CSLs overpriced?

[The Souljourner]

+3 Overall CSLs is 24 points. +9 dex is 27 points.

[edit - this should be "Combat Skill Levels with All Combat" as Hyperman pointed out... I'm mixing metaphors as it were]

 

 

+3 overall levels gives you +3 to OCV or DCV (split as you choose)

+3 overall levels can sacrifice two of those CSLs for +1 DC (a pretty poor martial manuever)

 

+9 dex gives +3 to both OCV and DCV

+9 dex gives you 9 points towards +1 speed

+9 dex gives you +3 to all dex based skills

+9 dex lets you go earlier in a phase (effectively 13 points of lightning reflexes... but I think LR is overpriced as well)

 

Why are CSLs so expensive? If I were to cost them out, I'd say they'd probably be right at half the cost.

 

I can almost never justify giving them to my characters except sometimes the 2 point CSLs. I love the concept of a very skilled character, but just buying more Dex comes out cheaper and more effective 95% of the time.

 

Here's how I'd price them and the limitations that get me there:

 

Overall Combat Skill Level

+3 Dex, Only for OCV or DCV (-3/4) = 5 points

(calling it -3/4 since you can choose which you want round by round)

 

Ranged/Melee Only Combat Skill Level

+3 Dex, Only for OCV or DCV (-3/4), Only for Melee/Ranged (-1) = 3 points

 

DCV Combat Skill Level

+3 Dex, Only for DCV (-1) = 4 points

The DCV CSLs are actually the closest to the correct price both from my personal experience, and from what seems to make sense from a rules standpoint

 

Single Attack Combat Skill Level

+3 Dex, Only for OCV or DCV (-3/4), Only for one specific attack (-2) = 2 points

Ahh yes, we get to the 2 point CSL and I think they're priced just right.

 

-Nate

[Tiree]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

My first thought about CSL's vs Stats is if you have the disadvantage: Normal Characteristic Maxima. It would start costing a character quite a bit more over 20 Dex than it would be with CSL's.

[Manic Typist]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

Also, CSLs are a way to get better at those skills when the GM has imposed a CAP on DEX.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

First, there is no 'overall' CSL.

 

There are:

 

8 +1 CSL with All Combat

which can be used with any combat manuever to adjust CV or DC

 

10 +1 Overall Skill Level

which can do everything an All Combat CSL plus be used for All skill, characteristic or movement rolls.

 

*Note: The optional Dive For Cover does not provide a flat bonus to CV. It is a special DEX roll based movement manuever. Therefore 8 pt. CSL's cannot be used to increase the roll.

 

NCM, as already pointed out, is the biggest reason to buy skill levels of ANY kind. But even in the superhero genre there are very good reasons to have 8 or 10 pt levels.

 

A character with a mix of Martial Manuevers, HA's or an 'Attack Multipower' will always be less constrained with CSL's that apply to ALL of his attacks.

 

A character with a mix of skills based on different characteristics will do likewise.

 

**I highly recommend the recent Ultimate Skill which covers this topic in far greater detail.

[ghost-angel]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

We've done this before. I know we have.

 

The others have pointed out all sorts of reasons. I'll just add - sometimes CSLs provide for better concept than just DEX.

 

And at half the price they can quickly get out of hand. Since most people use DEX for Combat Purposes.

[The Souljourner]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

First' date=' there is no 'overall' CSL.[/quote']Yeah my bad... you know what I meant, at least.

 

NCM' date=' as already pointed out, is the biggest reason to buy skill levels of ANY kind.[/quote']

 

That's a good point. I guess I should have framed my question as regards to superheroic campaigns.

 

But even in the superhero genre there are very good reasons to have 8 or 10 pt levels.

 

A character with a mix of Martial Manuevers, HA's or an 'Attack Multipower' will always be less constrained with CSL's that apply to ALL of his attacks.

I'm not saying lower point CSLs are bad compared to higher point ones. I'm saying higher point ones are bad compared to dex. 8 point CSLs are almost always worse than just buying more dex.

 

10 point overall levels are a different matter, since they work with all skills (and really don't make much sense for most character concepts... few people are just plain better at *everything*)

 

**I highly recommend the recent Ultimate Skill which covers this topic in far greater detail.

That's a very good suggestion, I definitely should pick it up.

 

-Nate

[Zed-F]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

Yeah, we've talked about this before. I'll sum up the usual conclusions...

 

1) 2-pt. CSL, +1 with a specific attack or maneuver -- good for one-trick ponies or a particularily favoured maneuver. Good value if you expect to be doing that a lot, otherwise not so much.

 

2) 3-pt. CSL with a group of attacks/maneuvers -- a reasonable buy compared to straight DEX, flexible enough to be useful in most (but not all) situations, unless your character is broadly-enough based as to be constantly picking maneuvers and powers from across the board. A character with lots of CSLs tends to be better versus a single opponent than a purely DEX-based character with equivalent average CV, while the latter tends to be better against groups.

 

3) 5-pt. CSL: These are good if bought with limitations, but otherwise tend not to be as valuable as DEX. Of course there may be limits on how much DEX you can reasonably acquire, as others have already pointed out.

 

4) 8-pt. all combat CSLs: Same as (3) but moreso.

 

5) 10-pt. Overall Levels: Always useful to have, much more so than 5- or 8-point CSLs, generally speaking. If I'm going for a broadly-based character with multiple attack modes, I'll usually pick these in preference to the latter. (Broadly-based characters are often highly skilled characters in any case.)

[Zed-F]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

10 point overall levels are a different matter' date=' since they work with all skills (and really don't make much sense for most character concepts... few people are just plain better at *everything*)[/quote']

I find there are a few good SFXs for which overall levels are warranted. Firstly, there's plain old-fashioned experience -- the veteran who's been there and done it all before. Secondly, superspeedsters who can react to everything around them as if it were in slow motion AND also can think with hyper speed. (These types characters will usually get a -1/4 lim on their overall levels for things where just being fast doesn't help, such as most interaction skills.) Some precognitives also can benefit from overall levels in a similar fashion. Plus, there's always magic in the form of guiding spirits and various other magical SFX.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

re: DEX vs. CSL's in a supers game.

 

CSL's are the only way to emulate characters who...

 

...only gets a bonus on 1 side of the CV equation:

• sharpshooter who spends hours at the pratice range: CSL's only with OCV.
  
• evasion artist who can't be hit but is not significantly better at hitting someone else: 5 pt CSL's with DCV (note: 5 pt levels can take limitations like Only if makes Danger Sense roll)

...can translate his skill with an attack into increased damage instead of accuracy (great vs. those automaton Robots!) (Haymaker is similar but it really is tranlating SPD as well)

 

...can be great at Offense or Defense but not at the same time. DEX increases both equally. A character with 3+ 8pt CSL's can get the benefits of a 'normal' Dodge by assigning them all to DCV and still attack at his base DEX OCV.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

It's worth noting that The Ultimate Skill introduces a New costing structure for skill levels:

 

The 4 point skill level. For those situations where a 3 pointer doesn't do enough and and 5 pointer does too much.

It's the Baby Bear solution.

 

Buy the book.

[Rapier]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

I dislike these arguments.

 

"+X (usually a Characteristic) is more effective than Power/Skill/Talent X."

 

By spending 27 points, you can get:

- +9 DEX, +3 OCV, +3 DCV and +2 to DEX Based Skill Rolls

- +13 OCV with your favourite attack (and have 1 pt left over)

- +8 vs Hit Locs with your favourite attack (and have 1 pt left over)

- +5 (5 pt) CSLs (and have 2 pts left over)

- +3 (8 pt) CSLs (and have 3 pts left over)

- +2 Overall Levels (and have 7 pts left over)

- +27 STR, +5 DCs, quintuple you lifting, additional PD, etc, etc

- +5d6 EB

- +2d6-1 Killing Attack

- a 14 PD/13 ED FF

- 9 DEF armour

- +14" Flight (or Running)

- Limited Desol

 

Which is more effective? Well that depends a lot on the character and the campaign now, doesn't it? A combatant is only as good as their ability to strike their target. With a MA or Brick that +14" Movement could be MUCH more effective than anything else. A character with little, if any, DEF would get much more utility out of a FF. A character who is at the campaign DEX cap may get the most out of some levels. A character that can't seem to do any damage to his opponents might get the most benefit out of some additional dice (or maybe some naked AP or Penetrating).

 

You can't argue utility in a vacuum.

 

And now I go to watch Harry Potter....

[Markdoc]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

In general, it is fair to say that the 8 point CSL is not a great buy under most circumstances. You're better off with DEX or 10 point levels.

 

For the others, it works out about right, since:

the 2 pointer is just dirt cheap and useful

the 3 pointer is even better - not only is it more flexible than DEX in terms of OCV/DCV but you can start adding it towards damage

the 5 pointer is slightly less cost-effective than the 3, but also slightly broader in application. It otherwise has the same advantages

 

That's not to say DEX is a BAD buy - just that it's not as overwhelming as it looks at first.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

Actually, 8 pt CSL's are a bargain IF a GM has a houserule that does not allow a character to sell back 'new' figured (but unused) SPD when spending XP on DEX. characters will usually have some cheaper CSL's and broadening them to apply to new attack types becomes cheaper than more DEX.

[Zed-F]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

I'd still figure out a way to bump that 8-pt. CSL up to an overall level darn quick.

[pinecone]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

Yeah, 2 and 3 pointers are good 5's are iffy and 8's are hard to justify...but 10 pointers rawk! (sorta...) And Dex is most always a good buy, which is how characteristic inflation got started....

[Vondy]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

I'd still figure out a way to bump that 8-pt. CSL up to an overall level darn quick.

 

Mathematically I agree, but it has drawbacks on a character concept level. Characters generally become Batmanesque in their omnicompetence once Overall levels come into play, which is like a small man shopping in a big and tall store because it was having a sale. I appreciate the effectiveness of Overall levels, but I also prefer not to see them on most characters. Also, in heroic games where there are caps of characteristics, 8-point levels are a better buy than they are in superheroic or heavily cinematic games where characteristics tend to be (much) higher.

[secretID]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

I believe there are many, many related threads. I think this one is very interesting:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47440&highlight=framework

[bcaplan]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

+3 Overall CSLs is 24 points. +9 dex is 27 points.

[edit - this should be "Combat Skill Levels with All Combat" as Hyperman pointed out... I'm mixing metaphors as it were]

 

Why are CSLs so expensive? If I were to cost them out, I'd say they'd probably be right at half the cost.

 

Speaking as both a gamer and an economist, you're right. The nice thing about the Hero System isn't that all the prices are right, but that it's fairly straightforward to show which of the prices are wrong.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

First off, I find the pricing structure of skill levels overprices them where NCM is not a factor. If you reduce the cost, they're too great a bargain if NCM is a factor.

 

Actually' date=' 8 pt CSL's are a bargain [b']IF[/b] a GM has a houserule that does not allow a character to sell back 'new' figured (but unused) SPD when spending XP on DEX. characters will usually have some cheaper CSL's and broadening them to apply to new attack types becomes cheaper than more DEX.

 

So spend your xp on "Dex - no figured characteristics" and save up if you want another SPD point.

 

NOTE: I dislike arbitrary house rules of this nature. This essentially says "buy DEX to the maximum level you want it at for your startup character or I'll hose you on the price later" or, alternatively, "If you buy your DEX up in less than 10 point increments, you get to pay extra".

 

I find there are a few good SFXs for which overall levels are warranted. Firstly' date=' there's plain old-fashioned experience -- the veteran who's been there and done it all before. Secondly, superspeedsters who can react to everything around them as if it were in slow motion AND also can think with hyper speed. (These types characters will usually get a -1/4 lim on their overall levels for things where just being fast doesn't help, such as most interaction skills.) Some precognitives also can benefit from overall levels in a similar fashion. Plus, there's always magic in the form of guiding spirits and various other magical SFX.[/quote']

 

We've danced this dance before on these Boards, but I see no reason that Veteran or Speedster who can do everything a higher DEX would provide can't buy DEX with the SFX of "combat experience" or "boy I'm fast". If there are things DEX would provide that he shouldn't have, limit the DEX.

 

In my view, the answer to "it's too expensive" isn't "characters with such and such SFX should buy it even though it's a poor use of points". It's "fix the pricing so concepts that get the same mechanical result have the same, or at least similar, costs".

[CUnknown]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

The problem isn't that combat skill levels are too expensive (they are actually too cheap, especially the 2 pt levels), it's that DEX is way underpriced. I use 4 pt DEX in my campaigns, and that seems to work out alright. I also restrict the use of 2-pt levels so you can't buy too many of them.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

So spend your xp on "Dex - no figured characteristics" and save up if you want another SPD point.

 

NOTE: I dislike arbitrary house rules of this nature. This essentially says "buy DEX to the maximum level you want it at for your startup character or I'll hose you on the price later" or, alternatively, "If you buy your DEX up in less than 10 point increments, you get to pay extra".

 

BTW, I wasn't advocating such a house-rule but nothing about it said the character couldn't spend more XP on SPD as well. This seems to make more sense.

 

If a player states that his character is training specifically to increase his combat effectiveness I would (as a GM using such a rule) encourage buying CSL's of some sort. If the character is training to increase overall agility (aka DEX) I would advise that part of the points are essentially going towards figured SPD and ask the player if that was something they were intending to increase as well.

 

Another result of such a house-rule would be to encourage the use of Lightning Reflexes even in games with no NCM. Not necessarily a bad thing.

[SpydirShellX]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

One thing I find annoying is that when you buy the various CSL, they can't be used "at all times" like the DCV from DEX is.

 

The only way to get that effect is to buy all the levels of Defensive Maneuver (whether it fist the character concept or not)

 

This part about it gets annoying when the rules for small character comes into play. The book method of creating such characters is to buy DCV levels for their size.... this is supposed to represent an always-on effect. Somehow it doesn't.

[Zed-F]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

We've danced this dance before on these Boards, but I see no reason that Veteran or Speedster who can do everything a higher DEX would provide can't buy DEX with the SFX of "combat experience" or "boy I'm fast". If there are things DEX would provide that he shouldn't have, limit the DEX.

 

In my view, the answer to "it's too expensive" isn't "characters with such and such SFX should buy it even though it's a poor use of points". It's "fix the pricing so concepts that get the same mechanical result have the same, or at least similar, costs".

Sure... but I was talking about buying overall levels, not all combat levels. I think most people agree that they are adequately priced as is.

[schir1964]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

WHAT IF?

Naked Power Modifier

+1 DEX (DCV Use Only -1/2): 2 Points

+1 DEX (OCV Use Only -1/2): 2 Points

Any Martial Manuever: 5 Points

Negative Skill Levels (Self Only -2): 1 Point

 

Cost: 10 Points

 

Allows one to apply OCV (-1 to +1) and DCV (-1 to +1) to any manuever.

Can increase the range of OCV and DCV at 2 Points Each.

 

Just Muttering

 

- Christopher Mullins

[braincraft]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

CSLs are more useful if you exercise bounces and extra damage and such. They become a sort of multipower where you turn them into extra damage against agents, which you can reliably hit with only DEX OCV, or into CV, which you really only need against opponents of equivalent skill.