How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

[Hyper-Man]

Hi gang,

 

Should there be another Advantage for an external englobing Force Wall that allows it to be "dragged along" in the same way that someone grabbed by TK can? Should this instead be modelled via Physical Manifestation and TK?

 

example:

Any Justice League fan has probably seen Green Lantern englobe other characters (friends or foes) in an external Force Wall of green energy and then fly off with them in tow.

 

According to the current rules a Force Wall can't be moved unless it's centered on the power's owner or has the Mobile Advantage which has it's own specific movement rate cost* un-connected to that of the power's owner. (*that can get quite expensive quickly). Conversly, a character grabbed via Telekinesis can be "dragged along" at whatever the TK owner's movement rate is. In HERO it is easy to model this effect via an AOE TK but this doesn't provide an easy mechanic to represent the external defense of the TK "hand".

 

However it's done, I'm looking for "concrete builds" to stat out the ubiquitous VPP that is usually created for GL-like characters.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

I'd just use TK, Linked to the Force Wall.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

Perhaps Force Field, Usable as Attack? Or an Entangle, only to form Barriers?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

Assuming Green Lantern Clone (GLC) has both force wall and TK, you can take advantage of the indirect nature of TK - it ignores the force wall, so you can get at the characters inside, and drag them along. However you cannot use the FW globe to drag them directly - it is very much against the rules, so everyone in the globe would need to be grabbed and dragged, and you would have to stop if anyone broke out of the TK grab.

 

You might need an AE TK to grab the more slippery customers, and I'd match the TK and FW so that an attack strong enough to break the FW would also be enough to escape the TK....assuming you could escape TK with, say, an EB: of course if you had linked the TK to the force wall then you would lose the TK when the wall broke anyway, but that does prevent you using teh TK for non-forcewall type stuff.

 

Ages ago someone suggested that GLC force bubbles could be modelled as summoned vehicles, or even bizarre creatures. Personally I am not in favour but it could work, I suppose, for that particular trick: summon green globe, lift globe with TK....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

However you cannot use the FW globe to drag them directly

 

However, the current rules do allow you to move a Force Wall if it has the Mobile Advantage. It just does not implicitly allow the Force Wall to be dragged along with the character creating it if it is not centered on that character.

 

It seems rather strange that TK, which is not supposed to have any action/reaction, gets a free loophole in this situation but Force Wall does not.

 

I understand that given enough points a compound power with TK & FoWa can be built to describe the effect. However, it is highly unlikely such a power can be fitted to an otherwise starting character (350-375 points). Every other Justice League character can be built on that point scale while preserving their essential elements. Why cant this concept also fit that point scale?

[Zed-F]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

Sure you can do it. You just have to build an appropriate power construct and get GM permission for it.

 

Suppose you have:

GL Ring Reserve (60 AP, IIF (-1/4))

- Force Wall

- Force Field

- TK

- ...

 

Then add, outside the MP,

STR x TK, Linked to FW (-1/2), affects whole target (-1/4), cannot do squeeze damage (-1/2), only to grab targets encased in FW (-1/2), etc.

 

When you englobe someone in the FW, you can rapid attack or MPA to grab them with the TK as well. Since the TK is outside the MP, this is not a problem. Just make sure you limit it heavily enough that it's not too expensive; you'll probably also want to buy it with less STR than your MP TK has as well, to save points. Because of the SFX, you might be able to swing it past the GM that the target has to break the FW to break out of the grab; you're really grabbing the FW bubble, after all, and not the target directly.

 

Alternatively, you can make your FW bubble-trap an Entangle, rather than a FW. Then you can grab the entangled character normally on your next phase with the TK. This option is simpler and cleaner, but takes 2 phases to do (again, unless you buy your TK outside of the MP and MPA it.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

Sure you can do it. You just have to build an appropriate power construct and get GM permission for it.

 

Suppose you have:

GL Ring Reserve (60 AP, IIF (-1/4))

- Force Wall

- Force Field

- TK

- ...

 

Then add, outside the MP,

STR x TK, Linked to FW (-1/2), affects whole target (-1/4), cannot do squeeze damage (-1/2), only to grab targets encased in FW (-1/2), etc.

 

When you englobe someone in the FW, you can rapid attack or MPA to grab them with the TK as well. Since the TK is outside the MP, this is not a problem. Just make sure you limit it heavily enough that it's not too expensive; you'll probably also want to buy it with less STR than your MP TK has as well, to save points. Because of the SFX, you might be able to swing it past the GM that the target has to break the FW to break out of the grab; you're really grabbing the FW bubble, after all, and not the target directly.

 

Alternatively, you can make your FW bubble-trap an Entangle, rather than a FW. Then you can grab the entangled character normally on your next phase with the TK. This option is simpler and cleaner, but takes 2 phases to do (again, unless you buy your TK outside of the MP and MPA it.)

 

Still overly complex for what it does.

 

I think an additional or alternative advantage to Mobile might be the simplist method. Call it Attached.

 

Attached: A Force Wall with this advantage cannot be moved independently (in that case use Mobile) but it can be dragged along with the owning character without the need to also be centered on him or her . Suggested cost of between +1/4 and +3/4.

[RPMiller]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

I think this is one for Mr. Long to rule on. I am curious about this as well.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

I think this is one for Mr. Long to rule on. I am curious about this as well.

 

I welcome someone else to try this.

 

Every time I try it comes out as a "how to question".

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

So... you want to build a bubble that contains people and can be moved? Er. Okay.

 

I'm not familiar enough with the Entangle rules to do this off the cuff, but the upshot of "How I'd do it if I were you" is this:

 

Entangle. Your entangle follows the same premise as a pair of hand cuffs -- you can take the hand cuffs any where. You can put them on or take them off people. It doesn't stop you from moving the person in question. This is the crucial bit. Now you've changed the SFX from "restraints" to "glowy green ball."

 

Move people as you would normally. In this case, a TK or the like would be simplest. I actually like the idea of summoning a vehicle 'around' the victims with no entry or exit that then can move under its own power with direction from its owner, but I can see where some might find that on the kludgey side. However, it perfectly explains how he can move people through space.

 

Summon Green Movement Field, Field Doubles as a Prison, Mega-Scale Movement + Regular Movement, and so on. When I'm a little more alert and a little less distracted I'll post a genuine build, but that's probably (based on the rambling thoughts in the post) the method I would settle on. Vehicle, Usable Against Others.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

I hadn't seriously considered a summoned vehicle before.

 

I am assuming that the "vehicle" would have no movement abilites of it's own other than perhaps Flight 1" on to hover. All actual movement would have to be by outside means to be usefull as a cage.

 

The nuts and bolts question then becomes how do you create an easy to use sliding scale when creating the green energy "vehicle" where the more passengers it carries the lower the defense it provides?

[RPMiller]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

I welcome someone else to try this.

 

Every time I try it comes out as a "how to question".

Start it off as "Is it legal to do X, and if not, how should it be done?" See if that garners a decent response.

[LoresLost]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

My memory systems are actually working. I remembered the previous discussion on GL Bubbles here. It is primarily how to do them as a summons vehicle.

 

Hopefully useful.

[gojira]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

I'm thinking that Force Wall and TK alone might be enough.

 

Maybe Force Field, Usable On Other to simulate the defense, plus TK. Considering that FW might be a bit better in this instance (it tends to prevent all damage), the FW build might need to be just a bit better (cost a bit more) than FF UOO.

 

I'd look at the option, points-wise, including the most expensive, then decide what you think is the most appropriate for the cost and utility.

 

Another obvious one: TK with the SFX that you englobe them.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

My memory systems are actually working. I remembered the previous discussion on GL Bubbles here. It is primarily how to do them as a summons vehicle.

 

Hopefully useful.

 

thank you!

[RPMiller]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

I just uploaded some files to that thread. A prefab and a vehicle.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

I just uploaded some files to that thread. A prefab and a vehicle.

 

thanks.

 

I still don't see this as elegant a solution as an a new advantage for Force Wall. It's "fire (summon) and forget" with regard to the reserves of Multipowers and VPPs and is way too combat effective as a replacement for a Force Wall. I wonder if the base cost for summoning a vehicle shouldn't be raised by x2 or x4.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

My memory systems are actually working. I remembered the previous discussion on GL Bubbles here. It is primarily how to do them as a summons vehicle.

 

Hopefully useful.

 

Boy, didn't I get tetchy?

[JmOz]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

yup, I want to restate what I said about the vehicle method.

 

As designed it was intended to be used as primarily a transportation thing, not a entangle or force wall. It was really for the "I'll fly us to Omega 7" type of thing, or the ship being destroyed, etc...

 

My Gl clone would also have entangle, force wall, TK, etc...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

yup, I want to restate what I said about the vehicle method.

 

As designed it was intended to be used as primarily a transportation thing, not a entangle or force wall. It was really for the "I'll fly us to Omega 7" type of thing, or the ship being destroyed, etc...

 

My Gl clone would also have entangle, force wall, TK, etc...

 

JmOz,

it's a fine build according to existing rules. Sorry if I gave a different impression. It just seems to require a bit too much GM-Handwavium when used for my tastes.

 

I almost feel like Goldilocks ( of ...and the Three Bears) in search of something between Papa Bear's porridge (brute force method, "too hot" or expensive) and Mama Bear's (Summon Vehicle, "too cold" or cheap). I'm looking for "just right". No big deal, but a fun exercise (to me).

[BobGreenwade]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

I think this is one for Mr. Long to rule on. I am curious about this as well.

It certainly is something to be addressed in TUEP....

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

What would you think of this done as:

 

Entangle, (Probably AoE), Only To Create Barriers

Plus TK, or some other means to move the Bubble-shaped Barrier around

 

? The OTCB is to reflect that the person(s) in the bubble are free to move around within it. They have full use of Accessible Foci and movement maneuvers. The only wierd thing about it is that the barrier isn't actually anchored to anything, other than itself, so it can be picked up and moved around. It seems logical and fair, but maybe an unanchored barrier is a little more powerful than barriers which must be anchored.

 

So how 'bout this (just thinking out loud here):

 

If "Only to Create Barriers" (which must be anchored, by default) is a -1 lim, then, "Only to Create Unanchored Barriers" might be -3/4, and "Only to Create Barriers that may be either Anchored or Unanchored" might be -1/2.

 

Or should an Entangle with no limitation be allowed in the first place to create an Unanchored barrier? Remembering of course that the Entangle power itself can't actually move the barrier, even if it is unanchored, but would require an additional power (TK or STR, usually) to move it.

 

And of course a person inside the bubble might be able to move it, if they have sufficient TK/STR/other power.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: How to model GL dragging along an englobing Force Wall?

 

How about an adder: Common sense force wall +0. Then link a FW with some AE TK. Just let the stupid FW move as long as you have enough TK STR to lift the contents. That works fine for willing targets. For the unwilling, TK + Entangle. Done.