SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

[Shaft]

I find that a lot of people buy SPD just to keep up with the next guy. There seems to be a perception that an average hero should have a 5 SPD, a slower one (like most Bricks), a Martial Artist should have a 6 SPD, and speedsters should have 7+. This also means that mook characters like "generic" Viper thugs should be 4 SPD to give characters a run for their money.

 

Of course, inevitably, someone wants their "archtype" to be a little faster. also, it means that master villains have to be at least SPD 7 whirlwinds of death to counter the PC group effectively.

 

This SPD inflation also results in the movement rules breaking. When somebody decides to build their version of Batman or Captain America, who is supposed to be withiun the range of plausible human speeds, he gets a 7 SPD ("because he's a Martial Artist, but he's a little faster than the "average" Martial Artist"...) you get a guy who can run at 7 x 9" or 10" every 12 seconds. This means that he can blow away Olympic records by 75%, since I assume an Olympic Sprinter has 4 SPD and 10-11" of running (and pushes his running in the final phase in which he can reach the finish line). Since a guy like Batman and an Olympic sprinter are supposed to be in the same category, with the difference being that the Olympic guy decides to go for a gold medal while Batman decides to fight crime, the SPD differences start to classify Batman as a low level Speedster. Which means that the Speedster has to compensate to keep up...

 

(And yes, I know that some people are going to suggest that vigilantes who take up physical training to fight crime are dedicated and exceptional individuals. But so are olympic athletes. And the athletes train full time instead of going on patrol)

 

The end result is that everyone's SPDs are artificially inflated. A generic Viper thug shouldn't be SPD 4, because he's a beer-guzzling drunk between failed bank robberies and foiled hijacking attempts. It makes sense for a brick who is incredibly fit as a side effect of his powers to be SPD 4. Same with an EB. Superhumans spend a lot of time in training- roughly equivalent to an Olympic athlete. Giving these characters a 5 SPD is done purely out of a need to heep up. The 10 extra points could be far more effective if it was spent on skills like the Rapid Hth/Ranged skills or Two Weapon (HtH or Ranged) feats (allowing them to act more efficiently on their actions instead of acting more often). This lets a brick make 8 punches and 4 half moves at no penalty.

 

A Martial Artist in the upper levels of human should also have a 4 SPD. The Martial Artist's prowess comes from having skills to counter penalties from the exotic moves. While the brick aboce could make 8 punches and 4 half moves, the Martial Artist would be able to make 4 half moves and sweep even more. In addition to the rapid HtH skills and two weapon (the special effect being that one "weapon" is punching while the other is "kicking" or something else) he'd have specialised levels to counter sweep penalties, have extra levels to keep his DCV high without having to resort to dodging, etc... He'd also invest in Lightning Reflexes so that when facing another opponent who acts on his phase, he strikes first.

 

The Speedster or more accurately, the character who moves at superhuman speeds is the only character where it makes sense to exceed 4 SPD. If a character has an effect like superhuman reflexes or an altered time rate, etc... it makes sense to break the 4 SPD barrier.

 

I have been enforcing a "all players have a 4 SPD" rule in my games with the exception of PC Speedsters who I allow to have an 8 SPD (and I only allow 1 player to be the "Speedster"). The damage caps for the campaign mean that the Speedster does less damage unless he's using attacks that get velocity bonuses (meaning that it makes sense for him to invest in the passing strike maneuver and get combat acceleration on his movement). This rule has been working very well, and despite the massive difference in SPD levels, the Speedster really feels like a Speedster since his ability to shift locations on the battle map is unparralleled.

 

In relation to the PCs, low level thugs have 2 SPD, trained para-military mooks have a 3 SPD, elite mooks have a 4 SPD (like a "generic" higly trained commando), most supervillains have a 4 SPD and villains who are supposed to take on the group have 5 SPD plus the skills to act with less penalties as appropriate. Flash style Speedsters tend to be SPD 8 when I need to give my PC speedster a specific challenge.

 

The SPD caps tend to make fights go faster since all PCs know they act on the same phase (it's easier to coordinate). It also adds more options to the GM since I can send a squad of 150 pt commandos against the PCs and with the right tactics make them a challenge (or even a bunch of SPD 3 mooks). It also means I can use villains from the Dark Champions sourcebooks and let them keep their "feel" as colourful ~200 pt henchmen that stand out without making it look like everyone the PCs run into is a SPD 5/6 exceptional human. I encourage more people to try using these guidelines to run their games.

[Shaft]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

Obviously, the downside is that there is a certain flavour to having PCs who act at different SPDs. This will be lost if all PCs are the same SPD.

[ghost-angel]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

Never noticed that. Most supers games I'm in have Supers ranged from 4-6, with 6 being Fast superheroes. And Speedsters usually hit 7-8, rarely 9+.

[Robyn]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

The inflation may not be a problem in higher-point campaigns. If characters are built on 75/75, taking a decent level of SPD may seriously dent their XP reserve.

[BNakagawa]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

One way to have a high speed and not outrun people who are supposed to be world class sprinters is to buy down your base running.

 

Optionally, buy extra running of less than or equal to your reduced rate with the small limitation that it only adds to a half move and can't be used for two successive half moves in a phase. (also no noncombat multiple)

 

So if you bought your running down to 4" and bought an extra 4" running as described above, you have a 4" half move and a 4" full move. Still as tactically viable as someone with 8" full move, but you can have a 6 SPD and not outrun sprinters.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

I think this is actually a legacy of earlier Editions, and can already see design philosophy drifting away from this paradigm, largely for the exact reasons shown... there are a bunch of ways in 5th Edition to increase realtive combat effectiveness/number of attacks per phase/turn that are no longer dependent on increasing SPD. In earlier editions "1 phase =1 attack" was almost a core rules assumption, which IMO is what causes SPD inflation. It is now FAR easier to create increased effectiveness based on skill rather than stats, which allows supers to scale to normals without requiring them to have obsence SPD scores.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

(snip)there are a bunch of ways in 5th Edition to increase realtive combat effectiveness/number of attacks per phase/turn that are no longer dependent on increasing SPD. In earlier editions "1 phase =1 attack" was almost a core rules assumption' date=' which IMO is what causes SPD inflation. It is now FAR easier to create increased effectiveness based on skill rather than stats, which allows supers to scale to normals without requiring them to have obsence SPD scores.[/quote']

 

...which also means normals and "normals" can use these skills to create higher # of attacks/turn...in which case higher SPDs for supers should be less of a problem...*

 

 

 

 

*Unless of course the supers use the same skills, in which case the general problem isn't SPD inflation, but overall action/attack inflation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

We played a game way back where everyone was speed 3-5, with most at 4 (we didn't have an official speedster, but we did have a martial artist).

 

We found this actually accentuates the difference in speed: 3 to 5 is +66%, whereas the difference between 6 to 8 is only +33%.

 

Now the big problem with speed, as you rightly identify, is the effect on move rates.

 

I like to think of speed as not so much how fast you can physically move, but how many effective actions you can take in a given time frame when under stress, so there is nothign wrong in my book with a low speed speedster and a high speed professional soldier. You can take the movement problem out of the equation this way: buy your speed in inches. That is the value you use for move through and other velocity damage (and velocity damage is rarely done at less than maximum velocity). Multiply by 4 (or 6, if you like - try to get close to the campaign average but so long as everyone uses the same multiplier it does not matter). Divide by your speed - that is how far you can move per phase. I know it sounds a bit comlpex, but that is all in the set up.

 

Example: The Pro has a speed of 5 and 15" of movement. He does +3d6 move by and +5d5 move through damage. He can move (15x4)/5=12" per phase.

 

The Doh has a speed of 3 and also has 15" of movement. He does +3d6 move by and +5d5 move through damage. He can move (15x4)/3=20" per phase.

 

The low speed character is moving more per phase but has fewer phases, so travels the same distance per turn, and they both do the same velocity damage even though their move per phase (MPP) is different - because their actual velocity is identical.

 

This approach solves some problems and causes others, but, on balance, I think I like it better than the basic system - although I'm not suggesting it as a replacement, but rather as an alternative for those who, like Shaft, are scatching their heads a bit.

 

Or you could make everyone speed 4, which works just as well and is a lot simpler to administer. But I do like a bit of speed variation and 'same speed campaigns' don't showcase the speed chart, which I think of as a real strength of Hero.

 

One comment on the 'low speed campaign' - you'll find reduced END is rarely needed and combats take a lot longer as REC becomes a very significant factor - average characters will now only get in 2.5 successful attacks per turn, as opposed to 3.75 in a campaign that uses a 6 speed average. For a 12d6/25 def aveage campaign, this means that the average damage through defences is 43 per turn in a 4 speed campaign as opposed to 64 per turn (i.e. most likely a one turn KO) in a 6 speed campaign. Something to think about.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

...which also means normals and "normals" can use these skills to create higher # of attacks/turn...in which case higher SPDs for supers should be less of a problem...*

 

 

 

 

*Unless of course the supers use the same skills, in which case the general problem isn't SPD inflation, but overall action/attack inflation.

 

Also true. Rapid Attack/Sweep allows Mooks to be impressive in their own riught against an appropriate opponent without breaking the scale.

 

That, of course, goes back to campaign levels, limits and/or caps.

When all is said and done, almost all of the increased attack capabilities of characters are CV based. If your Bat-Clone is running with a 4-5 Spd and enough raw CV+ Levels to be able to Rapid Attack or Sweep 3 time a phase at an 8-10 OCV, then your 3 Spd, 5 CV, +2 CSL Viper agents fall like wheat before him, and they won't be able to reliably hit back if they try the same increased firepower tricks. However, against 2 SPD, 3 CV +1 CSL security guards, they'll be able to pull the tricks and rip apart the opposition.

 

I'm a bit biased on the subject... We added houserules for Rapid Fire that were almost identical to the current rules iteration pre-4th edition, and thus it has influenced my in-play and design experiences for a LONG time. The huge difference is that increased SPD radically increases your tactical flexibility. A 4 SPD character with 40 points in combat skills and levels is fully capable of matching an 8 SPD character running on raw stats, but that 4 SPD is stuck with a particular course of offense or defence for twice as many phases, and loses even more flexibility if forced to Abort to a defensive action. However, I still feel that the system is shifting the right direction.

 

And yes, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who played a NCM Martial Artist/Gadgeteer/Pro-from-Dover Character for YEARS in our Champions games, so I have some practical experience in how this applies in play.

[tesuji]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

IMX we tended to have...

 

typical super speed 5

bricks and normals in armor 4

martial artists speedsters 6-7

agents 3 (some 4)

normals 2

 

saw very little inflations beyond that.

 

one area the Gm can help with this is to post BENCHMARKS...

give them some general categories of types of supers and of "exceptional supers" with stats to show the players "what its like" in your world. That way, they can choose appropriately.

 

Additionally as part of the benchmark include the "justification line" where you will ask for "concept justifies this" above this point.

 

I mean you aren't ever going to ask "how does he have a 15 strength" but you might ask if MEntallo the mystic has a 23. or if Magnetboy has speed 7.

 

Basically, provide guideance in terms of "where do supers start?" and "where do supers become exceptional even for supers" for traits like strength, speed, dex, etc and then hold to that standard.

 

I think one reason for inflation in general was the move up in stats from 20 is top human to 30 is top human.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

one area the Gm can help with this is to post BENCHMARKS...

give them some general categories of types of supers and of "exceptional supers" with stats to show the players "what its like" in your world. That way, they can choose appropriately.

 

Additionally as part of the benchmark include the "justification line" where you will ask for "concept justifies this" above this point.

 

I agree 100% - the best way to control inflation in any area of the campaign is to set benchmarks, set limits, ensure the players abide by them, and for the GM to abide by them himself.

 

If the GM tells the players "the average SPD is 4 - your Slow Brick should have a 3, not a 5", and the Brick then encounters SPD 2/3 Agents, SPD 3-5 Supers and the occasional SPD 6-7 Speedster, the player should be OK with that. However, if he abides by the GM's benchmarks and then sees a game full of SPD 4 Agents, SPD 5-8 Supers and the occasional SPD 9+ Speedster,

he has every right to be unhappy with the GM.

 

The only way to prevent the inflation is to prevent these little "arms races".

[pinecone]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

Yeah, in my experience "keeping up with the jones" is mostly in relation to the Bad guys, and you the GM controll that part so if you built 4 speed mooks then MA chars simply must be speed 6. If mooks stay mooks then supers can shine without stat inflation. The second driver I've seen is the Brick...everybody says "I got to be faster that the Brick" so if Ivan Steel, A.K.A. Steel justice is 5 speed then everybody else will be speed 6 and the martial artist will go for 7 to 8, just to "keep up"

[Barrier]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

I've always thought of SPD as being genre specific as to what are the benchmarks are and definitely tied to the characters' combat ability. In a standard Superhero game, the characters are comic book/graphic novel Superheroes they are by definition above and beyond what normal (including athletic and Olympic caliber) humans are capable of. Batman is not an ordinary human nor is he equal to an Olympic athlete, he is superior. The only real human being known who had nearly the combat training he has had and was as much of a natural athlete was Bruce Lee, himself a legend and known for displaying abilities far beyond those of any average martial artist. Batman a SPD 7? I can see it.

 

In a standard Heroic level game, the characters are individuals who are exceptional but are not as so far above what is average as are Superheroes. Many of these characters have some combat training and/or combat experience in their backgrounds which gives them their enhanced combat reaction speeds.. Some classic examples would be Zorro, Robin Hood, Dirty Harry, Zena, etc.

These folks tend to be around SPD 3-4.

 

As player or GM I haven't had many problems with player characters wanting to raise their SPD unless they are feeling consistently ineffective in combat. That seems to be the most often reason for SPD inflation.

 

Of course all of the above is IMHO

[Mike W]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

In my campaigns, VIPER thugs have always been SPD 3(MAYBE a team leader with power armor gets a 4, but it's a rare thing). In the past, the scale you listed(4-7) was about right for my campaign with one or two people listed as having an 8 to represent the best of the best of the best. Part of the problem though is that many of the published characters in 4th edition had SPD ratings that broke the general rules you laid out, so if you tried to use them "as is" PCs inevitably felt(with some justification) that they needed to be faster than a "normal" character of their type in order to cope. I remember building a team full of martial artists once. They were all 250-275 point characters(4th edition). The player characters started at 300. My guys were not as powerful, by any stretch, but I mopped the floor with the PCs because all my guys had a 6 SPD and that translated into ton of extra actions. I also got lucky with one or two match ups but still, the extra SPD was amazingly effective. I think that's the key, keep the villain SPD down and it curtails the arms race a lot. Players don't notice their own lack of SPD as much if the villains aren't any faster. If the villains have an average SPD of 4, then a HERO with a 6 SPD gets 50% more actions. If the villains average a 5, that same speedster now needs a 7 or 8 SPD to get the same effect. Same thing with the martial artists, who generally want to have a +1 SPD to offset their lack of hitting power.

 

The result I've found is to simply fit everyone into the framework and make SPD almost a default stat(though the character still has to pay points) based on archetype. Make characters that have an "extra" point of SPD for their archetype very rare, to the point that such characters(e.g. - Superman) really stand out. The scale I currently used, based on something a friend of mine(who occasionally posts to these boards used) is:

 

2 - normal human, beat cop, gang thug

3 - super agent(VIPER thug, PRIMUS operative), brick(Hulk, Thing)

4 - standard superhero(Green Lantern, Iron Man, Storm)

5 - martial artist or highly agile superhero(Batman, Capt. America, Spiderman)

6 - speedster(Quicksilver)

7 - among the fastest beings in existance(Flash)

 

The list of non-cosmic exceptions is very small and many of them are on the highest end of the overall power scale. Probably less than 10% of the CU violates the above scale.

[Cancer]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

Yeah' date=' in my experience "keeping up with the jones" is mostly in relation to the Bad guys, and you the GM controll that part so if you built 4 speed mooks then MA chars simply must be speed 6. If mooks stay mooks then supers can shine without stat inflation. The second driver I've seen is the Brick...everybody says "I got to be faster that the Brick" so if Ivan Steel, A.K.A. Steel justice is 5 speed then everybody else will be speed 6 and the martial artist will go for 7 to 8, just to "keep up"[/quote']

 

When you have a lame character and are among a party of players whose sense of tactics is lower than what the GM uses against you, it's very tempting in a simple-minded way to reach for the SPD addition. If their SPD is X and our SPD is Y, and Y>X, then I stand a good chance of having Y-X actions where I can do something besides recover from being stunned or rescue a fellow party member who's been stunned, and that number might be greater than zero for a change!

[gojira]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

A generic Viper thug shouldn't be SPD 4' date=' because he's a beer-guzzling drunk between failed bank robberies and foiled hijacking attempts. [/quote']

 

I agree that a Viper agent shouldn't be SPD 4. In Champions and Champions Universe, they are SPD 3. Champions also lists a generic "Master Villian's Agent (Skilled)" who is SPD 2. Checking my 1984 edition of Champions, the Viper Agent in there is SPD 3 also.

 

I dunno why people would be using basic agents who are SPD 4.

[Shaft]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

I agree that a Viper agent shouldn't be SPD 4. In Champions and Champions Universe' date='[/i'] they are SPD 3. Champions also lists a generic "Master Villian's Agent (Skilled)" who is SPD 2. Checking my 1984 edition of Champions, the Viper Agent in there is SPD 3 also.

 

I dunno why people would be using basic agents who are SPD 4.

 

SPD inflation comes to mind. If the average SPD of a party is 6, then SPD 3 guys will not be a challenge.

[Mike W]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

SPD inflation comes to mind. If the average SPD of a party is 6' date=' then SPD 3 guys will not be a challenge.[/quote']

 

So part of the question then becomes "Are agents supposed to be a challenge?". In most cases, I would say "no", so agents generally get a 3. But once in a while you might come across a team leader who is a "super agent" and essentially equipped to the point that he becomes a low grade super. But there types are very rare(maybe 1 in 20 or 1 in 25).

[JmOz]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

My thoughts on speed, the following is broad strokes, the examples are about 90% accurate, with 5% on either side falling above or below the catagory (Cops are 2, so 5 out of 100 will be 1, 5 will be 3)

 

(first number is Primary Characteristics, second is speed)

 

5 1: Pathetic, small children, infirmed, etc...

 

10 2:Average, guy on the street, most cops, most fireman,etc...

 

15 3: Above Average, agents of super organisations (PRIMUS, VIPER) etc...

 

20 4: Extrodinary, Profesional athletes, adventurers, slow supers

 

----This is the point of finding on the streets will not be uncommon---

 

25 5: Legendary, Average supers

 

30 6 Defining Legendary, Above Average Supers, a strong trait but not necesarily defined by it (Daredevil is fast, but it is not what we think of him as)

 

---You can no longer claim a human origin at this point---

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

Obviously' date=' the downside is that there is a certain flavour to having PCs who act at different SPDs. This will be lost if all PCs are the same SPD.[/quote']

 

Me personally, I have always dislked the whole speed x movement to get actual rate of speed because I never saw an olympic runner throwing as many attacks as lets say Bruce Lee. Also it makes no sence to me once a charcter is considered in full movement that he stops motion in phases he does not move so I've always assumed movement x 12 for rate of speed which makes for easy math because every 1" = 4.5mph thus 10" = 45mph plus the difference between someone with more speed still comes into play as far as how often they can change direction/Shift course.

 

plus the 10" runner at 45mph only blows the fastest recorded human sprint at 35mph out by only 10mph or 28% making it more believable.

 

However that's what's so great with the system becaue it can be catered to each world design.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

SPD inflation comes to mind. If the average SPD of a party is 6' date=' then SPD 3 guys will not be a challenge.[/quote']

 

That's not always true because if speed 3 guy barely takes damage then it evens out. I ran a ninja hero campaign where you could have as much speed, DCV and pd/ed as you wanted with the formula which was dcv -3 x 10 + spd X 3 + pd + ed =95 any combination you wanted with the formula you could have.

 

Examples

tough guy

1. 10 dcv -3 x 3 =21 + 3 spd x3 =9 + 33 pd = 32 ed =95

 

Balanced guy

2. 15 dcv-3x3=36 + 6spdx3=18 + 21pd + 20ed=95

 

Speed guy

3. 18dcv-3x3=45 = 8spdx3=24 = =13 pd + 13ed =95

 

the ocv levels in this game was also restricted by th DC thrown with max DC being 15d6 N, 3d6 K, 5d6 NND/AVLD. 26 OCV - 1 per 1d6 N, -5 per 1d6 k, -3 per 1d6 NND.

 

26 ocv - 10d6 N = 16 ocv for that attack

26 ocv - 2d6 k = 16 ocv for that attack

26 ocv - 3d6 nnd/avld = 17 ocv for that attack

 

To make along story short the slower and easier yo were to hit the harder it was to hurt you the faster you were and the harder it was to hit you made you easy to hurt once something did connect and being inbetween meant you could take it better than speed guy and move faster than the tough guy but not be better than either one in their field.

 

in closing

thus tough guy takes less damage but with the right attack when he connects to speed guy it's going to really hurt!

[pinecone]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

So part of the question then becomes "Are agents supposed to be a challenge?". In most cases' date=' I would say "no", so agents generally get a 3. But once in a while you might come across a team leader who is a "super agent" and essentially equipped to the point that he becomes a low grade super. But there types are very rare(maybe 1 in 20 or 1 in 25).[/quote']

 

well...my answer is Yes, but I don't get there with stats, I use tactics. And thats something the average super team has no concept of..

 

I do have spd 4 agents though PRIMUS and their horde of Cyberline junkies...

 

The rest are spd 2, elites are spd 3 and boosted agents (viper combat drugs) usually are 3 ,Zoom addicts are 4 to 5, but have little else,including tactics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

so I've always assumed movement x 12 for rate of speed which makes for easy math because every 1" = 4.5mph thus 10" = 45mph plus the difference between someone with more speed still comes into play as far as how often they can change direction/Shift course.

 

plus the 10" runner at 45mph only blows the fastest recorded human sprint at 35mph out by only 10mph or 28% making it more believable.

 

Someone with a moderate movement in Hero can sustain speeds 28% faster than the #1 human sprint (maintained for a matter of seconds) is "more believable"?

 

10" x 2 meters x 12 x 5 turns per minute = 1.2 kilometers per minute = 72 km per hour, which sounds like about 45 mph to me. I'm assuming your "movement x 12 per turn" eliminates the standard 2x speed for moving noncombat, or that 10" runner gets 144 kph or 90 mph (and all the other speeds discussed below are also doubled).

 

5" (standard normal from at leastone book) becomes 22 mph, or about 36 km/hr. That means standard running can sustain a movement speed well above a car moving at legal speeds down a side street. I don't know what "normal" is where you come from - that's not it in my books.

 

BTW, it was recently pointed out on another thread that, outside combat, everyone has SPD 2. That fixes the long-distance running speed quite effectively in my view.

[GrooveD70]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

Never noticed that. Most supers games I'm in have Supers ranged from 4-6' date=' with 6 being Fast superheroes. And Speedsters usually hit 7-8, rarely 9+.[/quote']

 

Me too, 5 is average for a superhero. A really strong/impervious brick might be at 4. I build most martial artist with a 6 so that they have an extra phase for defense, speedsters are at 7 or 8... Seems to work fine to me. Of course I don't burden myself with calculating whether or not movement is realistic. I don't need it to be for a supers game....

[JmOz]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

I personaly like applying No Combat Movement to the movement powers of martial Artists...