Putting my finger on it

[zornwil]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Rules' date=' setting, sample NPCs all in one book, with the rules already adjusted to fit the intended feel of the setting. A core book of rules with more details and examples; Genre by Genre discussions can go here as well. Additional books expanding this or that aspect of the game, including NPC books, Spell books, Power books, etc. Pretty close to what we had in 3rd, with the best of 4th and 5th.[/quote']

Similar to what I wrote above (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1246278&postcount=21), with the "Setting" book being what you are talking about?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

I don't disagree' date=' but the ongoing problem I see is that HERO (like pretty much every system) produces optional rules in each Ultimate and Genre book, so we're always out of sync. I don't have a good solution (until we get to virtual books that are auto-updated....)[/quote']

 

Yeah.

One thing I do like is that many of the optional rules are uses of powers in the main book (Speed Zone for instance).

 

But I want as much as possible in the main book.

[zornwil]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

And don't get me wrong, I like seeing new rules ideas in new books. Some people complain about that. The only thing I'd like to see, personally, is some distinguishing in new books as to "this is intended to be a core option in the future" although of course I also recognize that sometimes there's no way the author can know if an option is going to make its way into the core or remain outside of that and always subject to "not entirely official."

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

And don't get me wrong' date=' I like seeing new rules ideas in new books. Some people complain about that. The only thing I'd like to see, personally, is some distinguishing in new books as to "this is intended to be a core option in the future" although of course I also recognize that sometimes there's no way the author can know if an option is going to make its way into the core or remain outside of that and always subject to "not entirely official."[/quote']

 

Good point.

I love the new ideas and builds and even variant rules in the new books. It keeps the creative juices flowing.

[Vestnik]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Oh, those darn kids and their new-fangled editions! (Grumble, grumble.)

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Oh' date=' those darn kids and their new-fangled editions! (Grumble, grumble.) [/quote']

 

Hey, I still have my 1st edition on the shelf with my other game stuff, I can reach it from where I am sitting.

[Robyn]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Setting = a complete game' date=' maybe some better way of organizing which core book stuff is in use and which is altered, maybe it's already there as I barely use these, but generally anyway try to make these more clearly complete games, even if "Requires core book" is stamped - to me the tricky part is that I'm not sure how you either don't get to "Requires core book and genre book" or "Requires core book and duplicates some material from genre book" - but the latter could work well, if all you do is duplicate the options/rules from the genre book and say "if you are interested in whys and wherefores to the rules mods from the core, see the genre book"[/quote']

 

Could you please restate the part above, from "the tricky part is" to "but the latter could work well"? I'm having trouble parsing the "either don't get" section.

 

I don't disagree' date=' but the ongoing problem I see is that HERO (like pretty much every system) produces optional rules in each Ultimate and Genre book, so we're always out of sync. I don't have a good solution (until we get to virtual books that are auto-updated....)[/quote']

 

Isn't that what Curufea's HERO-Wiki is for?

[zornwil]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Could you please restate the part above, from "the tricky part is" to "but the latter could work well"? I'm having trouble parsing the "either don't get" section.

 

 

 

Isn't that what Curufea's HERO-Wiki is for?

If you create a "complete game" in HERO but you still have a core book AND you still have a genre book, AND many of the options you will use in the complete game come from both the genre and core book, you have to choose between reprinting rules or just referencing them. If you just reference them, and that's all you do, you have to tell players to go buy BOTH the core and genre book as a requirement to play the game in the book.

 

It's pretty standard to require a core book and I'm making an assumption HERO doesn't want to sell games without at least making someone in the group buy the core book (and the positive flip side, not forcing people to essentially rebuy all the core rules in each setting book). So in order to at least minimize what else one has to buy, but still having an incentive for people to buy genre books, I"m thinking that in the setting book (which is the complete game), it references the core rules and states a bunch of options (talents, package deals, etc.) and even rules changes (such as 1/3 magic in Turakian Age) that are from the genre book, but doesn't give all the detail of course from the genre book on why these are in use and what other options exist for the genre. That way at least someone buying the setting/game only has to buy the core book just to play the game, not buy the setting book plus the core book plus the genre book. Though one would hope, from a commercial perspective, that they will purchase the genre book.

[schir1964]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Before my above messages confuse the matter' date=' essentially that's what I would see for a core book - shunt the stuff off that's getting detailed and into too-specific a territory beyond particular games or is different across genra. That's where I think some of the more esoteric powers, such as Desolid or Transform, can be treated only briefly (relatively, I mean) in the core book and given the appropriate length in each genre book.[/quote']

This meshes with what I've said in another thread. My preference would be that the core rules would be written in a more open ended style with fewer arbitrary restrictions. Advise the GM where they may want to impose restrictions for "Genre Sake" or "Balance". Since all builds pretty much have to get by the GM anyway for admittance, why force the GM to override a restriction as a default. Let the GM's that want to impose a restriction do so.

 

Example:

Don't restrict Healing from being applied to an END Reserve by default. If anything, mention that the GM may want to restrict the application of Healing to just any power as this could lead to balance and/or genre violations. Then the Genre books could define different methods of restricting/applying Healing and the Setting books could delve into various methods of restriction/applying Healing for different game play.

 

Just A Preference

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Robyn]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Zornwil - thanks

 

Example:

Don't restrict Healing from being applied to an END Reserve by default. If anything, mention that the GM may want to restrict the application of Healing to just any power as this could lead to balance and/or genre violations.

 

Adding to this: I'd like to see a "game balance" handbook listing the various restrictions that have been recommended, and at least one example of a "broken" build, and an explanation of how that would constitute "abuse".

 

Perhaps, after everything else has been published, they can take examples of abuses from those. It could be called "The Ultimate Munchkin" or something

 

__________________

Now gathering petitions for The Ultimate Munchkin

[DavidToomey]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Zornwil - thanks

 

 

 

Adding to this: I'd like to see a "game balance" handbook listing the various restrictions that have been recommended, and at least one example of a "broken" build, and an explanation of how that would constitute "abuse".

 

Perhaps, after everything else has been published, they can take examples of abuses from those. It could be called "The Ultimate Munchkin" or something

 

__________________

Now gathering petitions for The Ultimate Munchkin

 

 

I'd buy that in a heartbeat, though I think I've seen far too many munchkin constructs in the years I've played since 1st Ed

 

Of course, what's abuse in one game may be just right under another GM.

 

 

...darn kids! get outta my 5thRevised!...

[Warp9]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

I've realised that, having read a few threads recently, my background dissatisfaction with 5th edition probably stems from the fact that it is now a system that is meant to be applied to any genre you can think of, rather than specific ones, like superheroes. In fact, I should go back one step further and say 'I have realsied I HAVE a background dissatisfaction....'

 

I really do think this has not been a step forward, because Hero is not the best system for any number of genres and I think that broadening the focus has reduced the impact.

The problem with your above statement, at least from my perspective, is that I do not approach things from a "genre" viewpoint.

 

No game that I run is likely to fit into a specific genre, that is one of the reasons that I like Hero.

 

It is also interesting that, from one perspective, a "super-hero" game could be seen as a mixture of characters from many other worlds. In a super-hero game, Demi-Gods hang out with Mech-Pilots, and Wizards rub shoulders with Psionic Aliens.

 

But the "Super Hero Genre" is a different matter, that is where you get into the whole "spandex" thing.

 

Like many of the others here, I grew up reading comics . However, I'll take the "Kewl Powerz" and not bother with the spandex.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

I think that we need to clearly identify 'core rules' that run across every genre (i.e. 3d6 ' date=' roll low, to succeed at a task) and other rules that are optional. OK the system does that, although the optional and core rules are often intertwined pretty inextricably.[/quote']

 

I'm just jumping in here without reading any of the replies yet (probably a bad idea)...

 

The Hero System already does exactly what you are suggesting it do, unless you are suggesting the core rulebook gets extra inflated with this rules directly. Currently we have lots of genre books which detail which of the core rules to use, which to leave out, and adds any additional rules not found in the core rules that are unique to the genre.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

I generally like that breakdown, with one addition. The HERO Xth Rulebook - the big hardcover, has everything in it. So you never have to go searching from one book or another to find that one little power, or fiddly rule to make what you need. There needs to be one main core book that can be everything, rules wise, if you don't want to go searching through books.

Or perhaps the core rulebook is what you say - halfway between sidekick and 5er, and we also have the "Game reference book" that have everything. Or perhaps two refernces - one for character creation and one for combat.

I would like to see a core rulebook as suggested by zornwil: only the rules that are used by 3 major genre or more. Major being any of the primary genres published by Hero System (Champions, Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, Pulp Hero, or maybe rules that are useful in all four of those). If we also include every tiny genre specific rule all in one book it will get over inflated and too complex to read. Plus, why should a generic rulebook contain any rule that applies only to a single aspect of a single genre? It shouldn't.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Hmm. Just reading Dust Raven's response has made me think - always potentially dangerous.

 

The reason that it should contain every single little rule as opposed to convention or rule manipulation is that it is a toolbox from which a GM should be able to construct whatever kind of game he wants. It is not supposed to be a rulebook to cover the main three genres.

 

Now. Perhaps this would be a really good application of the title Advanced.

 

Hero could release a core rulebook that would be something along the size of third edition. Easy to get into, not too intimidating and meant to allow play of superheroes and fantasy straight out of the box.

 

The 'advanced' rulebook would be 5ER which would be the toolbox for the advanced HERO type wanting to engineer every detail of their game.

 

I'm not sure of the economics of this - it would be an additional step between Sidekick and 5ER and so could be seen as milking the market....

 

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Hmm. Just reading Dust Raven's response has made me think - always potentially dangerous.

 

The reason that it should contain every single little rule as opposed to convention or rule manipulation is that it is a toolbox from which a GM should be able to construct whatever kind of game he wants. It is not supposed to be a rulebook to cover the main three genres.

 

Now. Perhaps this would be a really good application of the title Advanced.

 

Hero could release a core rulebook that would be something along the size of third edition. Easy to get into, not too intimidating and meant to allow play of superheroes and fantasy straight out of the box.

 

The 'advanced' rulebook would be 5ER which would be the toolbox for the advanced HERO type wanting to engineer every detail of their game.

 

I'm not sure of the economics of this - it would be an additional step between Sidekick and 5ER and so could be seen as milking the market....

 

 

Doc

I think there's some lack of clarity. When I suggest that the core book use some sort of "critical mass" metric for what gets included, I don't mean that it still shouldn't be usable to create any sort of game. But the key word there is "construct". I don't think that you need detailed supers rules in order to construct a supers game, but the appeal should always be there for a genre book to grant further detail and instruction. But the core book still should enable one to build a supers game. What I am saying is that the particulars of superhero Instant Change, which should be a simple Talent in a genre book, should NOT be covered in any detail in a core book, just that the Instant Change capability be in there and it be generic, as it is something used in Champions, Fantasy, and Sci-Fi (at least). It will lack flavor for each of those genre, sure, but I think that's a better trade-off than trying to cram in every rule which is particular to each genre.

 

However, as I have said elsewhere, I like the idea of a core book which is fairly succinct and generally usable but also a sort of HERO Arcana tome that goes into great detail similar to 5ER, even more. I could see that as a yearly supplement. I would see such a work as being more about how the system works and how to tweak the system for all sorts of purposes. It would go into mathematical versus quantitative arguments on balance and so on. Nothing essential to just running a game, but (IMHO) still compelling to HERO's core audience of tweakers.

 

(PS - if you stripped down a core book to about 3rd edition size, you wouldn't need Sidekick)

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

I would like to see a core rulebook as suggested by zornwil: only the rules that are used by 3 major genre or more. Major being any of the primary genres published by Hero System (Champions' date=' Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, Pulp Hero, or maybe rules that are useful in all four of those). If we also include every tiny genre specific rule all in one book it will get over inflated and too complex to read. Plus, why should a generic rulebook contain any rule that applies only to a single aspect of a single genre? It shouldn't.[/quote']

 

I can see that. The martial arts rules in UMA, the exteded vehicle rules in TUV and such.

 

I just want characters completely portable between genres - you couldn't do that in 3rd for example.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

I can see Sean's point here.

 

As a kid it is exciting mixing colours - amazing that when you mix blue and yellow that you get green. The problem with it was that the more you mixed the more you inexorably moved toward brown....

 

Sometimes throwing everything in together does not make things more exciting.

 

It used to be nice picking up Fantasy Hero and seeing just what worked differently in an FH game rather than Champions.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a return to having genre specific rules in genre books (though I think there should be big rules discussion section in genre books discussing how to achieve look and feel). I like having everything in one book, I would simply highlight what rules are core [relevant to all genres] or which relate best to particular genres [Champions, FH, SH etc]. The easiest way to do this would be using colour on title bars but even icons would be useful.

 

This way it would be easier to enforce the presence or absence of particular builds for entry level players and GMs and would provide a pointer to the casual user the number of genres that the game does cover.

 

 

Doc

 

WHen i was a kid I loved the 64 and 128 caryons instead of the 8 basic color it allows for more creative work just because you have it all does not mean you have to use it all!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

I can see that. The martial arts rules in UMA, the exteded vehicle rules in TUV and such.

 

I just want characters completely portable between genres - you couldn't do that in 3rd for example.

What do you mean by "completely portable"? There are just some genres/settings you can't port into any other, or if you try only bad chaotic miss-matched things can happen (which could make for a fun game, but isn't for everybody). Sure, the rules are the [mostly] same, but a 900 point superhero shouldn't be joining a group of 150 point fantasy heroes that are tagging along with a 200 point Marine rifted in from Desert Storm complete with battle gear.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

What do you mean by "completely portable"? There are just some genres/settings you can't port into any other' date=' or if you try only bad chaotic miss-matched things can happen (which could make for a fun game, but isn't for everybody). Sure, the rules are the [mostly'] same, but a 900 point superhero shouldn't be joining a group of 150 point fantasy heroes that are tagging along with a 200 point Marine rifted in from Desert Storm complete with battle gear.

 

Hmmmm....Rifted....

 

I once played a really enjoyable game using the Palladium system. Then I actually read the rules and just got really angry. Perhaps there is a lesson in there for me....

[JmOz]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

I skimmed some, but what kept coming to my mind is what we need is something we had in 4th expanded some

 

A checklist that would include a listing of all of the optional rules (plus other benchmarks)

 

So a line from it would say

 

This campeign uses (Circle or Underline): Knockdown, Knockback, None, Other ______________

 

Then in each setting book a copy of the default for that setting and in each genre book a number of examples

[Dust Raven]

Re: Putting my finger on it

 

Hmmmm....Rifted....

 

I once played a really enjoyable game using the Palladium system. Then I actually read the rules and just got really angry. Perhaps there is a lesson in there for me....

 

I ran a really enjoyable game using Palladium until I started using the rules... for some reason it all fell apart and we started playing Champions...