Aliens watching our television

[patrick]

Background info...

 

I've been developing a setting were Earth developed FTL travel in 2212. In 2247 we came across the first intelligent life around 50 ly away. They're at a very similar technology level (communications, medicine, weapons, ect.) in every thing but FTL travel. Both our cultures have been guided to their present state of development by an outside influence (think Roswell). Over the next few decades we come across other races/cultures that have been similarly guided, all in a kind of a 50 ly shell around Sol.

 

Here are my questions...

 

Would they have picked up our last 300 years (minus 50 years travel time) of radio/television broadcasts? Would we have picked up theirs? How difficult is to pick a signal from another system? Do the listeners have to have their antennas pointing directly at the source? And is there degradation in these kinds of signals (radio/TV/communication) over these kinds of distances?

 

Lastly if they are watching our television were they as upset by Fox's cancellation of Firefly as we were? J/K

[Sundog]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

It's really very unlikely that any outside listener would have picked up our signals sent before the mid-fifties - i.e. when Television became commonplace. Most of our signals prior to then were in wavelengths that tend to be bounced back to earth by the ionosphere - deliberately, I should note, since that gave them greater range.

 

But when we needed the greater bandwidth for TV broadcasts, we opened up the VHF and eventually UHF area bands. These punch right through the ionosphere, no bounceback, and since the mid to late 1950s Earth has been one of the brightest radio sources in this part of the galaxy.

 

(The earliest TV broadcast was the famous 'cast of the 1936 Berlin Olympics - but that was neither a powerful transmission, nor a very long one.)

 

An advanced civilization COULD detect our earlier radio signals, but they'd need to be A) lucky, and using something similar to the Very Large Array that SETI uses to search for - well, exactly that sort of evidence.

 

So, a civilization 50LY from here would probably have just become aware of our existence. One 100LY away would know nothing of us, unless they were phenomenally lucky. One 25LY away would probably have told us to SHUT UP by now...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

I read a book where our VHF/UFV signature was what attracted alien attention to Earth, and where subsiquent analysis of the received signals alowed them to decipher Human languages and then analyse our culture. The net conclusion the came to was that humanity was dangerously self centered, and would talk alot about peace and harmony, but would probably eventually become a threat.

Thus the aliens stuck first.

 

It was a pretty grim book, but I DID like the "beacon" that first attracted the aliens attention...

When almost every commercial broadcast signal in the world was coordinated to broadcast the same thing at the same time.

 

"We are the World" was the human races downfall

[Nyrath]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

There are some notes on this problem here:

http://www.setileague.org/editor/uhftv.htm

http://setifaq.org/faq.html#1.2.3

[patrick]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

Thanx for the help guys, and especially for the links Nyrath. They were especially helpful. I'm always glad when real life supports a game idea and I don't have to come with a cheesy idea to explain reality away.

 

In this case, the idea of a dramatic discovery of alien civilizations 50 ly away would've had its parade rained on if we could have been watching each other’s fifty year old re-runs.

 

I’m glad it works out.

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

Assuming that intelligent extraterrestial life does indeed exist, I don't think that

we should be expecting any sort of contact along those lines any time soon.

Any intelligent species that has been subjected to the last 30 or so years of

TV programs has undoubtebly arrived at the conclusion that there is no

intelligent life whatsoever on Earth.

 

The commericals alone would support that conclusion.

 

 

Major Tom

[Vestnik]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

Assuming that intelligent extraterrestial life does indeed exist, I don't think that

we should be expecting any sort of contact along those lines any time soon.

Any intelligent species that has been subjected to the last 30 or so years of

TV programs has undoubtebly arrived at the conclusion that there is no

intelligent life whatsoever on Earth.

 

The commericals alone would support that conclusion.

 

 

Major Tom

 

You never know. Perhaps they worship us as Gods, and we will find an entire civilization based upon the "Girls Gone Wild" advertisements.

[Cancer]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

If you can get to it somewhere (it tends to be behind subscription-only barriers), this old Science article discusses the detection of Earth by its TV/radio/radar emissions. That's a technical paper, so it's a bit of a tough read, but as I recall the main points:

• Earth is detectable by radio astronomy techniques, and has been since the 1950s
  
• If you look in the right frequencies with the right bandpass, Earth is actually insanely "bright" in the TV/radio
  
• The distance out to which we can be detected is, of course, growing at 1 light-year per year
  
• The stongest radio sources we have are the missile warning system radar, but those change frequency and pattern frequently
  
• Because of the intent of TV/radio broadcasts, the Earth is not equally "bright" in all directions
  
• As the Earth rotates, an extraterrestrial astronomer will see Earth get brighter and fainter over the 24-hour rotation period of Earth (unless the observer happens to be located at one of the celestial poles) as the broadcast towers "rise" and "set"; commercial broadcast sources appear brightest as they are rising and setting, because they are constructed to broadcast power sideways, not up
  
• With a long period of careful observations, the observer could detect the presence of Earth's moon (perhaps solving for its orbit) as well as Earth's orbital motion around the Sun
  
• Programming details get demodulated (lost) over interstellar distances
  
• It is probably possible to deduce the radius of Earth from its radio emissions, with the geometric inclination angle limitation
  
• It would be obvious that not all parts of Earth are equally "bright" in the radio, which means a sort of wierd, limited map of Earth's surface could be constructed
  

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

Aliens examining our TV and radio mght come to some scary conclusions

 

 

then lets talk about aliens reading our cookbooks, and some restaurant menus, there going to think were a bunch of cannibals

 

how many foods are named after proper names?

Rump Roast

Ground Chuck

Lady Fingers/Finger food

Sloppy Joes

Crepes Suzette

cant forget the Hunts Manwich

 

I'm sure I am missing a few

[sinanju]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

You never know. Perhaps they worship us as Gods' date=' and we will find an entire civilization based upon the "Girls Gone Wild" advertisements.[/quote']

 

Yeah, we beam stuff like that into space and then we wonder why all those aliens always want our women.

 

It's because they think EARTH GIRLS ARE EASY!

[patrick]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

If you can get to it somewhere (it tends to be behind subscription-only barriers)...

 

Foiled by JSTOR yet again! My college doesn't subscribe. I'd trade our entire athletic department for JSTOR. What the hell, I'm not using it:D

 

Thanx for the play by play Cancer

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

I knew I forgot some

 

for the misunderstood talking

French Thighs

Sams Handwich

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

I knew I forgot some

 

for the misunderstood talking

French Thighs

Sams Handwich

 

You missed the REALLY obvious one...

 

Baby Back Ribs!

 

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

theres also

Baby Oil

and of course

Extra Virgin Olive Oil

[Vestnik]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

Yeah, we beam stuff like that into space and then we wonder why all those aliens always want our women.

 

It's because they think EARTH GIRLS ARE EASY!

 

Earth is where alien frat boys go to get laid. Think of it as a tawdry space sex tourism sort of thing. The Earth babes all know that once you've had Kzinti love, you ain't never goin' back, duuu-huuuude!

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

I thought the Futurama episode where the aliens force our heroes to act out an episode of an earth television show from Fry's time was a hoot. Of course, don't forget the forgettable ST:TNG episode Casino Royale where an alien race mistakes a cheap gangster novel for a blueprint of humanity's Xanadu...

 

Matt "Wish-I-could-forget-that-one" Frisbee

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

Of course' date=' don't forget the forgettable ST:TNG episode [i']Casino Royale [/i]where an alien race mistakes a cheap gangster novel for a blueprint of humanity's Xanadu...

Actually, the name of the episode was The Royale. However, I will agree that it was highly forgettable.

 

Incidentally, Casino Royale is the title of the new James Bond flick (as well as the title of an old James Bond flick).

 

Dale "Trivial Pursuits champ" Ward

[AndrewD2]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

It might not be much help, but there was an episode of the older TV show Amazing Stories that had aliens that picked up our tv in the 60's and thought the world was just like "I Love Lucy". It was quite amusing.

[Barton]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

It is important to remember that the mere detection of artifical radio signals (even if you can not figure what they are "saying") would be a huge incentive for any curious race to try to contact the source. It is back to the earlier post about "beacons" attracting aliens and us to the source of the broadcast.

 

Also since the 1960's the Earth does send DELIBERATE radio signals to space designed (as best as we can) to be detected. Green Bank Radio Observatory in WV has sent such signals. These have been sent in special frequencies and are easy to decode (at least we humans think so).

 

What are the chances someone would hear us??? Low is the pure technical answer, but if you are looking for signals, and you are close enough you WILL hear the Earth. The real questions are 1) how many cilivations exist with the technology to detect signals 2) how many are looking 3) how close to Earth are they? Many people have guesses on these. I personally like the SETI Committee numbers, which have a "crowded" galaxy.

 

If you assume life at 25LY or even 50 LY and they have the tecknology and curiousity they should now or very soon "hear" us.

[Cancer]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

Also since the 1960's the Earth does send DELIBERATE radio signals to space designed (as best as we can) to be detected. Green Bank Radio Observatory in WV has sent such signals. These have been sent in special frequencies and are easy to decode (at least we humans think so).

Have you got a reference for this? With one or two well-publicized exceptions, I would have been just about certain this is not true. It would certainly violate IAU resolutions and international protocol as I understand them.

 

The only intentional broadcast at an interstellar target that I know about was at a globular cluster (M13, I think, but it maybe M3). For astrophysical reasons, globulars are just about certainly devoid of life.

 

We do a lot of interplanetary broadcasts ... radar astronomy, and commands to spacecraft. All that is aimed at Solar System targets. There's some spillover which will escape to interstellar space because any single-dish telescope beam size is larger than any target (other than the Sun & Moon), but it's unintentional and a very small piece of sky.

[McCoy]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

What are the chances someone would hear us??? Low is the pure technical answer, but if you are looking for signals, and you are close enough you WILL hear the Earth. The real questions are 1) how many cilivations exist with the technology to detect signals 2) how many are looking 3) how close to Earth are they? Many people have guesses on these. I personally like the SETI Committee numbers, which have a "crowded" galaxy.

 

If you assume life at 25LY or even 50 LY and they have the tecknology and curiousity they should now or very soon "hear" us.

About all we know for sure right now (If I understand it correctly and if not I hope Cancer will correct me) is that there is no non-natural transmitter between here and the center of the galaxy as strong as our DEW Line radars that have been in operation long enough for their signals to reach us.

 

I'm thinking tech civilization every hundred light years or so is the absolute best we can hope for at this point. Unfortunately, probably not even that good.

 

Unless we are the first ones, or the last ones, in the neighborhood using radio.

[Cancer]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

We know a bit more than what McCoy describes, but not much more. It's safe to say that the N = large scenarios (where N is the number of radio-using civilizations in the Galaxy; the term comes from discussion of the famous Drake Equation) are ruled out by available observations. That's a far cry from saying we are alone in the Galaxy, of course.

 

To my surprise, one of the best reference works is no longer behind a purchase wall. It was published in 2001 so it's a little old, but the basics are still there, and it's not as if there's been any detections in the 5-6 years since that was published . Jill Tarter's review in the Annual Reviews of Astronomy & Astrophysics is not going to be an easy read, but it's probably as close to "real canon" as you can get.

[patrick]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

So...

 

If I'm writing a setting where there 9 systems within 75 ly of earth, all of which are at a post-nuclear technology level, is radio a plot hole big enough to drive a Mack truck through if everyone is surprised by first contact?

[McCoy]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

So...

 

If I'm writing a setting where there 9 systems within 75 ly of earth, all of which are at a post-nuclear technology level, is radio a plot hole big enough to drive a Mack truck through if everyone is surprised by first contact?

I'm going to say "yes." Nine radio using civilizations within a sphere with a radius of 75 LY from Earth is, not proven impossible at this point, but seems not a good fit with observed data.

 

Easiest fix if they have FTL drives is that they also use FTL long range communications, and didn't notice Earth was trying to communicate until some hobbiest noted the signal.

[patrick]

Re: Aliens watching our television

 

I'll just throw in a bit of X Files.

 

The other worlds were populated with Earth stock between 40,000 and 30,000 years ago by Greys. The Greys also guided Earth and the transplanted civilizations using servants (also bred from Earth stock) called watchers.

 

Eventually on Earth, groups of watchers would be known by such names as Freemasons, Illuminati, etc.

 

It wouldn't take too much for a watcher to insert himself into a position to hinder finding extra-terrestrial signals, until the time is right let the secret out.