Giants and Hit Locations

[Blue]

There's probably a rule regarding this, but I had trouble finding it tonight.

 

Say that your game allows called shots. Say your enemy is...oh... godzilla. A player declares he's going to take a called shot on Godzilla's head. Now he's got a physical limitation that due to his size he's -10 to his normal DCV.

 

How do you let this impact called shots? Do you say "He's a monster, I'm not letting in called shots", do you let them take the called shot and give the normal minus despite the fact that his head is incrdibly huge, or do you do something else?

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

There's probably a rule regarding this, but I had trouble finding it tonight.

 

Say that your game allows called shots. Say your enemy is...oh... godzilla. A player declares he's going to take a called shot on Godzilla's head. Now he's got a physical limitation that due to his size he's -10 to his normal DCV.

 

How do you let this impact called shots? Do you say "He's a monster, I'm not letting in called shots", do you let them take the called shot and give the normal minus despite the fact that his head is incrdibly huge, or do you do something else?

 

I don't have the numbers handy, but with increased size comes increased DCV penalties. Gojira's head is much easier to hit than, say, a skink's head. Expect a few range mods though, since Gojira's head is waaay above street level.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

If the shooter is on the ground, then Godzilla's head is going to have some range penalties to hit to offset the size, I suppose. =D

 

I wouldn't allow BODY multipliers on called shots to gargantuan things, though, or else I'd give the thing a hideous BODY score to account for the mass involved.

 

Might go as far as having a seperate hit location chart for the head and the body. That would allow for called shots to the eyes (to distract/enrage?), to the nostrils or mouth (to deliver biochemical agents maybe), etc.

 

I'm not sure the core rule book covers giant monsters in this regard, and unfortunately, I haven't got the new bestiary to see if there are any suggestions there.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

I would allow called shots to "smaller" large creatures, say a regular giant. Someone who's the size of a train car, for instance.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

Pattern Ghost & Manic Typist:

 

I just don't see what the problem is. Big things are easier to hit than smaller things. If your target is the size of a building, called shots ought to be easier than with a smaller target so long as the creature in question is not so bizarre that an attacker can't tell the head from any other part.

 

Godzilla is a big, tough kaiju. Nothing less than another giant rubber suit should be much of a concern for such as he. Unless you're using a pathetically weak build for your giant monster or running a comedic campaign, the big, building-sized monster should not be rendered hors de combat by a shot to the groin.

[Shaft]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

If Godzilla is 128m (64") tall, using the ruyles from the Growth power (p.183 5R.ed) he gets a -12 to his DCV. He also gets +18 BODY, 32" of reach, +90 to his STR and 18" of KB resistance.

 

To hit his head, the shooter's OCV would be at -8. The range modifier for ~110m (55"- I assume the shooter is content to hit the bottom of Godzilla's head) adds another -8 to the OCV. The net result is that a called shot for Godzilla's head gives Godzilla a net +4 DCV.

 

The vitals might be a better shot since the range modifer would be a little less (-6). Of course, these numbers assume that the shooter is within Godzilla's impressive +32" of reach, so it might be prudent to fall back a little where you're out of his reach, but can Set and Brace as well.

 

I'd allow called shots to be made, but I'd also build Godzilla with some Damage Reduction in addition to his impressive resistant PD and ED.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

There's a recent thread on this issue on the Fantasy board here

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

This particular example may be a little extreme. Considering that Godzilla's power level is beyond that of any heroic-level campaign that doesn't allow one either to carry man-portable nukes or to summon Cthulhu, I have to question using Hit Locations in this case.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

Hit Locations are typically not used in superhero-genre games ... if they are being used, I'd say it's just a matter of the GM taking that into account and giving Godzilla high enough defenses and enough body to balance the encounter.

[gojira]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

There's a lot of good discussion in the thread Hugh references. Including the fact that extra stun from head and other vital shots don't seem to be "realistic."

 

It might be useful to give very large monsters extra PD and Damage Reduction vs. Real Weapons to simulate the idea that small weapons just bounce off him. Something like "Real Weapons less than 2 inch bore" or something. Armor does this to an extent, but the stun multiplier for head shots can sometimes make for unpredictable (or unanticipated) results.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

I was about to say that if you don't have ranged weapons, the Giant hit location chart should read:

3-5: Leg

6-9: Ankle

10-18: Foot

 

But in the case of ranged weapons, sure I'd allow people to target Godzilla's head. The only downside is that I'd also give Godzilla 75% damage reduction at least so he really wouldn't care that much about getting shot in the noggin with a tank round. (and he really doesn't)

[Manic Typist]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

Pattern Ghost & Manic Typist:

 

I just don't see what the problem is. Big things are easier to hit than smaller things. If your target is the size of a building, called shots ought to be easier than with a smaller target so long as the creature in question is not so bizarre that an attacker can't tell the head from any other part.

 

 

I don't have a problem with it, as long as the truly big baddies are built appropriately.

 

I was arguing that a "small" large creature, such as a giant (twelve, thirteen feet tall, twenty, etc) should have normal hit location rules and pluses to hit because of its size.

[Blue]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

The point about the distance to the head is important. I'll need to remember that next time.

 

Thanks for the info so far.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

There's a lot of good discussion in the thread Hugh references. Including the fact that extra stun from head and other vital shots don't seem to be "realistic."

 

It might be useful to give very large monsters extra PD and Damage Reduction vs. Real Weapons to simulate the idea that small weapons just bounce off him. Something like "Real Weapons less than 2 inch bore" or something. Armor does this to an extent, but the stun multiplier for head shots can sometimes make for unpredictable (or unanticipated) results.

 

Most kaiju are really huge creatures. They often have relatively tiny brains protected by really thick, dense skulls. Their skin is often so thick that you need artillery shells just to take tissue samples. Their skeletons are made of material that resembles bone but must be immeasurably stronger or they would crumble under their own weight unless they spent all their time in the water. Most of these creatures hawk radioactive loogies and their flatus probably makes nerve gas look pleasant by comparison. They are more heavily armored than the greatest battleships ever built. Even if Joe Hero fires an RPG up a kaiju's left nostril, it will very likely only serve to clear the monster's sinuses.

 

Using the hit location chart against really huge monsters is about as logical as using them against tidal waves, earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanoes or hurricanes. Some things are on such a vast scale that they rival forces of nature. Except where the PCs are able to meet the giant rubber monsters on their own terms (giant robots or special anti-kaiju weapons) I'd only use the hit location chart if you really think it might make a difference. I might make an exception in cases where body damage actually penetrated the giant monster's defense. Damage reduction is advised in any case (the bigger/tougher the monster, the more DR it has).

 

In the case of giant, but not kaiju-scaled creatures, I see no reason not to use the hit location table. I'd make exceptions where a monster was amorphous (a car-sized people-eating amoeboa, f'rinstance) or homogenous (example: iron golem). Exceptionally large or tough creatures would have high defenses and (possibly) damage reduction in any case.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

One approach not yet mentioned (I think) would be to buy Damage Reduction that only applies to certain hit locations. You hit him in the foot? 1x STUN Multiple, no reduction. Head shot? Oh, his 3/4 damage reduction (only to locations with a 5x Stun Multiple for KA's) kicks in.

[Blue]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

Creature in question already had 75% damage reduction in the write-up. I dropped it to 50 for this game just to demonstrate that his was a "baby", not the momma.

 

I think in the future I'm not going to allow hit locations on things above a certain size. It's the Mosquito effect; Heroes buzzing around his head should probably be doing about the same there as anywhere else. Now if hero grew larger and closed that gap, I'd probably allow it. Just makes better thematic sense.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

Pattern Ghost & Manic Typist:

 

I just don't see what the problem is. Big things are easier to hit than smaller things. If your target is the size of a building, called shots ought to be easier than with a smaller target so long as the creature in question is not so bizarre that an attacker can't tell the head from any other part.

 

Godzilla is a big, tough kaiju. Nothing less than another giant rubber suit should be much of a concern for such as he. Unless you're using a pathetically weak build for your giant monster or running a comedic campaign, the big, building-sized monster should not be rendered hors de combat by a shot to the groin.

 

I'm pretty sure that nothing I said contradicts your opinion. Adding more sensitive spots to hit makes it easier to do something meaningful to the monster, doesn't it?

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

I think in the future I'm not going to allow hit locations on things above a certain size. It's the Mosquito effect; Heroes buzzing around his head should probably be doing about the same there as anywhere else. Now if hero grew larger and closed that gap' date=' I'd probably allow it. Just makes better thematic sense.[/quote']

 

Makes sense to me.

 

Not all monsters are, strictly speaking, characters. If the monster is supposed to be an unstoppable force of nature, write it up that way and (as the GM) simply declare, either openly or through character interaction, that the means to cause actual, lasting harm is unavailable to the heroes. Of course, in such a case, damage should either attract the monster's attention (so you can lead it into a trap that you hope will stop the creature) or turn it away (so you can herd it into the above-mentioned trap). Sometimes the heroes are limited to helping innocents trying to flee, putting out fires, and detecting the weak spot that, if Missile Command aims right, might prove the monster's downfall.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

Perhaps the easiest solution would be to allow these giant monsters to take the "No Hit Locations" automaton power.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

If Godzilla is 128m (64") tall, using the ruyles from the Growth power (p.183 5R.ed) he gets a -12 to his DCV. He also gets +18 BODY, 32" of reach, +90 to his STR and 18" of KB resistance.

 

To hit his head, the shooter's OCV would be at -8. The range modifier for ~110m (55"- I assume the shooter is content to hit the bottom of Godzilla's head) adds another -8 to the OCV. The net result is that a called shot for Godzilla's head gives Godzilla a net +4 DCV.

Shaft,

 

I wasn't sure exactly how the rules on 5Er p.373 applied, so I asked the question here. It turns out that the 'DCV cannot go below 0' rule is applied first, so Godzilla (presumably) goes to 0 DCV (unless his DEX is at least 38!), then the shooter goes to -16 OCV, and (presumably, unless his OCV is more than 16!) the negative OCV is then applied to Godzilla's DCV, making the shot *worse* than the +4 DCV result listed above.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

I agree with Hugh Nielson that the 'No Hit Locations' Power is the most appropriate way to deal with the situation, assuming that Hit Locations are used in the first place.

[Blue]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

One of my players proposed an interesting compromise that I'm considering:

 

As it would be right now, Hero (9 OCV - 8 for "head shot" = 1 OCV) attacks Monster (5 DCV -10 due to size = -5 DCV) = 17- chance to hit him in the head, which is too easy for a "head shot" quality hit.

 

Instead, specifying a headshot, you leave off the size bonus. That is, he's huge and nearly invulnerable, so maybe his vulnerable spots are still so small they're -8 to hit them at headshot equivalent effect.

 

So the same attack becomes Hero (9 OCV - 8 Hit location= 1 OCV) versus Monster (5 DCV) = 7- to target the "head shot equivalent" location on the target. It still makes it hard to specify a quality hit and at the same time allows them in the game. I think it might work.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

Do negative DCV values add to the attacker's OCV?

 

I'm not sure how I feel about that, blue. It looks (correct me if I am wrong) exactly like a normal headshot (in terms of mechanics) with NO benefits for how huge this thing is. I can see the goal, but what about you only allow the size modifiers to bring the creature's DCV down to zero? So using your figures, it would be a 12- to hit (with the negative 8) the head.

[Blue]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

It would be a normal headshot statistically. Mathematically it represents that you can still get in a good, focused shot by targeting a specific part of the monster, it just doesn't make that spot so huge that the monster becomes easy to crush.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Giants and Hit Locations

 

It would be a normal headshot statistically. Mathematically it represents that you can still get in a good' date=' focused shot by targeting a specific part of the monster, it just doesn't make that spot so huge that the monster becomes easy to crush.[/quote']

 

Just how feeble is this hypothetical creature? Perhaps you're forgetting to give the creature a monstrous CON score so it's that much more difficult to stun?