6th Edition Hero System

[pinecone]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I totally agree.

 

I could see a book called 'HERO System Options' wherein folks could be given advice on how to make things using existing rules. However, I think the online community already does a lot of that already-not sure if puting it in book form would be necessary. Nice, yes; but necessary? Dunno.

 

Yeah, rather than a V-6, I'd like a "Hero system Toolbox" with lots of "rebuild hero to suit sugestions and the like...Yum, yum!

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

You know, I've been thinking more about this. I think HERO's main problem right now is that it's *grown* too much. I've got my old beatup Champions1 book (the grey one from the box edition) and it seems so much more elegant then HERO 5 mainly because it's so much simpler.

 

There are simple, core rules that have existed in every HERO incarnation, and I think if a Version 6 were to come out, then it should be a back-to-the-basics type of version. I would create it as the following:

- Stip down a LOT of the HERO5 book into a core HERO6 book (remove a bunch of optional stuff like Vehicles, Bases, various Combat, etc. Even some of the trickier powers like Variable Pools and the like. Just the core rules, core stats/skills/powers/disads, etc).

- Create a bunch of Add-On books, maybe the "ultimate" series, that readds anything that was stripped out.

- Create a bunch of Genre books too (i.e. Star Hero, Champions, Fantasy Hero, and I love the "Age" books). There would be a lot of optional rules that are good for the setting but may be clutter for other settings in these books.

- Create a BoxSet version of the Genre books that combines the Core Rules and the Genre into one, so you could either buy Champions Box, which has CoreRules and Champions setting, or you could by the CoreRules BOOK and the Champions BOOK separately (that way if you bought Champions, StarHero, FantasyHero, you wouldn't have 3 sets of CoreRule books).

 

This makes the game easier for beginners to hop in and play, but keeps the toolkit aspect for the advanced users. Also, making a lot of the growth from Champions 1 to HERO 5 as optional rules would solve a lot of problems I think...

 

-shnar

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

That's the exact opposite of what I want to see. I want all the rules to make any game in any genre in one book. period.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

- Create a bunch of Add-On books, maybe the "ultimate" series, that readds anything that was stripped out.

 

No!!!!! NO Hero splatbooks!!!! no!!! the Horror!!!!

 

 

I'm with Ghost Angel - I want the rules in one book, so you don't have to go through multiple books for the rules.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'm with Ghost Angel - I want the rules in one book' date=' so you don't have to go through multiple books for the rules.[/quote']

 

True that.

 

99% of the time I use only 5ER.

 

Sure, the Ultimates have some cool alternate rules, a few Advantages I would use. But over all, they're good for very specific things. In a general "making a game" sense I like just one book.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

True that.

 

99% of the time I use only 5ER.

 

Sure, the Ultimates have some cool alternate rules, a few Advantages I would use. But over all, they're good for very specific things. In a general "making a game" sense I like just one book.

 

Yeah.

 

I like the USPDB, The Grimoires, Magic Items, Villian books, but what I love most about the way things are - that every single thing in every one of those books could just be built with the rules in 5ER. They are great timesavers, but they are not add-ons.

 

And even the stuff in the Ultimate books are not that much. Taking out the examples, I think all the alternate rules would only fill a book smaller than sidekick.

 

I don't want my rules held hostage to the next release - I got really tired of that in Rolemaster, then in D&D 3rd. I like having everything right up front, so no one can see a new rule in a new book and want to use it. The ultimate Skill is a great example - you have the complete skill system in 5er. But if you run a hugely skill heavy game USkill has a lot of info, if you don't, well you don't need it (I have it, and have read through it, and almost none of the extra detail in USkill is going to end up in my game), none of that info is necessary, it's just extra detail for those that want it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

True that.

 

99% of the time I use only 5ER.

 

Sure, the Ultimates have some cool alternate rules, a few Advantages I would use. But over all, they're good for very specific things. In a general "making a game" sense I like just one book.

 

I also like the adoption of new advantages and limitations of broad appplication from the early Ultimate books to 5er. I think consideration should be given to future revisions, at appropriate times, to incorporate changes suggested in Ultimate books which have shown reasonably wide potential application. This would perhaps include the alternate Trigger-based damage shield, the UEP Missile Deflection and several new advantages or limitations. As a general rule, I would suggest items be considered for inclusion in the main rules based on how often Steve has to say (in the Questions forum or in new books) "see this book for how to do that".

 

Now, the hard part is what gets CUT from 5er to make room for this new content (or how big 5er can get before it needs to be a two volume product).

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Now, the hard part is what gets CUT from 5er to make room for this new content (or how big 5er can get before it needs to be a two volume product).

 

And we are sort of getting that supplementary - The Character Creation Handbook and the Combat Handbook.

[gojira]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

You know' date=' I've been thinking more about this. I think HERO's main problem right now is that it's *grown* too much. I've got my old beatup Champions1 book (the grey one from the box edition) and it seems so much more elegant then HERO 5 mainly because it's so much simpler. [/quote']

 

This is I think a good idea. However GA and LM are correct: HERO splat books are a bad idea. I've thought about it for a while and I can't see any way around it. It's one huge tome or splat books, and splat books are a tool of Satan.

 

So what I'm thinking is that HERO should basically side step the problem. We have Sidekick now. That's basically a reverse splat book. If you by it, you're almost required to buy the big rules, but still a simplified version of the rules is still handy, so your investment is not wasted. Ditto things like the Combat Handbook and the up coming Character Creation Handbook. These are basically reverse splat books and seem to fit in with HERO's publishing strategy.

 

Here's the reverse splat book I'd like to see: CHAMPIONS: The Super Role Playing Game. Everything you need in one book!!

 

Just take Sidekick, beef it up slightly, add some material from a few of the campaign city and enemies books, and bingo, you have a My First Champions book for new players.

 

This wouldn't be a book for existing players. They have most (or all) of this material already. Unless of course they have some friends they want to temp into playing Champions.

 

But for new players it would re-create the experience that you (and I) had when we first started playing: a relatively complete, concise roleplaying system that handled supers very well and could also be extended to other gaming genres.

 

(And I think I've mentioned this idea here on this thread too. I'm just sort of re-animating it and letting it run around saying "Brainssss!" for a bit. Good times.)

 

I'd love to see DOJ try this. I think it could basically be a marketing tool where the DOJ makes a profit selling their advertising material to new players. And I think the old timers would buy, just to get a bit of the Champions 3rd Ed. feeling again. I think I'd buy it, to shove at new folks who are looking to play Champions.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

 

Here's the reverse splat book I'd like to see: CHAMPIONS: The Super Role Playing Game. Everything you need in one book!!

 

Just take Sidekick, beef it up slightly, add some material from a few of the campaign city and enemies books, and bingo, you have a My First Champions book for new players.

 

Personally I wouldn't mind that - I know that has come up on the boards before, having sidekick, some of the genre, and some of the setting book all in one. So someone who only plays Champions has all they need.

 

And have the big tome for system die hards that play everything, or those that want to move beyond the Sidekick rules. Say they buy CKC and see powers that aren't in "The Champions started set" and want to use them.

 

I know they are planning something like that for Lucha Hero. I can't wait to see how that turns out.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Here's the reverse splat book I'd like to see: CHAMPIONS: The Super Role Playing Game. Everything you need in one book!!

 

This is what they're doing with Lucha Libre Hero. It's going to be Genre+Setting+Rules in one book.

 

I hope it does well. I'd like to see a Fantasy version come out before Champions however - if for no other reason than to catch the D&D crowd that are wary about 4.0 or even just people who are new and undecided on system.

 

There are a number of smaller genres that could benefit from such treatments - Spy (Danger International) for one. Possibly even Cyber Hero.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

However GA and LM are correct: HERO splat books are a bad idea.

A bad idea for who? HERO players? Very possibly. Hero Games? Maybe not.

 

It's the ironic double-edged sword that's plagued Hero Games since their birth. One of the very elements that attracts people to the system (all the rules you need for any game are available in one book) also makes it more difficult for the company to prosper (because there's less urgent incentive for players to buy books beyond the core).

 

I've thought about it for a while and I can't see any way around it. It's one huge tome or splat books' date=' and splat books are a tool of Satan.[/quote']I think there's a way around it for the core rules. I think it would be practical (and not too far outside the HERO model) to have the core rules consist of two volumes. Book one: Character Creation, and book two: Everything Else.

 

Strictly from a physical reality standpoint, I think the book may need to be split into two volumes if it grows much beyond what it is in 5ER. I'd rather have two volumes that hold together and are easy to manipulate, than a single unwieldy book that falls apart.

 

(Actually, I'd personally like to see the core rules remain in one book for 6th Edition, and have that be possible because the core rules are much shorter than they currently are. I'd prefer more of a Sidekick-like approach to the presentation in the core rules, with adequate verbiage to cover 90+% of the applications of a given power or rule, and move the extra (often lengthy) verbiage needed to cover the other 10% to some other book (maybe a Gamemaster's tome or something).)

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

If you split it, and I'm not saying it's a good idea - but it has some pros to it.

 

A split set of rules should look like

The Mechanics (as Derek said)

Building A Game (a guideline on using the rules)

 

BAG would contain many more examples, the Genre-By-Genre section massively expanded to give good space to major and sub genres, a few articles on how to limit what you're using in your game to catch the proper feel.

 

As an example - Tuala Morn is a very strong setting more so because of what it explicitly leaves out and restricts than what it allows. It introduces no new rules for the setting but does tell you what's not appropriate.

 

Gamers in general have a tendency to want to make new rules for settings and genres when you really only need to (specifically with Hero) adjust and restrict the rules at hand.

 

As an example perhaps the entire concept of how Force Field works mechanically is not appropriate for your Fantasy Hero game, you simply say "can't have it." But next you're going to build a Time Lords game where all the PCs have some form of Temporal Manipulation ability, and you want them to have a kind of Stop Time ability in the group somewhere - but there's no Power for that. Instead of making a new one we can take Ultimate Speedsters example of retooling EDM for our needs. If it's going to be the only use of EDM in the game, and controlled at that, then adjusting one Power to fit our needs is more productive than a new Power.

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

The elegance of Champions1 is missing in the mass of HERO5, and I think the next version should split things out into specific areas. Even if you want to leave all the powers in the core rules, I'd still split things out into logical books, something like CharGen, Combat, Vehicles, and Bases. If you don't like the idea of genre specific books (i.e. Fantasy Hero Vehicles vs. Star Hero Vehicles), at the very least trim the fat out of the main book.

 

I can play with Champions1 rules very easily and it's not a behemoth for players to read/search through. Some optional rules from Champions 2 and 3 are nice, but not in the least bit needed to enjoy my Superhero game. I'd like to see that return to HERO...

 

-shnar

[gojira]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

A bad idea for who? HERO players? Very possibly. Hero Games? Maybe not.

 

Maybe not, but for a small company I think it's hard to force an upgrade. Folks will just play what they have already, and sales will suffer. I'd like to know how GURPS 4e is faring. I sure didn't upgrade.

 

 

I think there's a way around it for the core rules. I think it would be practical (and not too far outside the HERO model) to have the core rules consist of two volumes. Book one: Character Creation, and book two: Everything Else.

 

This would be cool, and as you say may be required at some point. I think they are tending that way already with Combat Handbook and Character creation handbook.

 

 

I'm just tying to think out of the box a little and come up with an idea that might truly jump-start some new sales. Is it a good idea? I dunno, but it could be tested; if sales are good then it can be pushed more.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

The elegance of Champions1 is missing in the mass of HERO5, and I think the next version should split things out into specific areas. Even if you want to leave all the powers in the core rules, I'd still split things out into logical books, something like CharGen, Combat, Vehicles, and Bases. If you don't like the idea of genre specific books (i.e. Fantasy Hero Vehicles vs. Star Hero Vehicles), at the very least trim the fat out of the main book.

 

I can play with Champions1 rules very easily and it's not a behemoth for players to read/search through. Some optional rules from Champions 2 and 3 are nice, but not in the least bit needed to enjoy my Superhero game. I'd like to see that return to HERO...

 

-shnar

emphasis mine.

 

Yeah well some people use HERO for things beyond superheroes.

 

I don't think the rules are very "fat" at all. They allow me to make any game in any genre I want quite nicely.

 

And that Genre rarely includes superheroes. Because I don't like that genre.

 

HERO is not Champions anymore. deal with it.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

emphasis mine.

 

Yeah well some people use HERO for things beyond superheroes.

 

I don't think the rules are very "fat" at all. They allow me to make any game in any genre I want quite nicely.

 

And that Genre rarely includes superheroes. Because I don't like that genre.

 

HERO is not Champions anymore. deal with it.

HERO needn't be Champions, but that doesn't mean it can't also have the simplicity/elegance it once had.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

HERO needn't be Champions' date=' but that doesn't mean it can't also have the simplicity/elegance it once had.[/quote']

 

I'm not arguing against the idea of simplicity. or elegance.

 

What gets me is the idea that it's "Champions" those who want to simplify inevitably refer back to when the system presented itself as a single genre. And then go on about how genre books should contain the rules for the genre - I'm not even sure what that means because all the rules currently in Fifth I find to be universally applicable to all genres.

 

My introduction to HERO was through Fantasy. Does that mean I should argue we need to toss out those "superhero" rules?

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'm not arguing against the idea of simplicity. or elegance.

 

What gets me is the idea that it's "Champions" those who want to simplify inevitably refer back to when the system presented itself as a single genre. And then go on about how genre books should contain the rules for the genre - I'm not even sure what that means because all the rules currently in Fifth I find to be universally applicable to all genres.

 

My introduction to HERO was through Fantasy. Does that mean I should argue we need to toss out those "superhero" rules?

Although that poster said "superhero" and I don't doubt that's the intent of some, many simple refer to "Champions" because that was the first system. I believe for most of us who use that wording it's to convey what the system was in essence.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Although that poster said "superhero" and I don't doubt that's the intent of some' date=' many simple refer to "Champions" because that was the first system. I believe for most of us who use that wording it's to convey what the system was in essence.[/quote']

 

I take those statements that it was, in essence, a superhero game and shouldn't have evolved past that - or if it does each genre should have it's own rules but the core rules should always be "Champions" or Superhero.

 

I don't care if you call it Champions - I just don't want it to BE Champions.

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

emphasis mine.

 

Yeah well some people use HERO for things beyond superheroes.

 

I don't think the rules are very "fat" at all. They allow me to make any game in any genre I want quite nicely.

 

And that Genre rarely includes superheroes. Because I don't like that genre.

 

HERO is not Champions anymore. deal with it.

 

I just used Champions as an example. My Fantasy Hero and Star Hero books are a lot smaller and more elegant than HERO5 + FantasyHero5. There's a LOT in HERO5 that I just don't use in FantasyHero, it's not needed. Vehicles and Bases off the top of my head, though how magic is treated is another.

 

It just seems to me that the problem with HERO is the growth of HERO. Reduce the core book to the primary elements then make everything else an add-on book is how I'd do HERO6...

 

-shnar

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

There's a LOT in HERO5 that I just don't use in FantasyHero, it's not needed. Vehicles and Bases off the top of my head, though how magic is treated is another.

 

-shnar

 

I use them all the time in my FH game. Wagons, chariots, ships at sea - castles, wizards towers, ruins. Vehicles and bases that I use all the time.

 

I don't mind splitting things, but what I want to see-

 

You have the core rules (whether it be a massive tome like 5ER, or split into two books), but with that you can run any game, and do anything you need. No special rules and special cases in genre or ulitmate books (I think there is a little too much of that now).

 

Every item/spell/enemy book can be created with what is in the core rules. So all you need are the core rules (not even the genre or setting book) and everything else is just "how to use the rules in this genre/setting")

 

Different rules spread among different books like they were under 3rd is horribly evil to me. I want my rules all in one place - anything that starts to look like splats I'm against: Here are the core rules - FH has specific fantasy rules, The base book has the base rules, ect... The Core rules should be in the main book, and you should be able to run any game with just what is with that.

 

There's a LOT in HERO5 that I just don't use in FantasyHero, it's not needed.

 

But remember that the rules in Hero 5th are for the HERO system. It may not be needed in your campaign, but someone else's (as I mentioned above) it just might be. The core rules should be an enabler (here are all the rules you need, and then some, pick what works for you) not a disabler (well the vehicle rules will be in the vehicle book, but that won't be out for another 6 months)

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I just used Champions as an example. My Fantasy Hero and Star Hero books are a lot smaller and more elegant than HERO5 + FantasyHero5. There's a LOT in HERO5 that I just don't use in FantasyHero, it's not needed. Vehicles and Bases off the top of my head, though how magic is treated is another.

 

It just seems to me that the problem with HERO is the growth of HERO. Reduce the core book to the primary elements then make everything else an add-on book is how I'd do HERO6...

 

-shnar

 

The Core Rules are what you use to make ANY game.

 

Vehicles for any game using vehicles - Star, Pulp, Modern (Dark Champions) being very prominent examples

Bases for any game using Bases - Champions, Dark Champions, Fantasy (castles anyone?), Star

Powers for any game using Powers - All Of Them

Skills for any game using Skills

Talents for any game using Talents

Perks for any game using Perks

You get the idea.

 

HERO is about making Your Game How You Want It.

 

The genre books provide guidelines on how to use HERO to define the genre, but you don't need them for anything. Fantasy Hero has three (3) different ways of constructing Magic using the HERO System. That may not be needed in the Core Rules, but some mention is made in 5ER on thoughts for making a magic system.

 

I'm not sure what parts aren't "Core Rules" enough - but I see them all as being pretty needed to make any genre I want with one book. That's why I play Hero.

 

Otherwise it'd be D20 with six-siders. No one wants that.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'm not sure what parts aren't "Core Rules" enough - but I see them all as being pretty needed to make any genre I want with one book. That's why I play Hero.

 

Otherwise it'd be D20 with six-siders. No one wants that.

 

Or, as some of us do, many genres in a mash or cross genre - which is one of HERO's greatest strengths - I know of no other system that handles dimhopping between genres, or genre mashups as well as Hero.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

There's a LOT in HERO5 that I just don't use in FantasyHero' date=' it's not needed. Vehicles and Bases off the top of my head, though how magic is treated is another.[/quote']

 

This part is still making my head spin.

 

Why Vehicles Are Core Rules:

1) Cyber Hero: Ambunought

2) Fantasy Hero: Ships, Flying Ships

3) Dark Champions: Cool Motorcycles, Surveilance Vans

4) Post-Apocalypse Hero: V-8 Interceptor

5) Star Hero: Space Ships

6) Champions: Superjets

7) Pulp Hero: Steam Ships, Cars

8) Western Hero: Trains

9) Pirate Hero: Lots Of Ships

 

Why Bases Are Core Rules:

1) Cyber Hero: The Hideout

2) Fantasy Hero: Castles, Dungeons & Taverns

3) Dark Champions: The Safe House

4) Post-Apocalypse Hero: Atomic Bomb Shelter

5) Star Hero: Space Stations

6) Champions: Superbases/Villain Hideouts

7) Pulp Hero: Speak Easies, Gambling Dens, Lost Temples

8) Ninja Hero: Evil Masters Mountain Side Enclave, Dojos & Monks Temples

 

 

Yeah, you're right. No one uses those rules.