How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

[Haven Walkur]

My Hero character is a daughter of the Vision. Like him, she can control her own density (and there's a quick 'n' easy power for that), but unlike him, she can also affect the density of her opponents.

 

So please help me out here, all you bright boys and girls; how best to build this Density-altering attack power?

 

I'll decribe the different things I've been using to try and represent the Density-altering attack in italics. I'll underscore the problems I'm having with each approach, and I'll leave my questions in plain text.

 

I've been using 60 STR Telekinesis, Affects Whole Object, with the Limitation: Only to duplicate density effects, to represent the Density-altering attack power.

 

The problem is, an affected character can break out of TK using just raw STR...which seems anti-intuitive for a Density-altering attack.

 

Can anybody think of a way to build this Density-altering attack without using TK or another power with similar physical limitations?

 

Using multiple powers -- one to increase density, one to decrease -- would be fine, too. Apparently just using Density Increase, Usable as an Attack, is incredibly expensive...?

 

I've also tried using two Minor Transforms: Object into object too massive to move under own power/support own weight, both with the Partial advantage. One is a 6d6 attack, the other is 3d6, Uncontrolled, Continuous -- it's intended as a "fire and forget" power.

 

I like the idea of the Transforms -- especially the Uncontrolled, Continuous one -- but it seems that at 3d6 and 6d6, the Transforms are too small and hence too slow to take effect.... That means my character will use her power and her opponents will acquire the benefits of Density Increase (increased STR and PD/ED), increasing as the Transform progresses.

 

The bad guys won't become incapacitated until the Transforms are complete, and until then, my character will have a heap of new enemy bricks on her hands!

 

Can I even use Transform to immobilize the bad guys without giving them a STR boost in the meantime? Would taking the "Partial" advantage off the power and going for an "all-or-nothing" Transform -- with more dice, since Partial is a +1/2 advantage -- solve the problem?

 

Is there any way to get a progressive effect like Transform quickly, other than just upping the number of dice?

 

Would the "ultra-gravitate you until you can't move" Density-altering attack be better written up an an Entangle?

 

Thank-you for reading, and any help would be appreciated. This bloody power write-up is driving me nuts!

 

(Cross-posted to the Champions forum)

[gojira]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

Can I even use Transform to immobilize the bad guys without giving them a STR boost in the meantime? ...

 

Would the "ultra-gravitate you until you can't move" Density-altering attack be better written up an an Entangle?

 

Always reason backwards from effect. "You can't move" is an Entangle. Consider buying it AVLD to simulate Density, so they can't just STR their way out of it. Perhaps Power Defense should stop Ms. Vision's powers, so buy it vs that.

 

Ditto with the TK thing. Buy the TK AVLD Power Defense (or what ever you think appropriate) to prevent them from just making a STR roll to beat it.

[OddHat]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

AVLD or NND TK is a good idea. I'd allow it.

 

I once did a Density Increase power with Drain STR; as a special effect, every 5 points of STR drained meant that the target's weight had been doubled. To topple structures, you could use Drain Body with the same SFX. I did density reduction as Drain Body, PD, ED, and KB Resistance Simultaneously, with the SFX that draining 2 Body meant halving weight.

 

The positives and negatives of the weight changes seemed to even out enough that I didn't mind treating it as SFX.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

AVLD or NND TK is a good idea. I'd allow it.

 

I once did a Density Increase power with Drain STR; as a special effect, every 5 points of STR drained meant that the target's weight had been doubled. To topple structures, you could use Drain Body with the same SFX. I did density reduction as Drain Body, PD, ED, and KB Resistance Simultaneously, with the SFX that draining 2 Body meant halving weight.

 

The positives and negatives of the weight changes seemed to even out enough that I didn't mind treating it as SFX.

 

I was thinking much the same way you did, but you've actually worked it out already, so I'll just agree with you.

 

I agree.

[gojira]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

Maybe also you could Entangle vs BODY (as an AVLD), on the theory that Body is roughly mass and works for vehicles as well as people. An Entagle vs CON (again as AVLD) might work effect-wise, as really tough guys could push their way through the density increase.

 

Just some other ideas while I'm thinking about it. Maybe link one or more of these to the primary Density Increase power:

 

Change Environment. Make a DEX roll or fall down.

Change Environemnt. -X" to Running, Leaping, Flying, Swimming.

Drain Speed. Being heavier makes you slower...

Drain Running, Leaping, Flying, Swimming...

 

Ok that's about it for now!

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

I don't have it, but I know there is an issue of Digital Hero with rules for Entangles that work against stats other then STR... browsing through the site, looks like it's Issue# 35.

[secretID]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

The "usable on others" text specifically suggests entangle in this case, though I think the drain makes more sense. If it's important to have the target actually gain the weight (so no one else can lift him either), you could do density increase UOO with a big STR drain.

 

For the density decrease, you could do flight and/or desol, UOO, but like the density increase, you can't make the power cheaper by making it more limited (e.g., always on flight that can only be used to go straight up).

[sbarron]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

I would suggest just buying Density Increase, Usable as Attack. I'd then allow the player to choose whether they wanted to add the various elements to the Density Increase.

 

The character has paid for this power in full. So if they decided to not convey certain benefits to the recipient, it seems to me they should be able to do that, the same as if you bought a 12d6 EB, but only decided to use 6d6.

 

The power would end up looking like this, most likely...

 

He's Not Heavy, He's My Brother: Density Increase (6,400 kg mass, +6 PD/ED, -6" KB), Usable As Attack (+1) (60 Active Points).

 

I'd leave the +6 PD/ED, -6" KB in, because those to me seem linked to the higher density more closely than the increased STR. I'd still treat this as a constant power, with power defense as the defense.

 

I'd still need to figure out the effect of having a character weigh 6400 kgs at various STR levels. 10 STR guy would be pinned to the floor prone. 40 STR guy would probably be able to move around a little bit, say 1/2 movement. Pushing might be a good way to get in an action if pinned. 45 STR guy would be able to function normally, provided the floor could hold him up.

 

I don't know, that seems pretty potent. I'll have to think on it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

5ER (and possibly 5E as well) specifically states that Density Increase with UAA cannot increase a target's mass without also equally increasing the target's STR.

[teh bunneh]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

Always reason backwards from effect. "You can't move" is an Entangle. Consider buying it AVLD to simulate Density' date=' so they can't just STR their way out of it. Perhaps Power Defense should stop Ms. Vision's powers, so buy it vs that.[/quote']

 

Cool idea. Yeah, I'd allow it.

 

Bill.

(And since I'm the GM in Haven's game...)

[SpydirShellX]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

My opinion is that they should be able to strength their way out of it, only doiing that would only last for a turn at a time. They would need to make STR checks each turn in order to avoid being immobilized (or partial success might indicate only partial immobilization.

 

So I would go with the method used for the ice example in to book under change enviroment, but use strength instead of dex.

 

Change Enviroment 1" -(some number) STR. Useable as Attack (+1) Ranged (+1/2) Not AoE (-1/2)

 

 

UoA - So that you can 'stick' the CE to the character - think there was a darkness example that used this.

Not AoE - Using it to target only the character instead of the hex.

 

And if you wanted to add Crushing damage to the mix.

EB xd6 Continous(+1) Linked to CE:Density Increase (-1/2) RSR: Target Strength roll to resist (-1/2) Only up to crushing amount from own weight(-1/2)

 

Not sure what the RSR target strength roll or the weight limitation would be - guessing at 1/2 for each - don't have my book with me.

[Hyper-Man]

How to build a MASS-altering ATTACK?

 

What if the question was instead:

How to build a MASS-altering ATTACK?

 

Summon Bank Vault on top of target?

[BNakagawa]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

wasn't there a character in the Wild Cards series that had this power? He could make an enemy's gun so heavy, they couldn't carry it anymore and stuff like that. He'd also use it in the entangle mode to keep normal people from attacking/moving.

[Haven Walkur]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

wasn't there a character in the Wild Cards series that had this power? He could make an enemy's gun so heavy' date=' they couldn't carry it anymore and stuff like that. He'd also use it in the entangle mode to keep normal people from attacking/moving.[/quote']

 

There certainly was. His name was Hiram Worchester, and he was an obese gormet chef and owner of the famous restaurant/nightclub "Aces High". He did adventure as a hero for a short time under the name of the Fat Man, but was quickly recognized by a reporter.

[Haven Walkur]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

My thanks to all the Hero mavens who offered assistance on this power-build problem. Some very good ideas and useful suggestions from the Hero Board, and Rep will be coming your way -- at the frustratingly slow rate of five awards per 24 hours -- in the near future.

 

Thanks again!

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

My problem with entangle for a density attack is that you can hit or EB something and break out of it. What are you hitting?

 

The effect needs to be defined first. I'd imagine it acts as an adustment on movement and/or strength, it causes damage through stress on internal organs (even if you do have a 50 STR you are not used to your liver weighing 150kgs).

 

Density increase: continuous EB NND Does BODY (EITHER current strength over 10, or LS: high gravity OR having a non-differentiated body (I'm made of living stone - no internal organs) AND

 

Supress (STR and movement powers).

 

Each application of the Supress effectively weakens the target and applies another continuous NND - which will have no effect at first as the target strength is over 10 but IS STILL RUNNING. Eventually, if you keep reapplying the supress (turning up the density - very END expensive) the current STR will drop below 10 and all those stacked continuous EBs cut in at once - i.e. you take no real damage until your weight is high enough to effectively crush you, then it is all over quickly as flesh simply cannot take that kind of stress.

 

Season to taste and serve on a bed of lettuce.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

To be utterly exact you should also build in some sort of one hex AoE to reflect the damage to the surface that you are on, if you don't handwave the weight increase as sfx (and you shouldn't), or link in a transform to increase the mass of the target. Quite expensive for window dressing.

[Drhoz]

Re: How to build a Density-altering ATTACK?

 

how about reducing density to zero? watch 'em take off, straight up...