Which books do I need?

[Erekose]

Hi this is my first post here but I'm a long time poster on ENWorld (as I play D&D), at the suggestion of one of the people there (thanks Theron!) I'm reposting my question from http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=191257

 

Back in the day . . . some twenty odd (25?) years ago I used to play Champions 1st edition with my gaming group. I've never been near it (or any other superhero RPG) since and believe it is now part of the Hero system (?).

 

So my question is what gaming books would I need to play a Champions campaign using the current ruleset?

 

And as a bonus question - how much does the rule system today differ from 1st edition?

 

Many thanks!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Hero System Fifth Edition, Revised contains all the rules you need to play.

 

the Champions book is a genre book on how to tailor the rules to Superheros.

 

There are a number of books that could make life easier, but are not needed to play.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

And as a bonus question - how much does the rule system today differ from 1st edition?

 

How different than 1st Edition? Wow! Quite a bit really. The core concepts of the rules are still the same: Eight primary stats, six figured stats, combat resolution via 3d6 revolving around the number 11, point-build characters, etc, etc.

 

Since 1st edition, many new powers and rewrites of old powers; point costs of disadvatanges altered somewhat; new advatanges and limitations plus reworking of many old ones; a full set of skills, talents, and perks as part of the core rules; much tweaking to make the rules universal (as opposed to the 1st thru 3rd edition era where each genre got a specialized version of the rules). The list goes on and on - and it's been many years since I've even looked at a 1st edition book. Someone else can fill in more.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Welcome, Erekose! Glad you could take time out from eternal championing to visit us. You came to the right place - we're generally a pretty friendly and helpful bunch, especially to newbies.

 

All you actually need to play supers or any other genre in HERO is the HERO System Fifth Edition, Revised rulebook. (That link will take you to a product description and to where you can purchase the book.) "5ER" (as it's often referred to here) contains virtually all the system rules in one package. The most that any other book contains are optional rules expanding certain areas of the system, but they're all based on that book. If you're familiar with the game genre you're interested in and willing to do some work preparing your own characters, the ground rules for your campaign, and so on, 5ER would give you all you need.

 

However, the HERO System has changed tremendously since that first edition of Champions. Most of the basic concepts are pretty much the same, but as you'll see from that link the game has become much more detailed. It's now a universal system, internally consistent, extremely flexible and customizable, but also far more rules-robust. You would find many differences from what you remember, and the initial learning curve is rather steep. Since you're coming to the game almost fresh, I would suggest starting out by picking up the HERO System Sidekick. That's a slimmed-down (and much cheaper) version of the ruleset designed to teach the game to beginners. Almost all of the core rules are there, just with the detailed clarifications and numerous optional elements trimmed out. SK is actually a complete playable game in itself; you could use 90% of the material published for HERO Fifth Edition with SK alone. Once you're comfortable with the system you could upgrade to the full game, or if you decide that it's not for you you're not out much.

 

Since you indicate that you're not too familiar with supers gaming, you might want to look up the Champions genre book. All the "genre books" published by Hero Games provide detailed, comprehensive guidelines and examples for how to use HERO to play in that genre of game. HG also publishes extensive support for Champions, which you can view here. There are many other books designed to apply to all game genres (this being a universal system and all) that might interest you, but I'll wait to mention those until you give more indication of what you're looking for.

 

All of the above links will also let you access this website's Online Store where you can buy the hardcopies of the books in question; but you should know that most of them are also available in cheaper PDF form (as downloads or on CD) from this section of the store. Sidekick in particular is much cheaper (although the PDF is not "revised" like the hardcopy, but in this case the differences are minor), and that would be the least expensive way to sample the game.

 

If there's anything else we could help you with, please don't hesitate to post followups.

[Silbeg]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

I might add Champions Universe and Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks to give you a campaign world and some villains to work with (as well as examples of character builds).

 

If you are looking for help in power builds, the UNTIL Superpower Database(s) are good helps, though really not quite required.

 

Finally, if you are really getting into the system, the Hero Designer software is a great help in building characters, etc.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Basically, it's what ghost-angel said. The rulebook and Champions itself are all you really need. Other bits, like the USDB and Ultimate books, are just extra help, and they do that job very well.

[Theron]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Hi this is my first post here but I'm a long time poster on ENWorld (as I play D&D), at the suggestion of one of the people there (thanks Theron!) I'm reposting my question from http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=191257

 

Back in the day . . . some twenty odd (25?) years ago I used to play Champions 1st edition with my gaming group. I've never been near it (or any other superhero RPG) since and believe it is now part of the Hero system (?).

 

So my question is what gaming books would I need to play a Champions campaign using the current ruleset?

 

And as a bonus question - how much does the rule system today differ from 1st edition?

 

Many thanks!

 

I have nothing to add to what the others have said about the system, but welcome aboard!

[sbarron]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

All of these suggestions are good, and will you provide you with a rich gaming world and all the rules you could need. However, if money is a concern, or if you feel you might be overwhelmed by trying to learn the entire Hero System all at once, I'd suggest buying the Hero Sidekick, Revised.

 

Everything you need to play, in one small inexpensive book. Makes it easier to get one for each member of your gaming group, too.

 

http://www.herogames.com/SideKick/index.jsp

[L. Marcus]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Buy them all! Each and every one!

 

This message not brought to you by DOJ, Inc, d. b. a. Hero Games

[Fedifensor]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

As a side note to those here...that thread has a lot of people saying HERO is "too complex" or recommending M&M instead of HERO. Just in case you want to stop by the thread and offer your own opinion.

 

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=191257

[Spence]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Welcome,

 

and ditto to what they said

[Erekose]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Thanks for all of the replies - particulalry Lord Liaden - really comprehensive!

 

I am a little at a crossroads in that, for my gaming group, M&M will have a lot of appeal as its based on the d20 mechanic (which they are familiar with via D&D) and I'll certainly be looking into it further.

 

However, while it is going back a fair while, IMHO the "feel" of the original Champions ruleset was more appropriate for a superhero RPG than d20.

 

So, I guess I need to do a bit more digging in terms of how much that flavour is still present in the 5ER (and how much of it is just romantacised by time!) and how much M&M is different from D&D.

 

As the Hero System Sidekick is available for around UK£6 its not a huge investment to test the water with . . . as for M&M there is a free chapter on character creation available that I'll take a look at which at least will give me some basis to form an opinion on.

 

Thanks for your help.

[gojira]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Welcome Valkyrie ..., er Erekose!

 

Sidekick is a pretty good idea. Good move there.

 

There are a couple of things you should know, however. The rules for Frameworks (Multipowers and Environmental Controls) in Sidekick are much abridged from the full form. Multipowers are able to mix multi and ultra slots in the same Multipower. And Environmental Controls *can* have slots which cost more than twice the base cost, you just pay the difference.

 

Plus, Variable Power Pools aren't covered at all. But they're a tad more complicated anyway. Ask if you want the scoop.

[Theron]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Welcome Valkyrie ..., er Erekose!

 

Sidekick is a pretty good idea. Good move there.

 

There are a couple of things you should know, however. The rules for Frameworks (Multipowers and Environmental Controls) in Sidekick are much abridged from the full form. Multipowers are able to mix multi and ultra slots in the same Multipower. And Environmental Controls *can* have slots which cost more than twice the base cost, you just pay the difference.

 

Plus, Variable Power Pools aren't covered at all. But they're a tad more complicated anyway. Ask if you want the scoop.

 

Well, if the last version he played was 1st edition, the fact that Elemental Controls can have more than three slots is already going to be a quantum change.

 

(One wonders what he'll think of Mechanon having Life Support?)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

As the Hero System Sidekick is available for around UK£6 its not a huge investment to test the water with . . . as for M&M there is a free chapter on character creation available that I'll take a look at which at least will give me some basis to form an opinion on.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Say, Erekose, since you're talking "free," I should mention that there are several free PDFs downloadable from this webpage that would give you a taste of how HERO today works and how it's set up. I particularly refer you to an Introduction to some of the basic mechanics of the system, a Summary of the Combat sequence (the most complex element of HERO apart from character creation), and guidelines and examples for using HERO to run various game Genres.

 

I also recommend a couple of very illustrative tutorials posted to these discussion forums a while back: this one provides step-by-step character generation examples, while this one gives detailed narrative examples of combat. Both threads deal with both "heroic level" (most fantasy, sci-fi, pulp etc.) and "superheroic" games.

[Erekose]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Say' date=' Erekose, since you're talking "free," I should mention that there are several free PDFs downloadable from this webpage that would give you a taste of how HERO today works and how it's set up. I particularly refer you to an Introduction to some of the basic mechanics of the system, a Summary of the Combat sequence (the most complex element of HERO apart from character creation), and guidelines and examples for using HERO to run various game Genres.

 

I also recommend a couple of very illustrative tutorials posted to these discussion forums a while back: this one provides step-by-step character generation examples, while this one gives detailed narrative examples of combat. Both threads deal with both "heroic level" (most fantasy, sci-fi, pulp etc.) and "superheroic" games.

 

Cheers!

[jushin53]

Re: Which books do I need?

 

Erekose- To answer your core question, there are certainly concessions that have been made in terms of "feel" between 1st-3rd and later editions. Champions was last an actual game in 3rd edition...it has morphed/evolved into a genre book as HERO has evolved from multiple games with tweaked rules into one system with genre books.

 

I have a good set of 3rd edition books and prefer to play Champions that way because I like the flavor and concessions that make 3rd a great 4-color supers game, holes and all.

 

That doesn't invalidate 5th at all, however...it is a great system and does a lot that I like. Dark Champions in particular does more for 5th than just about any book in the line IMHO.

 

It all depends on feel and what you enjoy...