Hugh Neilson Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... As a long-time GM who includes both male and female NPCS, and a Player who plays male and female characters, I am going to assume I fall into the "exception" category (the one time out of ten, and the GM who understands people and can act). Otherwise your comments would strike me as both insulting and naive. Some men can, in fact, conceive of women as complete people, and not just caricatures. Amazing as that is to comprehend And some players can't play anyone, male, female or genderless, as anything but a caricature. I agree the issue is player by player, not universal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... As a long-time GM who includes both male and female NPCS, and a Player who plays male and female characters, I am going to assume I fall into the "exception" category (the one time out of ten, and the GM who understands people and can act). Otherwise your comments would strike me as both insulting and naive. Some men can, in fact, conceive of women as complete people, and not just caricatures. Amazing as that is to comprehend Agreed. For me it's a player issue. I've gamed with men that can't play women but generally they couldn't play anything at all. It was a player issue not some inability based on gender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmurie Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... And some players can't play anyone' date=' male, female or genderless, as anything but a caricature. I agree the issue is player by player, not universal.[/quote'] Yes and yes to all of the replies, but people often fall into the "Illusion of competence" on that issue. I've found that the most effective way to screen annoying players out of my games is to ban the bender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... To get things back on track Here's one of the oddest character concepts I've had submitted Celine Unidine Natalia Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmurie Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... To get things back on track Here's one of the oddest character concepts I've had submitted Celine Unidine Natalia Thomas Just odd? That's charitable of you. I'd be handing the player business cards of local therapists and counselors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... That's how I handle it. What I find disturbing is the number of genderbend-PCs that are lesbian nymphomaniacs. Played by overweight 40+ year olds! Same here! It gets worse when you start running into the genderbent lesbian nymphomaniacs who are also under 16 years old... EDIT: I mean that the character is under 16, not the player. Though if one counts emotional age... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... Speaking of gender-benders...I actually ran in a BESM game a character who was inspired by the aliens in "Left Hand of Darkness" and would shift genders in a 3 month cycle. Sadly, the game died before the rest of the party found out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weldun Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... Same here! It gets worse when you start running into the genderbent lesbian nymphomaniacs who are also under 16 years old... EDIT: I mean that the character is under 16, not the player. Though if one counts emotional age... Don't get me started on oversexed pre-teens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolerKing Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... Worst one I ever had even try to get past me was in a convention game, at Castlecon, about five years ago. I was running a GURPS Traveller game (forgive me... the system wasn't my idea!), set in a mercenary company. The whole concept was right out of something like Hammer's Slammers, crossed with the Dirty Dozen. At different cons, I would advance the timeline and run different adventures, but at this one series of cons, there was a specific player who would always show up. He only played in one of my games, but he tried to edge in with his 'personal' character even though the game outline stated that pregens would be provided. The player was in his forties, overweight (like I can talk!), and obviously out of breath, wearing REALLY tight, REALLY short shorts, a camouflage wifebeater about three sizes too small, and flip-flops. He always showed up to cons in this apparel; I assume it was an 'outfit' of sorts. Anyway, he brought the character to me, and I decided to pay him lip service by looking at it. Big mistake. She was a thirteen (!!!!) year old lesbian nympomaniac assassin who specialized in striptease and sexual means of eliminating her targets. He even had a special plastic character sheet made up, complete with pictures of the character (not pornographic, thank god). It took me about a minute to pick my jaw up off the floor before I had to blurt out, "Um, no... this... this won't fit. This is a mercenary company." He actually tried to defend it by saying that she could have been a paid whore working with the company... he even said, "Well, it happened in history." At that point, I just said no. He finally relented, and played a simple soldier, for about an hour, constantly whining about how his 'favored' character would have been through the adventure in no time flat, before he got bored and wandered off. I still shudder when I think about that character, and that player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmurie Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... Worst one I ever had even try to get past me was in a convention game, at Castlecon, about five years ago. I was running a GURPS Traveller game (forgive me... the system wasn't my idea!), set in a mercenary company. The whole concept was right out of something like Hammer's Slammers, crossed with the Dirty Dozen. At different cons, I would advance the timeline and run different adventures, but at this one series of cons, there was a specific player who would always show up. He only played in one of my games, but he tried to edge in with his 'personal' character even though the game outline stated that pregens would be provided. The player was in his forties, overweight (like I can talk!), and obviously out of breath, wearing REALLY tight, REALLY short shorts, a camouflage wifebeater about three sizes too small, and flip-flops. He always showed up to cons in this apparel; I assume it was an 'outfit' of sorts. Anyway, he brought the character to me, and I decided to pay him lip service by looking at it. Big mistake. She was a thirteen (!!!!) year old lesbian nympomaniac assassin who specialized in striptease and sexual means of eliminating her targets. He even had a special plastic character sheet made up, complete with pictures of the character (not pornographic, thank god). It took me about a minute to pick my jaw up off the floor before I had to blurt out, "Um, no... this... this won't fit. This is a mercenary company." He actually tried to defend it by saying that she could have been a paid whore working with the company... he even said, "Well, it happened in history." At that point, I just said no. He finally relented, and played a simple soldier, for about an hour, constantly whining about how his 'favored' character would have been through the adventure in no time flat, before he got bored and wandered off. I still shudder when I think about that character, and that player. You get a significant minority of players like that in any Midwestern con. At GenCon you get packs of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weapon Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... For the large part' date=' I agree. The actions described are ones that would probably get the characters @$$ booted to the curb. To many people think that their character should be given more slack simply because they are PCs. However, the statement that an evil PC, if played properly, isn't a hero is not entirely correct. A classic example I like to use of an evil character who could very well work well with a group to "heroic" ends is Kerr Avon, from Blake's 7. Utterly Self-serving and Condescending of Blake's ideals, he still saves the crew of the Liberator on several occasions. In fact, the character, despite becoming increasingly paranoid after the death of Blake, show signs of a heroism that culminate in the cynical embezzler ending the martyred hero. The problem is that too many players see the alignments as being far more restricitve than they really are. Altogether, the nine alignments simply catagorise nine broad groups of philisophical leaning. These days, you simply ask yourself some questions about who your character is (which is why I [b']still[/b] think that the Hero Builders Guidebook is the best supplement that WotC has ever released), and then place them accordingly. Avon's not evil, and in fact deep down he supports Blake's fight, he just doesn't think good can win. And let's face it he's right. However it was about the third episode that he first heroically saves Blake's life. His excuse was "reflex action it won't happen again". If he was really evil he would have killed Blake and the rest of the crew and found some nice place to retire to with the massive wealth from the Liberator's technology. . He's certainly smart enough to do that. Now sure he talks about doing that with Genna, but that's the point, he talks about it. If he was really contemptuous of other people's lives that's the last thing he'd do. If you're going to stab someone in the back don't talk about it, do it and crush anyone who get's in your way. Later when he finds out there's been a murder on another ship he stays on it as hostage despite knowing the murderer will kill anyone who gets close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... Avon's not evil' date=' and in fact deep down he supports Blake's fight, he just doesn't think good can win. And let's face it he's right. However it was about the third episode that he first heroically saves Blake's life. His excuse was "reflex action it won't happen again". If he was really evil he would have killed Blake and the rest of the crew and found some nice place to retire to with the massive wealth from the Liberator's technology. . [/quote'] Yeah, evil not-so-much. Jayne from Firefly is a better example of an evil character fitting into a PC group. But it helps that Jayne is stupid enough not to be all that dangerous and the other characters are kind of lowlives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weldun Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... Avon's not evil, and in fact deep down he supports Blake's fight, he just doesn't think good can win. And let's face it he's right. However it was about the third episode that he first heroically saves Blake's life. His excuse was "reflex action it won't happen again". If he was really evil he would have killed Blake and the rest of the crew and found some nice place to retire to with the massive wealth from the Liberator's technology. . He's certainly smart enough to do that. Now sure he talks about doing that with Genna, but that's the point, he talks about it. If he was really contemptuous of other people's lives that's the last thing he'd do. If you're going to stab someone in the back don't talk about it, do it and crush anyone who get's in your way. Later when he finds out there's been a murder on another ship he stays on it as hostage despite knowing the murderer will kill anyone who gets close. And once again we come back to people ascribing absolutes to an abstract concept. There are only nine alignments, but there are a LOT more variations within the population. For a character to have an evil alignment, they don't need to be all "Mwahahaha!". It comes down to motivation and methodology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... I know I'm going to start a riot, but for me, nine times out of ten the most disturbing thing I see in any game is the gender bender. The average male gamer attempting to play a female character. It always makes me cringe if I even notice that the character is female at all. Most male gamers have no more conception about what motivates women than he does about brain surgery. Critical Miss has covered my reservations about the situation pretty well. It's a funny and well written article called Men in Dresses NOTE: I think this is what distinguishes good GMs from bad GMs. The GM either plays it light on the female NPCs recognizing his inability to portray them correctly, or has some serious knowledge of the female psyche and an impressive acting talent to back it up. I was wondering if there are any women on his world. I mean is he saying that he is the only male Gamer capable of presenting a woman believably? Or is it all GMs have this innate gift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... Don't get me started on oversexed pre-teens! Why? Once you pop, you can't stop? *rimshot* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... You get a significant minority of players like that in any Midwestern con. At GenCon you get packs of them. Dude, I'm heavy but I hardly qualify as a pack - er, uhm yeah! I hate those guys! *does the fat ninja shuffle stage left* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... And once again we come back to people ascribing absolutes to an abstract concept. There are only nine alignments' date=' but there are a [b']LOT[/b] more variations within the population. For a character to have an evil alignment, they don't need to be all "Mwahahaha!". It comes down to motivation and methodology. This comes down, in my books, to "nice-ifying" evil so it's palatable for a player character. I like the definitions of: - Good - places the welfare of others above their own. Real world example - a Good person will be happy for the other guy who gets the promotion, and will even highlight why he might be better for the job. That's not to say he won't want the promotion himself, nor that he will fail to point out the reasons he may be better for the job. - Neutral - places his own welfare above others. Will lobby heavily for the promotion even if he knows the other guy is more deserving; is likely not above reminding the boss about the other guy's failings (or even rumoured but untrue failings) in the hopes of getting the promotion. - Evil - places his own welfare above others with negligible restraint or limits. Will use the pictures from that vegas trip to balckmail his way into the promotion. If he had the connections, and the dollars at stake are enough, would hire a hit man to remove the rival. His goals are all-important. Now, by the above definitions, the vast majority of the population would be Neutral (although clearly there will be shades of neutrality leaning closer to one edge or the other). But that's probably true - humans tend to a lawful neutrality. We have a genetic predisposition to want to survive and advance ourselves which is difficult to overcome. But some theorists suggest altruism is also built into our genetics - if my actions save two siblings or 8 cousins, this has the effect of passing on "my" DNA, just as effectively as surviving myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corven_Ren Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... One of the characters I ever gm'd was way back in AD&D 2nd edition right after the Complete Humanoid Handbook came out. I had a bunch of 1st time players and one of them scanned through the books requested to play a minotaur. I though nothing of it and helped all the players roll up their characters. It wasn't until he named the character til I got the disturbing image. here is this 9' tall 450lb minotaur and he names him...Sexual Chocolate. Well I found it disturbing anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestlinggeek Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... This one wasn't disturbing to me so much as irritating. In a Shadowrun game run by another GM, there was an NPC Troll. And his streetname was Trog. For those of you who have never played Shadowrun, Trog is a racial slur against Orcs and Trolls which is supposed to be on-par with "the N-word." It always irked me that the character would call himself that, and allow others (especially Humans and Elves) to do so as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... This one wasn't disturbing to me so much as irritating. In a Shadowrun game run by another GM' date=' there was an NPC Troll. And his streetname was Trog. For those of you who have never played Shadowrun, Trog is a racial slur against Orcs and Trolls which is supposed to be on-par with "the N-word." It always irked me that the character would call himself that, and allow others (especially Humans and Elves) to do so as well.[/quote'] Well, it's only bad when the elves call him that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garou Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... This one wasn't disturbing to me so much as irritating. In a Shadowrun game run by another GM' date=' there was an NPC Troll. And his streetname was Trog. For those of you who have never played Shadowrun, Trog is a racial slur against Orcs and Trolls which is supposed to be on-par with "the N-word." It always irked me that the character would call himself that, and allow others (especially Humans and Elves) to do so as well.[/quote'] They call me "Mister Trog." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... This one wasn't disturbing to me so much as irritating. In a Shadowrun game run by another GM' date=' there was an NPC Troll. And his streetname was Trog. For those of you who have never played Shadowrun, Trog is a racial slur against Orcs and Trolls which is supposed to be on-par with "the N-word." It always irked me that the character would call himself that, and allow others (especially Humans and Elves) to do so as well.[/quote'] I see your point and I agree on some levels but it's not entirely unprecedented in the real world, like some "rap names" for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... I see your point and I agree on some levels but it's not entirely unprecedented in the real world' date=' like some "rap names" for instance.[/quote'] Shadowrun Troll rappers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... Shadowrun Troll rappers? There's a character concept in there somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Re: Disturbing Character premises... There's a character concept in there somewhere. For someone else. I wouldn't know how to do troll rap. I imagine it'd sound like Andre the Giant rapping his way through "Smack my B*tch Up!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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