6th Edition Hero System

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

sigh. no. just no.

 

Proper use of the Simulated Sense Rule will mitigate almost all issues you might have or think you have.

 

Detect itself is a generic all options Perception. Why - because it is unattached to any of the five basic senses.

 

Our sense of sight, touch, and smell are stopped by barriers.

Our sense of hearing is not (reduced maybe, but not stopped).

The Radio group is not (I assume you can get radio reception in a building? I can)

The Hero Mental sense is not (or did you need to buy N-Ray for Mind Scan too?)

And then there's the Mystic Sense Group - this could also disregard intervening barriers.

(Getting across/through/around the barrier to the object - is another thing completely).

 

If you need to build a Detect based on the Hearing Group do you suddenly need to rework your proposed Detect to use it for conversations on the other side of a door?

 

What about Infra-red perception? I know for a fact that it can be used to detect heat sources through barriers by default in the real world.

 

 

Spatial Awareness is no more than a Generic Mechanic. It needs a Special Effect to go with it. What that Special Effect is will determine if it should be left in the default state, Limited, or placed in an existing Sense Group using the Simulated Sense Rules.

 

Perhaps Spatial Awareness is defined as "my nerve endings are so sensitive I can feel objects around a room based on air currents" - Spatial Awareness; Touch Group - now it is blocked by walls.

 

Or - Spatial Awareness is "my minds third eye opening to the world around me" - Spatial Awareness; Mystic Group - possibly left as the default condition.

 

 

The Hero System should always be about creating options - not restricting them.

So it's clear, I don't disagree with your last statement at all, but the options should be mechanical, not SFX-inflected/required.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

From the Champions mailing list:

 

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:41:10 EDT
From: (Steve's e-mail address redacted)
Subject: Fifth Edition

For those of you keeping score at home, I thought you'd like to know
that, after over a year of work, I've finally turned in the completed 5th
Edition HERO System manuscript to Hero Games as of today. Time for editing
and layout....

Steve Long

There were variations/other manuscripts as well, but I don't recall if those were edited versions of Steve's or what.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

There were variations/other manuscripts as well' date=' but I don't recall if those were edited versions of Steve's or what.[/quote']

 

The 'What would you like to see in 5th edition Hero?' questionnaire had a copyright date of 1998 on it (I found it via http://web.archive.org but don't remember exactly when) so it couldn't have been any sooner than that. I think you're thinking of the interminable vaporware "It's at the printer now! It should be done by November/Gen Con/Hell freezing over!" announcements that kept coming out.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

The 'What would you like to see in 5th edition Hero?' questionnaire had a copyright date of 1998 on it (I found it via http://web.archive.org but don't remember exactly when) so it couldn't have been any sooner than that. I think you're thinking of the interminable vaporware "It's at the printer now! It should be done by November/Gen Con/Hell freezing over!" announcements that kept coming out.

No, there were alternate versions of the manuscript itself that existed. I just don't recall what the differences among those were, there were 2 or 3 (at least one version was significantly different, I think it may have been a Peterson-edited version).

[CTaylor]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'd add a couple of powers and change how Transformation attack works.

 

The main change would be the addition of CURSE as a power, a sort of reverse Aid, where you give people negative abilities - disadvantages usually - with a limited duration. Stuff like unluck Dice, etc.

 

Another change would be the addition of another aid-like power called GRANT that gives powers the character doesn't have. The cost structure and mechanic would be the same as Aid, but it would not allow the adjustment power advantages to affect more than one power at a time. If you look at the reasons people reject the ability to use Aid to give powers, the concerns are ALWAYS that it is too powerful because of these advantages. Get rid of them, get rid of the problem.

 

The transform change would look like this:

 

Adding wings to someone and turning them into a salt shaker have the same cost, for widly different potency. Further, very trivial effects, such as turning someone's eyes blue instead of brown cost as much as knocking them out instantly, which seems a bit excessive. Thus, a new system would be useful, one with an additional level of granularity.

 

Cosmetic Transformation: 3 points per D6

 

Examples: Turn someone's eyes green, their hair curly, change a pattern on a shirt, make money cleaner, make the air smell nicer

 

Minor Transformation: 5 points per D6

 

A simple change that does not alter substance; Examples: Turn someone's skin brown, their hair bald, change the design of a shirt, make change from money, make the air free of poisons

 

Major Transformation: 10 points per D6

 

A significant change that does not greatly alter basic substance; Examples: Turn someone's skin transparent, their hair into celery, change a shirt into a leather trenchcoat, turn money into equal value of gold, make air into a noxious gas

 

Total Transformation: 15 points per D6

 

A complete change of any kind; Examples: Turn someone into an ashtray, change a shirt into a dragon, make money into ten filled coffee cups, make air into an equal volume of liquid acid. This would allow the character to change someone's soul, mind, and body all at once.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

The main change would be the addition of CURSE as a power' date=' a sort of reverse Aid, where you give people negative abilities - disadvantages usually - with a limited duration. Stuff like unluck Dice, etc.[/quote']

 

I like this in concept. It would need to be vetted to set a realistic cost, but I think it's a good construct.

 

Another change would be the addition of another aid-like power called GRANT that gives powers the character doesn't have. The cost structure and mechanic would be the same as Aid' date=' but it would not allow the adjustment power advantages to affect more than one power at a time. If you look at the reasons people reject the ability to use Aid to give powers, the concerns are ALWAYS that it is too powerful because of these advantages. Get rid of them, get rid of the problem.[/quote']

 

Again, I think this type of ability is a reasonable one.

 

The transform change would look like this:

 

Adding wings to someone and turning them into a salt shaker have the same cost, for widly different potency. Further, very trivial effects, such as turning someone's eyes blue instead of brown cost as much as knocking them out instantly, which seems a bit excessive. Thus, a new system would be useful, one with an additional level of granularity.

 

Current Transform is needed to impose curses and grant abiluties. adding those abilities as separate powers would go a long way to reducing the things Transform gets used for. As an example, instead of Transform - Blind Person, the Curse power would be used to add Blindness. It could also solve a recurring nuisance ability - suffocation. Curse could add "Cannot breathe air", rendering the target incapable of breathing.

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Hmmm... I will probably be somewhat of a nay sayer here. I have been a Herophile since the very first publication (I even got Steve Petersons autograph on some convention Teen Titans characters). I feel that if any of the changes BWDemon were to be implemented' date=' it would no longer be Hero but rather a spin off and I would be forced to remain with 5th Ed. This type of radical change to a basic core methodology is one of the reasons I quit playing D&D. When they started adding prestige this and skill point that the system became Non-D&D. Does D20 work? Sure it does but it's not the D&D that I grew to know and love. Would changing the game system work for Hero type games? Yes, but then it woud no longer be Hero. As for tweaking... I don't beleive you can create a system that would not require some sort of tweaking or house rules or explanations. As soon as you allow a new player to pick up the game and open the book, there will be questions, or suggestions as to how they might want to improve your new simple core system. So my vote... Keep the core the way it is.[/quote']

 

I'll second this. My other favorite system has to Rolemaster (the popular version known as Rolemaster2, or RM2), and they created a "new" version called RMSS (RoleMaster Standard System) and a revised version later called RMFRP (RoleMaster Fantasy RolePlaying). The system was "streamlined" as some are here suggesting, and while I did buy it, I never played it. I always stuck with RM2. ICE has finally realized this and now 10 years later created a RMClassic, basically a reprint of RM2, and they're getting a lot of fanbase back.

 

If HERO did the same thing, I'd feel quite rejected and simply stick with HERO5. There is simply *no* better system for Superhero RPGing. Some of the heroic gaming could maybe use some tweaks, but the core system is just great. I *love* how DEX & SPD are used to make combat/initiative smooth and fast. That and many other things.

 

The only suggestion I'd make is what HERO4 did, separate core rules into just rule books, then have add-on genre books.

 

-shnar

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

• The return of Seeker to the front covers. Always used to be able to judge whether a book was any good or not by whether or not Seeker was on the cover getting his butt kicked; the absence of this (virtually infallible) criteria makes new purchases highly speculative. I'm not going to be hard line on this one, though - I'd accept any Australian ninja in Seeker's place.

 

That is awesome! I gotta admit, I love my Blue 4th Ed hardbound book with Perez's Seeker leaping at.. um.. can't remember the Doom-wannabe's name.

 

• Simplifying the combat and skill systems. I like "always roll high" myself (if you can be bothered search for my recent thread on my work in that area). More granularity in the skill system and characteristics would possibly be an option as well (so that there is a meaningful difference between 19 DEX and 20 DEX).

 

The real DEX comparison is between 20 and 21. 19 still gives you a 6 OCV, but 20 gives you a 7. 21 Gives you a 7 as well, and doesn't give you any real boost to SPD (unless you're doing the linear SPD cost, you'd save 1pt) or any other significant advantages, and in a Heroic campaign, it costs you 6 pts instead of 3, so why would anyone ever want a 21DEX? I've done it though with some of my chars. It's the "initiative" bonus in combat, the higher DEX goes first, and since everyone else is capping at 20, your tiny extra 21 makes you just that much more quicker than everyone else, you really do have lightning reflexes

 

• Increasing the cost of STR, either directly (1.5 or 2 points per) or indirectly (by stripping it from some of the figured characteristic calculations). Possibly do the same for CON.

 

Can't do this, since it affects the 5pts = 1die rule. And I don't see how the figured characteristics are unbalancing here.

 

• Do something about STUN lotto, at least with an optional rule.

 

I don't understand this one. I assume you're talking about Killing Attacks. I *love* how Killing Attacks really are different from normal attacks and have the completely random Stun affect. To me, it's a great representation of RL. When you are bludgeoned, you feel it and get stunned all the time. When you have a bullet go through you, sometimes you feel it a lot, sometimes it goes right through and it's not felt at all but you still took vital damage.

 

I don't get people's complaints about this one nor about the SPD Chart. That's a defining GREAT aspect of HERO. SPD removes the clunky initiative crap you see in other systems and it's incredibly easy to you. Every character sheet I've ever seen has the 12 segments listed in a corner somewhere with the player's segments circled. When combat starts, GM just says, "Ok, phase 1 anyone move? k, 2 anyone? k 3, Anyone?" etc. And then DEX comparisons to see who moves first. Easy as pie and has such a tactical play to everything (as opposed to the Everyone Moves Every Time feel of most other systems).

 

-shnar

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

In this thread, dare I say sixthed?!

 

 

If it hasn't been said yet (hard to tell, this thread is so huge):

 

Seventhed!

 

-shnar

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

That is awesome! I gotta admit, I love my Blue 4th Ed hardbound book with Perez's Seeker leaping at.. um.. can't remember the Doom-wannabe's name.

 

 

 

The real DEX comparison is between 20 and 21. 19 still gives you a 6 OCV, but 20 gives you a 7. 21 Gives you a 7 as well, and doesn't give you any real boost to SPD (unless you're doing the linear SPD cost, you'd save 1pt) or any other significant advantages, and in a Heroic campaign, it costs you 6 pts instead of 3, so why would anyone ever want a 21DEX? I've done it though with some of my chars. It's the "initiative" bonus in combat, the higher DEX goes first, and since everyone else is capping at 20, your tiny extra 21 makes you just that much more quicker than everyone else, you really do have lightning reflexes

 

 

 

Can't do this, since it affects the 5pts = 1die rule. And I don't see how the figured characteristics are unbalancing here.

 

 

 

I don't understand this one. I assume you're talking about Killing Attacks. I *love* how Killing Attacks really are different from normal attacks and have the completely random Stun affect. To me, it's a great representation of RL. When you are bludgeoned, you feel it and get stunned all the time. When you have a bullet go through you, sometimes you feel it a lot, sometimes it goes right through and it's not felt at all but you still took vital damage.

 

I don't get people's complaints about this one nor about the SPD Chart. That's a defining GREAT aspect of HERO. SPD removes the clunky initiative crap you see in other systems and it's incredibly easy to you. Every character sheet I've ever seen has the 12 segments listed in a corner somewhere with the player's segments circled. When combat starts, GM just says, "Ok, phase 1 anyone move? k, 2 anyone? k 3, Anyone?" etc. And then DEX comparisons to see who moves first. Easy as pie and has such a tactical play to everything (as opposed to the Everyone Moves Every Time feel of most other systems).

 

-shnar

Killing Attacks can be demonstrably more effective for the same price in inflicting STUN damage, making them a relatively good deal, while even at that still not having the necessary points to overcome typical DEF of any significant opposition - in (very) short. If you do a search on Killing Attacks especially that Gary (that's the full poster name) has written you'll come across threads with considerable discussion that make a clear case for where the "STUN lottery" is in fact an issue in its increased utility for the same price (while even at that not actually generally doing any more BOD damage, despite the name), depending a bit on power level of the game (and to a degree genre). I don't think this thread should be perverted into a more detailed examination, I am just raising these so you can research more on the boards and see the issues. I am not suggesting that even acknowledging the issues necessitates a particular conclusion, I am simply pointing out that I think there is a clearly demonstrable issue and I believe you'll find it fairly quickly (half an hour?) through some board searches as it's been exhaustively discussed.

 

As to figured chars and the impact of STR, it's basically a costing/balance issue, a strong incentive is in place for PCs to have a decent STR stat. You can argue this a number of ways, it might be considered a good thing from a perspective of how much fictional action-adventure is in essentially mandating that you buy up STR to get other goodies or you suffer a bit in this regard, or you can argue from a balance perspective it gives STR-based characters stronger rewards than those who do not choose to be. Again, considerable discussions on the board can yield all sorts of analysis (as well as naysaying flamey stuff) on this topic.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

The main change would be the addition of CURSE as a power' date=' a sort of reverse Aid, where you give people negative abilities - disadvantages usually - with a limited duration. Stuff like unluck Dice, etc.[/quote']

I've been doing this for years. I just call it "Drain", and it works like any other Drain, except it adds points of Disadvantage rather than taking away points of Power. I've mentioned this many times of these boards. Do a search on "Disadvantages as Negative Powers." It works the other way, too: using Aid to temporarily remove Disads, intstead of temporarily adding to powers.

 

Another change would be the addition of another aid-like power called GRANT that gives powers the character doesn't have. The cost structure and mechanic would be the same as Aid, but it would not allow the adjustment power advantages to affect more than one power at a time. If you look at the reasons people reject the ability to use Aid to give powers, the concerns are ALWAYS that it is too powerful because of these advantages. Get rid of them, get rid of the problem.

I've always allowed this as well. Why should the first few points of a power be more restricted than the last few points of a power? The first die of your EB costs the same as the last, so why should you not be allowed to "Aid from zero"? And the "more than one power at a time" advantages are just as broken either way, IMO. They work somewhat OK as-is, but I think they are where the main problems lie with Adjustment Powers. I'd be in favor of increasing the cost of the "multiple powers at the same time" advantages.

 

The transform change would look like this:

....

This is another area where I've modified the rules for my campaigns. One of the defining principles of HERO is that you pay for the game-mechanical effect, not the special effect. Therefore I change the Transform categories as follows:

 

Cosmetic - Free/Handwave based on another power being used. If it doesn't have any game impact, it shouldn't cost points. Get rid of this level entirely. If it really matters, call it a flat 5 points (not 5 per d6, just 5 total), to be able to change the color of someone's hair.

 

Minor - 5/d6 minor inconveniences, such as the loss of a non-targeting sense, a minor impairment, or something that makes combat a tad more difficult.

 

Major - 10/d6 a serious setback, such as blindness, loss of the ability to walk/run, a major difficulty, but not rendering the target completely helpless

 

Incapacitating - 15/d6 something that completely takes the target out of the fight: turning to stone, turning into a small animal, total paralysis, etc.

 

And of course these levels can be used for positive effects as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I don't understand this one. I assume you're talking about Killing Attacks. I *love* how Killing Attacks really are different from normal attacks and have the completely random Stun affect. To me' date=' it's a great representation of RL. When you are bludgeoned, you feel it and get stunned all the time. When you have a bullet go through you, sometimes you feel it a lot, sometimes it goes right through and it's not felt at all but you still took vital damage. [/quote']

 

Some people trip and fall to the ground, hit their heads and die. Others fall out of aircraft thousands of feet and survive. Isn't that like a bludgeon?

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

No, that's Unluck and Luck respectively

 

-shnar

[Catseye]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

A reset.

 

Which is to say, a total rethink of the system from ground up without worries of backwards compatibility.

 

I love HERO, but it has really grown unwieldy over time as it has evolved to be more and more functional. I think its time to take the lessons learned, take a serious look at all the odd bits, and come up with a new true core system that everything else can be built up from.

 

Some personal annoyances include:

 

+ Powers that seem like they should be related, but don't work out numbers wise if you try. For instance, it seems like armor aught to be the same as a 0 END forcefield, and the same as PD or ED, but it doesn't quite reduce this way.

 

+ Arbitrary combat maneuvers. I loved the way maneuvers worked in the original rules where they were regularized into ocv effect, dcv effect and damage and how that all mapped into the martial arts system. Now we have things like "blazing away" which, as near as I can see, come from nowhere in the base rules but are just tacked on arbitrarily.

 

+ Too many powers in general. It seems to me a lot of the power list today could be reduced to a base set of effects-on-character or effects-on-environment. There's nothing wrong with a big pre-built power set for doing things like making superheroes but in my ideal system that would be a second genre specific layer that was built from the core system.

[Hierax]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Yeah, Do that thing that they didn't do when they had a chance for 4th ed., break it down to the real basics concepts and take the "reasoning from effect" a clean break from the weird hybrid of effects and sfx we have now:

 

- Attack

 

- Defend

 

- Move

 

- Sense

 

- etc...

 

(anyone remember where was it mentioned again?)

 

Oh yeah, get rid of the lingering Champions bias, and allow for more granularity for Heroic genres.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

A reset.

 

Which is to say, a total rethink of the system from ground up without worries of backwards compatibility.

 

Just chiming in, that this is the complete opposite of what I would like to see. I want a minor revision, cleaning up some stuff, but not much else. I don't want much of the system changed - I would like to see good universal benchmarks across games (probably playing with, or eliminated NCM) so there is not a disconnect between heroic and superheroic, and have tanks that work in a wwII game, and also in a superhero game, fitting to each genre, with one writeup.

[Catseye]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Just chiming in' date=' that this is the complete opposite of what I would like to see. I want a minor revision, cleaning up some stuff, but not much else..[/quote']

 

Granted my head is in the software industry but...

 

I'd call this "Version 5.3" or something like that.

 

To me a step in major revision number means a major change.

 

But frankly, you could call the new system "Atomic Fred 1.0" for all I really care. I just think its past time to do it.

[Hierax]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Cleanup/minor revision would be a 5.5 kind of thing, I'm just saying if one was to bother going to a full 6th edition then take the opportunity to overhaul things.

 

If not, 5th ed still has as much life in it as one wants and a streamlining without major changes would be good too.

 

Two different things in my mind.

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Granted my head is in the software industry but...

 

I'd call this "Version 5.3" or something like that.

 

To me a step in major revision number means a major change.

 

Or version 1.6, since I don't really think any of the versions of the rules have been too terribly different than the previous one.

 

But frankly' date=' you could call the new system "Atomic Fred 1.0" for all I really care. I just think its past time to do it. [/quote']

 

I know, we could call it Fuzion...

 

[Hierax]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Who knows when a new edition could come out? D&D 4e is coming out before a lot of people expected

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Who knows when a new edition could come out? D&D 4e is coming out before a lot of people expected

 

People that weren't paying attention to comments and publication schedules.

 

Steve said at one point not before 2010 or 2011 and that was years ago. Personally I think 5th has a lot of life left in her.

[Catseye]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Or version 1.6, since I don't really think any of the versions of the rules have been too terribly different than the previous one.

 

 

 

I know, we could call it Fuzion...

 

 

Well... that wasnt Fuzion. Fuzion was an attempt to cross Hero with another system and at the same time slim it out a bit.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Who knows when a new edition could come out? D&D 4e is coming out before a lot of people expected

People weren't staying informed with industry buzz, because the announcement this year coincide perfectly with what many people I know were predicting at last GenCon.

 

TB

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

People weren't staying informed with industry buzz, because the announcement this year coincide perfectly with what many people I know were predicting at last GenCon.

 

TB

 

Heck, I don't even follow D&D and I was expecting this...

[Gadodel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

. Personally I think 5th has a lot of life left in her.

I totally agree.

 

I could see a book called 'HERO System Options' wherein folks could be given advice on how to make things using existing rules. However, I think the online community already does a lot of that already-not sure if puting it in book form would be necessary. Nice, yes; but necessary? Dunno.