouldn't consider it fair for a wizard to be able to avoid the extra cost because he raises his characteristics magically. OTOH in a cyberpunk game where everyone has access to implants that would raise characteristics to above NCM level I don't see a problem.

 

Where it becomes trickier is in games that don't use NCM as a default. As long as the characteristic powers aren't going to stop the NCM from being enough of a problem to justify the cost I don't see a problem. That might mean that the value of NCM should be adjusted for that character. It might also mean that the GM needs to put more emphasis on situations where NCM will be an issue.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Me, I see this more as an argument against NCM as a rule, myself. I tend to think that instead of a double cost in heroic level games, there should just be guidelines that amounts to a Stop Sign for any characteristic above "NCM."

 

Thus, if you want to surpass NCM, you'd need a good justification. Nonhuman race in a fantasy or sci-fi game? Sure, as long as the package deal for the race passes sniff test. "Its my schtick" in a action or pulp game? Sure, as long as they otherwise follow the schtick, and don't step on anyone else's.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Me, I see this more as an argument against NCM as a rule, myself. I tend to think that instead of a double cost in heroic level games, there should just be guidelines that amounts to a Stop Sign for any characteristic above "NCM."

 

Thus, if you want to surpass NCM, you'd need a good justification. Nonhuman race in a fantasy or sci-fi game? Sure, as long as the package deal for the race passes sniff test. "Its my schtick" in a action or pulp game? Sure, as long as they otherwise follow the schtick, and don't step on anyone else's.

 

I think this is more in keeping with the Hero ethos as I understand it that you can do everything but you shouldn't.

 

I quite like the NCM mechanic but it does set Hero very firmly in the 'standard human template' and I'm not sure that is a good thing.

 

Any GM who allows rampant abuse in character creation will reap the whirlwind later on in the game, and any player who tries it on should have a Kansas house fall on them. Abuse is not difficult in Hero: 1 pip killing attack, one hex AoE 0 END autofire x 80 double penetrating costs 32 points and will hit and kill almost anything, but I sincerely hope thre is not a player of GM anywhere who wouldn't sneer and laugh derisively if that appeared on a charatcer sheet.

[stmichaeldet]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Seems fine to me.

 

In an NCM campaign, it's there for limited or exceptional-circumstance characteristics that would otherwise exeed the maxima, as explained above.

 

In a non-NCM campaign, a character should only have NCM if it's a part of their character concept, and therefore presumably has no plans to be monkeying about with high-end characteristics.

 

And in either case, abuses should be handled by the GM; again, as above.

[Lucius]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Didn't read any posts. Don't really need to, for once.

 

The fundamental problem is simply that Normal Characteristic Maxima is a bad idea that should be ignored in the short term and deleted from future editions in the long term.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests I link to previous discussions of the same topic. Maybe I will.

[Insaniac99]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Didn't read any posts. Don't really need to, for once.

 

The fundamental problem is simply that Normal Characteristic Maxima is a bad idea that should be ignored in the short term and deleted from future editions in the long term.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests I link to previous discussions of the same topic. Maybe I will.

 

I disagree, NCM is a good rule for certain campaigns not right for everything, but very nice to have as an option.

[OddHat]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Didn't read any posts. Don't really need to, for once.

 

The fundamental problem is simply that Normal Characteristic Maxima is a bad idea that should be ignored in the short term and deleted from future editions in the long term.

 

Agreed, though the arguments on this have been done to frickin' death with neither side budging.

 

However, to clarify, I'm all for people setting campaign appropriate limits. I just don't like the approach of "Here are the limits, but if you pay extra points you can ignore them". Of course, GURPS did this all the time with the Unusual Background advantage, so obviously some gamers like the concept.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Agreed' date=' though the arguments on this have been done to frickin' death with neither side budging.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't say neither side budging. I remember being the lone voice in the woods against the "Defender Exploit". Now.... warms my heart, it does.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

..? I don't think this is about choices' date=' I think it's about having a limiting gameplay mechanic that can be so easily avoided it might as well not be there.[/quote']

 

Well, all the games I play in there's a GM, who has veto rights. Maybe your experience differs.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Didn't read any posts. Don't really need to, for once.

 

The fundamental problem is simply that Normal Characteristic Maxima is a bad idea that should be ignored in the short term and deleted from future editions in the long term.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests I link to previous discussions of the same topic. Maybe I will.

 

Disagree. NCM has its uses.

 

Basically in campaigns where NCM is expected (mandatory), Characters generally are not allowed unrestricted access to Powers -- which includes Characteristics as Powers.

 

What the Char as Powers not affected by NCM rule allows is characters with a normal secret id, and Powers that allow them to overcome that in their hero id (whether that is expressed literally with OIHID on the Char, or Focus, or Linked, or some other Limitation). It is very much a rule applicable to Superheroic campaigns.

 

Its a toolbox system; part of using it well is recognizing what certain tools are primarily designed for, and knowing when it makes sense to use them for whatever it is you are trying to do at the moment. If the tool's not right for the job at hand just dont use it.

[Daeger]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Uhm, you know, Characteristics can still be taken as a power even if NCM affects it, a lot of people are overlooking this detail. If you wanted to depict your armored suit heroic identity, let's say, 30 points of strength.

 

30 Character points, of course, if we're ignoring NCM as normal.

 

Obvious, Inaccessible, Unbreakable Focus depicts the power suit, let's say, Very Difficult to obtain new focus. That's a -1. Suddenly we're getting 30 strength for 15 points in a campaign that's supposed to have an NCM.

 

Now, tell me, what's the harm in simply saying Characteristics doubles up like everything else? By applying NCM to Characteristics, the base is 60 character points and the limitations put it down to 30 points - essentially the same cost of simply buying the strength in a superheroic game, but with limitations, as there should be.

 

Which sounds more balanced?

[Insaniac99]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

Uhm, you know, Characteristics can still be taken as a power even if NCM affects it, a lot of people are overlooking this detail. If you wanted to depict your armored suit heroic identity, let's say, 30 points of strength.

 

30 Character points, of course, if we're ignoring NCM as normal.

 

Obvious, Inaccessible, Unbreakable Focus depicts the power suit, let's say, Very Difficult to obtain new focus. That's a -1. Suddenly we're getting 30 strength for 15 points in a campaign that's supposed to have an NCM.

 

Now, tell me, what's the harm in simply saying Characteristics doubles up like everything else? By applying NCM to Characteristics, the base is 60 character points and the limitations put it down to 30 points - essentially the same cost of simply buying the strength in a superheroic game, but with limitations, as there should be.

 

Which sounds more balanced?

 

well the thing is that at least for my gaming group, the campaigns where we use NCM are in the 75+75 heroic range. it is in genre for a hero to have +5-10 str x2 end. as a push at will or another similiar genre trope its reasonable and not unbalanced because it is usualy only used in times of Dire Need (x2 end on STR is a big deal in heroic games in my experience) with NCM aplying to the power a simple genre ability starts taking up a large portion of the character's already very limited points

[Daeger]

Re: Characteristic power NCM

 

well the thing is that at least for my gaming group' date=' the campaigns where we use NCM are in the 75+75 heroic range. it is in genre for a hero to have +5-10 str x2 end. as a push at will or another similiar genre trope its reasonable and not unbalanced because it is usualy only used in times of Dire Need (x2 end on STR is a big deal in heroic games in my experience) with NCM aplying to the power a simple genre ability starts taking up a large portion of the character's already very limited points[/quote']

No more points than it would normally take to boost up Strength without the NCM, mind you. In this case, it just requires the powered suit, which is appropiate for a non-superheroic game.

 

And, we're going to be playing 75 points as well.