Haymaker Variant Rule

[scholz]

Imagine this, Diamond Head, the invulnerable brick faces a pack of Hells Angels. One take a mighty swing at Diamond Head and breaks his fist. The others run.

 

How can we simulate this?

I think one mechanism would be a variant of the rules on Movethorough.

 

If the attacker does no body or stun or knockback, the attacker takes full damage from his own melee attack. If the attacker is using a melee weapon, then the weapon takes the full damage, and the attacker takes 1/2 the stun.

If hit locations are used, the striking part takes the damage.

 

Why only for Hay Makers? Well this is to simulate that most strikes are not done with so much force to hurt the assailant.

 

This could also work for inanimate objects. That would prevent normals from busting their way out of brick prisons (by pushing and haymakering until they rolled enough damage to break out), they would more likely knock themselves out.

 

So what do you think?

[pinecone]

Sounds reasonable...I beleive Golden age champions had something like it...I tend towards the fast and loose,wingin it style. So I tend to handle many things without bothering with exact rules..."Dude, you are just going to break your hands" rather than "It will do X damage to location Y" but if your style heads in that direction,it should work just fine...though what do you do with MA attacks..."Sorry Bats, you bust your hand on Gronds mighty hide"...."@#$%^!"

[Lord Liaden]

Self-Inflicted Damage: This is a rule adapted from the original (pre-4th Ed.) Golden Age of Champions, with one modification from advice on the discussion boards (Thanks Alistair). I use it mostly for heroic level games, to simulate a normal person striking a hard, unyielding object with a part of their bodies and injuring themselves if they can't break it. Whenever you strike an object with resistant defenses (including characters), you roll your damage normally; if the Body damage you roll is higher than the resistant defense of the object, you take no damage. However, if you don't roll more Body than the resistant defense, you take the full damage yourself, modified by the multipliers for the Hit Location of the body part you used to strike with. If you're not using Hit Locations in your game, just use the original form of the rule, in which the hitter takes half damage as if he had performed a Move Through.

 

Obviously the chance of doing damage to yourself would be greater for a character performing a Haymaker; in my experience most characters can ignore the effects of SID unless their damaging capability is high compared to their defenses.

[Chris Goodwin]

I've postulated an Advantage for Resistant Defenses called Rigid Defenses. Mainly, the Rigid Defenses would subtract their BODY from the BODY of a Killing Attack before determining STUN, rather than after. Rigid Defenses would also fall under the Self-Inflicted Damage rule. Rigid Defenses would be a +1/4 Advantage.

[Gary]

Originally posted by archer

I've postulated an Advantage for Resistant Defenses called Rigid Defenses. Mainly, the Rigid Defenses would subtract their BODY from the BODY of a Killing Attack before determining STUN, rather than after. Rigid Defenses would also fall under the Self-Inflicted Damage rule. Rigid Defenses would be a +1/4 Advantage.

 

This is way too powerful an advantage for a +1/4. Consider that a person who has 20 resistant PD would pay 7 pts to be essentially immune to all physical killing attacks. Not many killing attacks will do any sort of damage after subtracting 20 body from the attack.

[Guest Keneton]

Agreed

 

I agree with Gary about the +1/4 advantage, although I do like the idea behind it, perhaps another thread. . .

 

Back to the main thing on Haymakers. I like this idea, but I am not so sure on the mechanics issues yet. Lord Liadon's suggestion does make sense. It would make a great rule in Heroic campaigns, but may slow down Superheroic combats. Limiting this rule variant to only pushes or haymakers may in fact be the compromise needed to make it playable.

 

Good thread idea!

[Klytus]

Originally posted by archer

I've postulated an Advantage for Resistant Defenses called Rigid Defenses. Mainly, the Rigid Defenses would subtract their BODY from the BODY of a Killing Attack before determining STUN, rather than after. Rigid Defenses would also fall under the Self-Inflicted Damage rule. Rigid Defenses would be a +1/4 Advantage.

The only other way to simulate this in game is with a Force Wall. Consider a brick with this as a defense: Force Wall 13 PD/ED (65 points), Invisible to All Senses (+1), Reduced END & Persistent (+1), Uncontrolled (+½), Personal Immunity, (+¼) , Self Only (-½). Active Point Cost: 244. Total Cost: 163 points.

 

Basically, unless an attack does more than 13 BODY, he takes NO damage from it. Because the FW invisible, it appears as if it is simply natural toughness soaking up the damage. Because it is Persistent & Uncontrolled, it will come up again immediately after it is penetrated. The Personal Immunity allows him to interact normally with the real world as if the FW was not there (which, in reality, it isn't - the FW is just a mechanic to reflect his defenses). I didn't buy it Always On because that is not a Limiting factor here.

 

But, if we just stuck this Rigid advantage on 13 PD/ED of Armor, it would replicate 163 real points of power for just 49 points.

 

Um.... no.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Klytus

The only other way to simulate this in game is with a Force Wall. Consider a brick with this as a defense: Force Wall 13 PD/ED (65 points), Invisible to All Senses (+1), Reduced END & Persistent (+1), Uncontrolled (+½), Personal Immunity, (+¼) , Self Only (-½). Active Point Cost: 244. Total Cost: 163 points.

 

Basically, unless an attack does more than 13 BODY, he takes NO damage from it. Because the FW invisible, it appears as if it is simply natural toughness soaking up the damage. Because it is Persistent & Uncontrolled, it will come up again immediately after it is penetrated. The Personal Immunity allows him to interact normally with the real world as if the FW was not there (which, in reality, it isn't - the FW is just a mechanic to reflect his defenses). I didn't buy it Always On because that is not a Limiting factor here.

 

But, if we just stuck this Rigid advantage on 13 PD/ED of Armor, it would replicate 163 real points of power for just 49 points.

 

Um.... no.

 

Rigid Armor would be even better than a force wall that never falls down. A KA that penetrates the FW would still do full stun minus the FW. Rigid armor subtracts the body before the stun multiple.

 

Ex: A 20 body 80 stun attack would do 7 body 67 stun through the FW applied to the person's regular defenses.

 

A 20 body 80 stun attack vs 13 rigid armor would do 7 body 28 stun applied to the person's non-rigid defenses.

 

It's more than 163 pts of effect for 49 pts.

[scholz]

Is anyone seriously considering something like Rigid Armor?

 

I was really just talking about taking a some damage for haymakering something tough.

 

There are probably ways to buy this effect as a power (eg. Damage Shield). But that would seem odd for say a generic concrete wall. And yet if I hit a generic concrete wall with all my might, I am not likely to break it (although with 5 1/2 d6 of normal damage I could do it). I would be likely to hurt myself.

 

I was thinking more of a combat affect like the damage from movebys and movethroughs.

 

Maybe limiting it resistant defenses (most walls and such) and Haymakers is the way to go. I would probably give the 1/2 stun for hit locations (hand) or x2 (for head), even if I didn't use the locations normally to simulate that is unlikely you'd knock yourself out with a punch to a wall. But that you might actually do it with a head butt.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Gary

Rigid Armor would be even better than a force wall that never falls down. A KA that penetrates the FW would still do full stun minus the FW. Rigid armor subtracts the body before the stun multiple.

 

Ex: A 20 body 80 stun attack would do 7 body 67 stun through the FW applied to the person's regular defenses.

 

A 20 body 80 stun attack vs 13 rigid armor would do 7 body 28 stun applied to the person's non-rigid defenses.

 

It's more than 163 pts of effect for 49 pts.

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn that a barrier of any kind blocked an equal amount of STUN as BODY. I'll have to re-read FREd when I get home.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by scholz

Is anyone seriously considering something like Rigid Armor?

 

I was really just talking about taking a some damage for haymakering something tough.

 

There are probably ways to buy this effect as a power (eg. Damage Shield). But that would seem odd for say a generic concrete wall. And yet if I hit a generic concrete wall with all my might, I am not likely to break it (although with 5 1/2 d6 of normal damage I could do it). I would be likely to hurt myself.

 

I was thinking more of a combat affect like the damage from movebys and movethroughs.

 

Maybe limiting it resistant defenses (most walls and such) and Haymakers is the way to go. I would probably give the 1/2 stun for hit locations (hand) or x2 (for head), even if I didn't use the locations normally to simulate that is unlikely you'd knock yourself out with a punch to a wall. But that you might actually do it with a head butt.

Sorry... got a little sidetracked.

 

Anyway, I don;t see why it would necessarily be limited to haymakers. If I punch a brick wall with the same force I apply to punching a person hard enough for it to hurt them, odds are I am going to hurt my hand on that wall - I'll just hurt it even worse if I'm insane enough to try to haymaker the wall. And in the comics, mortal men were forever hurting themselves by punching Superman with normal blows.

 

I like the idea, though, that if you do not beat the BODY of a resistant target, you're gonna take "feedback" as if you had failed to do knockback with a Move Through - but halved because this is all being applied to your hand..

[Gary]

Originally posted by Klytus

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn that a barrier of any kind blocked an equal amount of STUN as BODY. I'll have to re-read FREd when I get home.

 

I was going by the Rigid Armor exactly as Archer had described for his advantage.

[BNakagawa]

Even if it's a bit underpriced, I don't see the problem.

 

All it does it neuter the stun lottery. I don't have a problem with that.

 

As for hurting yourself hitting things, I like the golden age approach. Sfx also plays a key role here. I'm pretty sure any writeup of the Blob (from Xmen) would involve some sort of resistant defenses, but I doubt punching him in the gut would hurt your hand...

[dbsousa]

Cost	Power	END
36	Knuckle Breaking Body: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Damage Shield (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (90 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), Reciprocal (Only does as much damage as attacker) (-1/2), Only vs NCM Characters (-1/2)

Powers Cost: 36

 

This power only affects mooks (NCM) and only reflects his own attack back (reciprocal).

[Gary]

Originally posted by dbsousa

Cost	Power	END
36	Knuckle Breaking Body: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Damage Shield (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (90 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), Reciprocal (Only does as much damage as attacker) (-1/2), Only vs NCM Characters (-1/2)

Powers Cost: 36

 

This power only affects mooks (NCM) and only reflects his own attack back (reciprocal).

 

I don't think it should be a killing attack vs a mook who punches or otherwise does a normal attack.

[dbsousa]

Originally posted by Gary

I don't think it should be a killing attack vs a mook who punches or otherwise does a normal attack.

 

Actually, I agree. It should be an 8d6 HA instead, about the limit of a normal with a martial attack and no DC's.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Haymaker Variant Rule

 

Originally posted by scholz

Imagine this, Diamond Head, the invulnerable brick faces a pack of Hells Angels. One take a mighty swing at Diamond Head and breaks his fist. The others run.

How can we simulate this?

The fist breaking is some variation on Damage Shield, as other posters have suggested.

 

The other bikers fleeing is a Presence Attack.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Self-Inflicted Damage: This is a rule adapted from the original (pre-4th Ed.) Golden Age of Champions, with one modification from advice on the discussion boards (Thanks Alistair). I use it mostly for heroic level games, to simulate a normal person striking a hard, unyielding object with a part of their bodies and injuring themselves if they can't break it. Whenever you strike an object with resistant defenses (including characters), you roll your damage normally; if the Body damage you roll is higher than the resistant defense of the object, you take no damage. However, if you don't roll more Body than the resistant defense, you take the full damage yourself, modified by the multipliers for the Hit Location of the body part you used to strike with. If you're not using Hit Locations in your game, just use the original form of the rule, in which the hitter takes half damage as if he had performed a Move Through.

 

Obviously the chance of doing damage to yourself would be greater for a character performing a Haymaker; in my experience most characters can ignore the effects of SID unless their damaging capability is high compared to their defenses.

This is the method Ive used in the past as well. Not just for fists and the like, but also for weapons. It also somewhat helped stop people from digging thru brick walls with a dagger before Real Weapon was introduced -- a bad roll would dull the blade or even break it.

[Klytus]

I've seen Hard Skin written up like this:

 

Skin-Like-Steel: 4d6NND - not vs Resistant PD of 10 or better (40 points), Reduced Endurance 0 END and Persistent (+1), Does BODY (+1) Continuous (+1), Damage Shield (+1/2), (140 Active Points); Reciprocal (Only does as much damage as attacker) (-1/2), Only vs Physical Blows (-1/2). Real Cost = 70 points.