6th Edition Hero System

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I think 5ER is a good balance. If I were to remove anything it would be the Genre By Genre guide, but only to expand it into a full fledged book of how to cross genres.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

But that means an even bigger book. Shrinking it probably means cutting example uses of the mechanics, making it even less user-friendly. It may be what I would prefer, but is it Hero's best marketting approach?

 

I can see that, but I remember Steve saying (IIRC on one of the polls for the big book that year), don't worry about what is best for Hero games, worry about what you want.

 

So I do.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I think 5ER is a good balance. If I were to remove anything it would be the Genre By Genre guide' date=' but only to expand it into a full fledged book of how to cross genres.[/quote']

 

I agree.

 

Although I will be interested (once I have both books) how well the "combat handbook + character creation handbook" runs - I plan to rely on those two - and I am curious how often I end up having to go back to 5ER.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I agree.

 

Although I will be interested (once I have both books) how well the "combat handbook + character creation handbook" runs - I plan to rely on those two - and I am curious how often I end up having to go back to 5ER.

 

Only "Effects Of The Environment" are missing between the two.

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

As the cover says "Toolkit" - you are talking about taking the tools and spreading them over multiple books. That makes the entire toolkit concept worthless.

But I'm not, I'm saying do both. Have one massive toolkit tome that has all the rules in their nitty gritty, and then have 10 lighter books that allow other gamers to pick and choose their options as need be...

 

Why can't we have both? Why can't we just get along?

 

-shnar

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

We have both now.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

But I'm not, I'm saying do both. Have one massive toolkit tome that has all the rules in their nitty gritty, and then have 10 lighter books that allow other gamers to pick and choose their options as need be...

 

Why can't we have both? Why can't we just get along?

 

Publishing costs. This approach requires Hero publish the same information in two different formats, reducing the print runs on each.

 

As well, those 10 lighter books need to consist solely of information in the Tome, otherwise buyers of the Tome must also buy the lighter books to get all the details. What would you envision each lighter book containing?

[jelloflechette]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'm pretty late to this discussion. I've read through most of the posts, but I mainly want to comment on the "centralized universal book vs multiple themed" books debate that has been going on more recently. I want to first point out that I whole-heartedly agree with ghost-angel's stance on this issue.

 

The way I see it is this. The "add-on" or "plug-in" model that shnar is proposing (similar to GURPS, Fuzion, 40k and its army codices, etc) makes it so that the core system is handicapped and essentially pointless. To have the rules for whatever genre or situation you end up HAVING to buy the plug in.

 

This is why I always believed the GURPS title is a lie: it is neither "generic" or "universal". The core book comes with a small list of spells and equipment. What if I want to use a different spell or item? I have to buy the "GURPS blah blah" sourcebook. So, there really is no "GURPS System"; there's only an empty framework where actual game material gets placed, in the form of source books.

 

On the other hand, the hero system is a fully stand-alone, truly universal, simulation system. The core rules already allow you to simulate whatever you want to do. Any extra books are guidelines and tips on how to tune the core system to a particular end.

 

Hero is an FPGA that I can program to do what I want; other systems are ASICs, forcing me to get yet another chip for each new thing I want to do.

 

Beyond that issue, I also wanted to state my concern on a 6th edition. The jump from 4th to 5th was valid, I guess. There was a significant amount of clarification and added examples, which is good. The rules tweaks are arguable, but nothing too drastic. The new art is for the most part very nice too. But to me, the jump from 4th to 5th was more of a "Hero Lives Once More" announcement, and to flush the sour taste of Fuzion from everyone's mouths. That alone makes it have value. But I honestly cannot thing of what would justify a 6th edition. The system was pretty much good to go in 4th.

 

TSR sold out long before they were bought out. GW also sold out a while ago. I have more confidence in Hero, since Steve Long seems to actually care about the game system, but I have to say it any way: please don't sell out. I hate planned obsolescence. I do not want to play a system that requires 3+ handbooks just to have the rules. I do not want to play a system that requires any amount of source books to have the rules. I do not want to play a system that constantly overwrites the rules in monthly magazines. I do not want to play a system that has an online subscription component *shudders*.

 

Sourcebooks that present innovative ideas on how to use the core rules are great. Unique settings would be great too. And like Ghost Angel stated earlier, each setting doesn't have to be compatible with every other one, or fit into some overarching timeline. Just don't tell me I need to buy additional books to get the rules.

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I think people are missing the gist of what I propose. HERO 5 is so damn big, that very few newcomers are jumping on board. It's just too much of a beast to tackle. 'Course, I don't have any evidence except what I see at my local gaming stores. None of them even carry it anymore since they said no one wanted to buy such a big, expensive book. The only people I know who want to play are those in my generation (30's) that started way back in the 80s and still appreciate the game for its greatness. I don't care about books/formats/info, I care about new players, which is what will keep HERO alive.

 

Breaking the beast that is FRed into smaller components will IMHO help bring new players to the fold. HOW you accomplish that, I don't really care. If it's the "splat" books, fine. If it's a "box" set a la 80s games that has 3 or 4 rulebooks (chargen, combat, vehicles, etc), fine. One of the reasons I suggested the "splat" books is it's how it got a lot of *us* into HERO, and since we've grown with it, we now like the big bulky tome that has all the rules in it (well most of us, I still don't like such a massive manual and often wonder why it's even needed, when I was playing just fine with the 3rd edition, which is much, much smaller).

 

Maybe rather then splat-books, we do something similar to what ICE is doing with Rolemaster Express, the whole Sidekick edition. Maybe HERO6 effectively is just SideKick with some additional "add-on" books that allows players to slowly add rules to their SideKick that eventually makes them look more and more like the full HERO5...

 

-shnar

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I think people are missing the gist of what I propose. HERO 5 is so damn big' date=' that very few newcomers are jumping on board. It's just too much of a beast to tackle. 'Course, I don't have any evidence except what I see at my local gaming stores. None of them even carry it anymore since they said no one wanted to buy such a big, expensive book. The only people I know who want to play are those in my generation (30's) that started way back in the 80s and still appreciate the game for its greatness. I don't care about books/formats/info, I care about new players, which is what will keep HERO alive.[/quote']

 

Considering Hero Games has to annually reprint the core rules book I'm going to say you have either an anomaly at that LGS, or they're just telling you that as an excuse for whatever reason.

 

It can not possibly be the same set of gamers buying the core rules over and over and over. Even at relatively small print runs.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Beyond that issue' date=' I also wanted to state my concern on a 6th edition. The jump from 4th to 5th was valid, I guess. There was a significant amount of clarification and added examples, which is good. The rules tweaks are arguable, but nothing too drastic. The new art is for the most part very nice too. But to me, the jump from 4th to 5th was more of a "Hero Lives Once More" announcement, and to flush the sour taste of Fuzion from everyone's mouths. That alone makes it have value. But I honestly cannot thing of what would justify a 6th edition. The system was pretty much good to go in 4th. [/quote']

 

Take note that this discussion is completely theoretical on the part of all posters involved. The current owners aren't even going to think of putting together another system for 4-5 years (giving 5E a good ten year run in print).

 

I wouldn't expect a 6E to come into play until a new set of owners has taken up the mantle.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I strongly believe based on comments that Steve and Darren do intend to do a 6th edition but there's no timetable and I do expect it will be some number of years before they do so (and that they intend to be the owners for some number of years).

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I think people are missing the gist of what I propose. HERO 5 is so damn big, that very few newcomers are jumping on board. It's just too much of a beast to tackle. 'Course, I don't have any evidence except what I see at my local gaming stores. None of them even carry it anymore since they said no one wanted to buy such a big, expensive book. The only people I know who want to play are those in my generation (30's) that started way back in the 80s and still appreciate the game for its greatness. I don't care about books/formats/info, I care about new players, which is what will keep HERO alive.

 

Breaking the beast that is FRed into smaller components will IMHO help bring new players to the fold. HOW you accomplish that, I don't really care. If it's the "splat" books, fine. If it's a "box" set a la 80s games that has 3 or 4 rulebooks (chargen, combat, vehicles, etc), fine. One of the reasons I suggested the "splat" books is it's how it got a lot of *us* into HERO, and since we've grown with it, we now like the big bulky tome that has all the rules in it (well most of us, I still don't like such a massive manual and often wonder why it's even needed, when I was playing just fine with the 3rd edition, which is much, much smaller).

 

Maybe rather then splat-books, we do something similar to what ICE is doing with Rolemaster Express, the whole Sidekick edition. Maybe HERO6 effectively is just SideKick with some additional "add-on" books that allows players to slowly add rules to their SideKick that eventually makes them look more and more like the full HERO5...

 

-shnar

I would like to differentiate my view from yours (for clarity).

 

I think that it's simply unwieldy in rules complexity as evidenced by where I see too many LONG-time HEROites now making mistakes, not able to extrapolate from the basic core rules to the various nuances and exceptions now embedded in the system. In short - you can look up any of my posts from 2006 probably for more on this.

 

Also, on a non-rules-specific note, I would like to see complete and playable games built using the HERO core. I think this would be very useful both in its own right and to demonstrate how HERO can be used to build games, and, simply, fun.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Here's what I'd like to see for 6th edition: I'd like to see two "core" books; one Hero Basic and one Hero Universal. Hero Universal would take the system in the direction it's been going from 4th through 5th, one system that can do everything. Hero Basic would take the "heart" of Hero and distill it into a much smaller set of core rules; the idea behind Hero Basic is that one doesn't need to take all of the heavy core to use it for other games. Hero Universal would be the equivalent of 5er, while Hero Basic would be the equivalent of the common elements of the first generation, pre-4th edition Hero System games. Support by Hero Games would focus primarily on Hero Universal, but Hero Basic would be available for specialized games as well as licensing by other companies. They could both be in one ginormous book, or separated out into two.

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I strongly believe based on comments that Steve and Darren do intend to do a 6th edition but there's no timetable and I do expect it will be some number of years before they do so (and that they intend to be the owners for some number of years).

 

Hmm. I would've said based on conversations I've had with both that they have no current plans for a 6th edition, although they would not be opposed to it. But they'd have to come up with some pretty compelling reasons to do it. I suppose that just goes to show that everyone interprets conversations through their own filters. Me included.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Beyond that issue' date=' I also wanted to state my concern on a 6th edition. The jump from 4th to 5th was valid, I guess. There was a significant amount of clarification and added examples, which is good. The rules tweaks are arguable, but nothing too drastic. The new art is for the most part very nice too. But to me, the jump from 4th to 5th was more of a "Hero Lives Once More" announcement, and to flush the sour taste of Fuzion from everyone's mouths. That alone makes it have value. But I honestly cannot thing of what would justify a 6th edition. The system was pretty much good to go in 4th.[/quote']

I think this sums it up nicely. There is absolutely no need for a 6th edition. And frankly, I don't think there ever will be. The RPG industry has convinced itself that all games are perpetually broken and have to be revised and reworked with major rules changes every few years. They can never get the game "right." Well, I think the HERO System is so right that no further editions are needed - ever! A minor tweak here and there might be useful, but that can be covered by a 4-page booklet (perhaps downloadable for free), put out maybe once every two years at most. A new "edition" would only ever consist of incorporating these minor rules changes/additions and fixing errata, possibly with new examples/explainations/clarifications, and maybe an improved organization of the rules (and new art). But the *system* itself should remain 99% the same - a fancy new book (in color!) would be completely compatible with 5th Edition rules.

 

The primary focus of HERO should be putting out new support books. That's what allows the system to make forward progress, not reprinting the same genre/setting/ultimate books over and over again for each new edition. Compare that to the current state of deendee: a new edition means a new version of each of their setting books (at least the ones that they'll continue to support), and all new splat books for all the redone stuff they did last time. HERO should leave all its rules and supplimental material the way it is so they can build the base of players and have ever more support for them - more detailed setting books to fill out the existing settings, more ideas for character concepts and power constructs, etc.

[Talon]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I think there are huge reasons to do a 6th Edition. Recent RPGs (D&D 3rd edition in particular) really raised the bar in terms of ease of use. A lot could be done to improve aspects of Hero in this regard (WITHOUT significantly changing mechanics).

 

That said, I hope they wait a few years; I completely agree that redoing all the sourcebooks is the last thing I want to see.

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

That's what I've been saying. HERO is great, I love it, the only problem is that it's so dang massive that it's hard to get new players excited about it. I grew up with HERO when it was smaller, so I've gradually grown and understood why it's evolved into this beast. New players don't have this luxury and so for the most part bypass it.

 

I don't care how we do it, that's the one problem I'd like to see solved in HERO 6.

 

-shnar

[Josh S]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

That's what I've been saying. HERO is great, I love it, the only problem is that it's so dang massive that it's hard to get new players excited about it. I grew up with HERO when it was smaller, so I've gradually grown and understood why it's evolved into this beast. New players don't have this luxury and so for the most part bypass it.

 

Sidekick?

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I've actually mentioned that in a couple posts, Sidekick could solve this issue, but there's no clear path right now suggesting it. It's just sort of thrown in. One idea was a Hero6 should maybe have a BBB for the "advanced" user, and also a SideKick with a bunch of splat books...

 

-shnar

[Josh S]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I've actually mentioned that in a couple posts, Sidekick could solve this issue, but there's no clear path right now suggesting it. It's just sort of thrown in. One idea was a Hero6 should maybe have a BBB for the "advanced" user, and also a SideKick with a bunch of splat books...

 

Sidekick does solve the issue, though; that is how I got into Hero. Sidekick was my first purchase of a Hero 5edr book. I've since bought 5edr itself and a number of splat books. In fact, I have a few books in transit to me right now I ordered a week or so ago. I constantly use Sidekick, with only occassional reference to 5edr (usually made when cross-referencing a topic discussed in one of the genre books). Sidekick makes the Hero system accessible to me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I've actually mentioned that in a couple posts, Sidekick could solve this issue, but there's no clear path right now suggesting it. It's just sort of thrown in. One idea was a Hero6 should maybe have a BBB for the "advanced" user, and also a SideKick with a bunch of splat books...

 

-shnar

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "no clear path" since it's

1) On the shelf

2) Describes exactly what it is on the cover

3) A suggested buy by anyone on the boards to anyone who asks what books would be a good idea to get.

 

Should we should up at gamers houses and beat them with it then?

[Starwolf]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Should we show up at gamers houses and beat them with it then?

 

** Grabs club **

 

ROAD TRIP!!!!

 

[Terror]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

i'm still very new to 5th edition hero. so i hope they don't change it very soon, just purchased a lot of the books

 

Why i am looking at this thread is because 4th edition D&D was recently announced....which means new books to buy...

[Talon]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

There are no announced or hinted at plans for 6th Edition at present, this thread is just people trying to stir things up.