Class systems -- is there no escape?

[Lucius]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

Sorry' date=' Killer Shrike, I was being sarcastic about the inanity of the original question, not your response to it.[/quote']

 

The question I asked – or rather, the statement I made that I asked the question about – is deliberately inane. It’s a response to statements like this:

 

Don't try to make this into a semantic arguement--I'm using the same definition of "class" that everyone else is using in this thread. Talking about the requirements, power, and limits of magic in the campaign is the essence of any mage class in any system.

 

I would argue that just about everyone who plays Fantasy Hero uses at least the mage class (of some sort or another). Those Fantasy games that don't use a mage class wouldn't have the appropriate Fantasy feel, or Norse feel, or Chinese feel.. they would feel more like a Champions game in the middle-ages than anything else.

 

The difference is that the game system itself requires that someone who wants to fight effectively take combat levels and WFs' date=' but it does not require KSs, perks, or magic skill to use the powers listed in the power section. If we require that for our games, we are imposing some sort of structure on the game--which is the same a class structure. A very limited class structure, but a class structure nonetheless.[/quote']

 

If one accepts what CUnknown is saying, my statement logically follows:

 

Right. And if I say no one can take Computer Programming in my fantasy game because computers don't exist there, or say that you need a Weapon Familiarity with Swords before taking the Fencing martial Art, I'm also creating a class system.

 

 

Does anyone actually agree with the above statement?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is in a class by itself.

 

So I would expect that CUnknown at least would agree with my statement, as it logically follows from his.

 

No, that’s not true. I really don’t expect him to agree, but I’m hoping that by (gently I hope!) illustrating the absurdity of his position, I will persuade him to reconsider it.

 

Just to be a ditto-head: I prefer point based systems to class and level based systems' date=' but that preference is wholly subjective, and there is nothing inherently wrong with class based systems. Some people swear by them and prefer the rigid structure and (theoretically) rigid balance they provide, and its not mine to deride their preference. If it suits them and they're enjoying it who am I - or anyone else - to say they should do it differently? Point based systems also have drawbacks, I just happen to prefer the drawbacks point based systems have. The entire notion that class based systems should go the way of the dodo because of subjective differences is a little odd to me. I don't play them, but others do. They should give up their games because I don't like them?[/quote']

 

On the other hand, I think it’s a very telling point that even AD&D has responded to the existence of HERO and other more evolved systems by becoming ever more flexible – in fact, even Hackmaster, deliberately designed to be a kind of parody of the absurdity of D&D, has the equivalent of Disadvantages that net you points to improve your character with (although the disads are rolled on a chart rather than chosen.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary maintains that Lucius Alexander is like an unemployed teacher – no class!

[Alcamtar]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

This thread started out asking why classes happen even though they are not required, and then sort of lost focus.

 

Why is it' date=' when HERO doesn't even have classes, that these forums still see characters so often described as fitting neatly into the pidgeonhole of some narrow archetype, as they established by...that other game?[/quote']

 

There are prescriptive classes and descriptive classes. A prescriptive class says "here is a pattern that you must follow" while a descriptive class says "here is a group of characters that fit a recognizable pattern."

 

Many of us like HERO because it allows natural characters who have reasons for what they do. On the other hand, people intuitively recognize and classify patterns; in gaming we call them styles or genres. Most of us want our games to be recognizable as genres, or even specific books or movies. In other words, we want to see specific descriptive classes without artificially prescribing them. But since HERO is so wide-open, some prescription is unavoidable ("no guns, use this magic system, must have heroic motives", etc) combined with the GM exercising editorial control.

 

Regarding "why D&D", I don't see D&D style fantasy as any less valid than books or movies. It doesn't surprise me that people want to emulate it "naturally" in HERO just like any other style. D&D works because it draws on broad pre-existing genres, and it mixes genres, so that gamers with differing tastes can each find something to identify with. Plus gaming is very pragmatic while fiction is rarely so, and the D&D genre is a very natural genre for gaming in simply because it evolved from gaming. This pragmatism is appealing to many.

 

Anyway I think it's valuable to realize that we're all emulating something, and that we all define and use classes (at least descriptively).

[Markdoc]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

I would argue that just about everyone who plays Fantasy Hero uses at least the mage class (of some sort or another). Those Fantasy games that don't use a mage class wouldn't have the appropriate Fantasy feel' date=' or Norse feel, or Chinese feel.. they would feel more like a Champions game in the middle-ages than anything else.[/quote']

 

You could argue that, but in my experience it just ain't so. In the current game, the closest the a mage class would be a priest - and even then you can be a priest without knowing any magic. In the current set of players only one (by a stretch) could deescribed as a mage/priest - but almost all of them have magic.

 

I think what you mean is that classes - and especially Mage - are essential for a FH game which mimics D&D - as many of them do. But it's neither essential, nor as common as you seem to think for FH games in general.

 

Classes (outside of D and D) are a useful shorthand for description, nothing more. If I had to describe the current group, one I would describe as a fighter and another as a rogue - they fit the D and D stereotypes pretty well - but in addition I have a young noble's son, an animal handler, a merchant and an inquisitor - because those short descriptions fit their characters better than the D and D descriptions.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

There are prescriptive classes and descriptive classes.

 

You put it better than I did -- repped.

[Vondy]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

You could argue that, but in my experience it just ain't so. In the current game, the closest the a mage class would be a priest - and even then you can be a priest without knowing any magic. In the current set of players only one (by a stretch) could deescribed as a mage/priest - but almost all of them have magic.

 

I think what you mean is that classes - and especially Mage - are essential for a FH game which mimics D&D - as many of them do. But it's neither essential, nor as common as you seem to think for FH games in general.

 

Classes (outside of D and D) are a useful shorthand for description, nothing more. If I had to describe the current group, one I would describe as a fighter and another as a rogue - they fit the D and D stereotypes pretty well - but in addition I have a young noble's son, an animal handler, a merchant and an inquisitor - because those short descriptions fit their characters better than the D and D descriptions.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Tangential to Markdoc's point:

 

If you define fantasy within the scope of High Fantasy and Swords& Sorcery then yes, the traditional mage, is essential in one form or another. However, there are numerous sub-genres within the wider Fantasy genre that the mage, as he understood in HF and SS stories, is not essential to. Low fantasy, historical or strong simulationist fantasy, some mythological fantasy, horror, and dark fantasy don't always have, or need, such an archetype to firmly remain within the realm of fantasy. And even in terms of Swords& Sorcery there are stories that do not strictly require such a designation. Farfd and the Grey Mouser comes to mind, and the Stormbringer game handled sorcery extremely well without having a specific class. The mage is a common element of many prominent fantasy stories, and is a useful descriptor when describing many fantasy characters, but he's certainly not indispensible to it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

I've only skimmed the thread, and checked in on the end of it to see where the discussion is now (prescriptive vs. descriptive) and of course the general starting question seems to have been "Can we get away from class structure?"

 

Something MarkDoc said was a little surprising to me; that he would only pidgeonhole two characters, but others - the noble's son, etc. - he wouldn't put in the same category. I find this odd because to me, Noble's Son is a special effect backed up by a few specific choices (maybe a couple of skills, and a couple of perks). I had a PC in my old d20 game (the game I converted) who was a noblewoman from a specific subculture of Elves, and we went through a whole bunch of effort to get that character created in a way that it would work, without taking 'expert class' from the DMG.

 

I mention all of this because for us, in my group, yes, there is an element of d20 emulation - but that's all it is - emulation, not simulation. I knew that I would need to put together a complex magic system, which is comparatively low powered, diverse and balanced. I knew that I would be looking for warriors to have 'Sword Tricks' and for Theives to have 'Thief Tricks' - but that was about the extent of it.

 

I switched out of a class system and into a point buy system to get away from, on a variety of levels, the over-simplification of the class structure. You could not, without buying a level or more of Rogue, have a skill heavy warrior. Granted, it took me a really long time to fully grasp what HERO does well vs. what d20 does well, but now that I've pretty much completed the transition, I both see a place for class-based games like d20 (simplicity is king) and for complex point buys like HERO.

[Markdoc]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

Something MarkDoc said was a little surprising to me; that he would only pidgeonhole two characters' date=' but others - the noble's son, etc. - he wouldn't put in the same category. I find this odd because to me, Noble's Son is a special effect backed up by a few specific choices (maybe a couple of skills, and a couple of perks). [/quote']

 

Which is the point. The Noble's son is, in the game, a noble's son and has the attributes one would expect from that description - some basic weapons skills, some courtly graces, some contacts. Describing the character that way gives you an impression of what the character is like.

 

The fighter is, in the game, exactly what a straight D&D fighter would be like - armour, weapons, some "feats" and a few basic skills. Thus "fighter" gives you a pretty good idea of what that character is all about.

 

As I said, they're *descriptions*. I could have described the Noble's son as "sort of like a bard, but without any magical powers related to music, lots of points in social interaction skills and some combat skills" but "noble's son" is more succinct.

 

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

Different evolution of thought. To me, Mike's noble woman was always a Sorceror and the focus to an extent (because of the system) needed to be on maintaining a level of effectiveness in combat and fighting tooth & nail with the system to bring about that concept.

 

It was one of the reasons that I switched systems in the first place, and still, I would say she's a Sorceror. which is odd, considering part of the point was to enable him to play her concept out completely, without the system getting in the way of the character.

 

Consider more a testament of speaking one language for nearly two decades in its various incarnations, then moving to a whole new country, and still learning how to express myself in a new language.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

I tried having a classless campaign called "AD&D remix" about a very high-magic world (i.e. castle city in the clouds) that suffered a complete magical collapse. Thirty years later, magic starts to return but it is much different than before. (No longer AD&D, but now Fantasy Hero)

 

One of the major changes, everyone can now do some minor magics. Without any skill or training, it's not much (10 active points) and usually more frustrating than its worth. (You can spend points into raising your skill level, which makes you more likely to succeed with higher level magic without blowing yourself up and doing faster, etc.).

 

The upshot is, even with all this freedom, most of the characters fall easy into niches: the berserker, the treasure hunter, the cleric, the merc, the monk, the ranger/animal trainer, and the ever-loving fire mage.

 

So my answer is "no". Although there are no proscriptive reasons to have classes, people aren't going to be generalists.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

After having read the entire thread....

 

It's still here because most of us came from some form of D&D, because a class gives you an easy way to describe your character in shorthand as well as conceptualize it, and because the Hero System makes it easy to whip up at least an approximation of D&D character class abilities in Fantasy Hero.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

 

Why is it' date=' when HERO doesn't even have classes, that these forums still see characters so often described as fitting neatly into the pidgeonhole of some narrow archetype, as they established by...that other game? [/quote']

Association? enough said?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_%28psychology%29

 

 

 

QM