6th Edition Hero System

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'd say it would remove a *tiny* amount of math - a small part of the math which is done once only, at character creation time, and never comes up in play at all.

 

 

That depends whose character sheets you're using. Mine don't have these problems.

 

And also remove one of the facets of character creation that really works for me. not a winner in my book.

[Foxiekins]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'd change the max on Normal Characteristics to double the base value, for Figured Characteristics... The maxes on Basic Characteristics from Age would thus affect them automatically... This would be an easily remembered general rule, instead of the somewhat arbitrary maxes the Figured Characteristics have now... But then again, people may point their fingers and say "That's just a tweak"...

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

For example' date=' making figured characteristics non-figured; wouldn't really change Hero much, but would remove a LOT of math. [/quote']

 

I've been suggesting that for YEARS.

 

Or take the "Advantages for Multipower Reserves" section' date=' 5ER p. 319. This section takes a lot of space to say "you can do this, here's how you would do this, but you probably shouldn't do this -- in fact, it's better not to do this". Though it conveys information accurately, it does so inefficiently. [/quote']

 

Possibly it could be better written, but I think it does a pretty good job of conveying the meaning. And it was written by a lawyer.

 

Or take character sheets. Why should the PER roll, one of the most important and commonly used rolls, be hidden near the INT stat? Why should DCV based on DEX be listed in one place, with "actual DCV" (say, with size modifiers included) not listed anywhere?

 

I don't know that I've used an "official" character sheet for any game I've played since the early 80s. I don't know that that even counts as a change of the game, much less a rules change.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

HERO 5th is one of the few systems where I've not seen consistent claims of "ultimate archetypes" or "useless archetypes". That is to say, I've seldom heard of how *every* character regardless of concept *must* have "ability X" to be useful (in past editions, that was Martial Arts), or conversely if *any* character has "ability Y" they're worthless.

 

The HERO crew has done a fine job of keeping rules-creep to a minimum. There are no "mandatory supplements" required for play, and those supplements which are on most shelves are their because of the quality of the supplement, rather than any rules revisions it adds.

 

Though, I do bow to the reality that sooner or later another revision of the HERO rules will come down the line. I'm pretty certain that any sort of revision will not make the game we enjoy now obsolete. I think there are a few developments and ideas in supplemental material that deserve to be added into the "Toolkit Rules Book". Making the base characteristics variable dependent on campaign theme (from Valdorian Age) is one. The "Super Skills" builds from Dark Champions is another.

 

In my profound and well-reasoned opinion (stop LAUGHING Derek!!!) new editions of a game should be written for the potential new player rather than those players who are already bought into the game. Thus, at this stage in HERO's development, a 6th edition should be as backwards-compatible as possible, and streamlined for the new player (which, will make it attractive for us established HEROs).

[AnotherSkip]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Heck their are even 2 companies putting out different versions of Earthdawn.

 

When a reboot is done because major work needs to be done to improve a system I get that. When it is done because core books make more money and it is merely a corporate cash cow decision I get it however I won't support it.

 

 

ON the Earthdawn front it isn't a cash cow decision, one group is going ahead with V2.0, another company likes version 1.1, Both kinda seek system improvement, but the 2,0 guys are definately not gamer friendly.....

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I agree. I've never had much sympathy for this argument. The HERO System only has two basic dice-rolling mechanics:

1. To determine succeed/fail, roll 3d6 and roll low.
   
2. To determine amount of effect, roll the number of effect dice and roll high.

Are there really people out there who can't remember two things? Seriously? Two? It's not like first edition AD&D where virtually every rule was its own dice rolling mechanic. It's just two...

But I think the simple issue is, why NOT be consistent? What does it get one? Legacy players would be bugged, but OTOH as you say it's simple enough regardless. All this said, I seei it as essentially an aesthetics issue and doesn't represent anything terrible to me, but I don't see a value in maintaining this disconnect.

[bwdemon]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Right... so keeping with that theme, and other than my own previously mentioned comments, then what, should I ask, are the real CHANGES?

 

I'm not playing a company line, I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. 33 pages of "Well, I'd like this," but no one has identified an actual glaring flaw that can't be EASILY house ruled or is something that they personally wanted changed for minimal reason. So... where's the beef?

 

I mentioned a bunch of them way back in the second post. Those changes deal largely with game balance. I have others I would add to the list now: no PS12 recovery, rebuild superheroic characters so they scale reasonably with heroic characters (though that's technically a setting change and not a rules change), and likely many more.

 

Everything can be houseruled, but there comes a point where the houserules overtake the baserules and it just isn't worth messing with anymore. HERO has fundamental balance issues that have existed since its inception that it has failed (willfully) to correct.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

But I think the simple issue is' date=' why NOT be consistent? ... (snip) ... Legacy players would be bugged[/quote']That's why not. Changing it also wouldn't be a huge gain in functionality, so why disrupt what your core of players have been doing for over 25 years? In making the system more newbie-friendly, it's also important to avoid ruffling the existing players' feathers too much. You don't want to alienate your main supporters. If it was something clearly broken, that would be different. But this is almost entirely esthetic, so why not leave well enough alone?

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

That's why not. Changing it also wouldn't be a huge gain in functionality' date=' so why disrupt what your core of players have been doing for over 25 years? In making the system more newbie-friendly, it's also important to avoid ruffling the existing players' feathers too much. You don't want to alienate your main supporters. If it was something clearly broken, that would be different. But this is almost entirely esthetic, so why not leave well enough alone? [/quote']

But, as you say, if it's so simple....

 

Just stating, that knife cuts both ways. Bearing in mind a lot of people don't play HERO as their only or main game plus consistency is easier on noobs, I would value those considerations higher than veterans who aren't going to leave over this and who, as you say, can adapt. Not to suggest you are per se wrong of course, just hoping to be clear as to my contrasting view. But I understand one can value not inconveniencing long-time users more. I think it's better to do the "right thing", though as consistency is more long-term intuitive.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

But I understand one can value not inconveniencing long-time users more. I think it's better to do the "right thing"' date=' though as consistency is more long-term intuitive.[/quote']I agree with you that it's the "right thing" from a design perspective. Were I designing the HERO System, and doing it now, without its own past history in place, I'd make the dice mechanic(s) consistent.

 

I'm just not sure the gain would balance the potential loss to make that change now. Maybe I'm just too gun-shy in the post-Fuzion era, but I think my tendency at this late stage of the game would be to err on the side of keeping the loyalists happy.

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

But, as you say, if it's so simple....

 

Just stating, that knife cuts both ways. Bearing in mind a lot of people don't play HERO as their only or main game plus consistency is easier on noobs, I would value those considerations higher than veterans who aren't going to leave over this and who, as you say, can adapt. Not to suggest you are per se wrong of course, just hoping to be clear as to my contrasting view. But I understand one can value not inconveniencing long-time users more. I think it's better to do the "right thing", though as consistency is more long-term intuitive.

 

I guess I just don't even see it as a matter of "consistancy". The game is consistant. When you are looking for sucess at doing something, you always want to roll low. That is consistent. When you are counting up effect you always want to roll high. That is consistent.

 

I guess I just don't understand how this is "harder" than any of the alternatives.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I guess I just don't even see it as a matter of "consistancy". The game is consistant. When you are looking for sucess at doing something, you always want to roll low. That is consistent. When you are counting up effect you always want to roll high. That is consistent.

 

I guess I just don't understand how this is "harder" than any of the alternatives.

I understand Derek's point but not this.

 

I'm not sure how to say it other than it is fundamentally easier to memorize a single direction (high = good) than 2 situational ones (high = good for A, high = bad for . No specific rationale for why to roll low in a to-hit situation to my knowledge (I can see the intuitive quality of rolling high for damage, more = more damagin), so it's an arbitrary extra learning. No one is saying it's insurmountable. It is additional, though.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Personally I like the roll under system better. No logical reason, I just do.

 

As for which might be easier "all roll high" and "this one is low, that one is high" - If making that distinction is difficult maybe we should look at our education system before our recreation for the change.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I don't know that I've used an "official" character sheet for any game I've played since the early 80s. I don't know that that even counts as a change of the game' date=' much less a rules change.[/quote']

 

I'm a big proponent of the theory that the character sheet is the GUI for the game you play.

 

Changes in the opresentation of the sheet and information can make huge differences to gameplay.

 

I would definitely like to see GM sheets and Player sheets where the sheets facilitated gameplay and almost completely avoided presentation of game mechanics.

 

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Personally I like the roll under system better. No logical reason, I just do.

 

As for which might be easier "all roll high" and "this one is low, that one is high" - If making that distinction is difficult maybe we should look at our education system before our recreation for the change.

Actually I like it better, too, but that's just because I'm used to it.

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I understand Derek's point but not this.

 

I'm not sure how to say it other than it is fundamentally easier to memorize a single direction (high = good) than 2 situational ones (high = good for A, high = bad for . No specific rationale for why to roll low in a to-hit situation to my knowledge (I can see the intuitive quality of rolling high for damage, more = more damagin), so it's an arbitrary extra learning. No one is saying it's insurmountable. It is additional, though.

 

I guess I just don't see the issue. If it is "more difficult" it would be much like it is more difficult to pick up a 10 pound weight that has an ant on it than to pick up a 10 pound weight without that extra ant.

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'm a big proponent of the theory that the character sheet is the GUI for the game you play.

 

Changes in the opresentation of the sheet and information can make huge differences to gameplay.

 

I would definitely like to see GM sheets and Player sheets where the sheets facilitated gameplay and almost completely avoided presentation of game mechanics.

 

 

Doc

 

Maybe so, but the character sheet looks like whatever you want it to look like. So the GUI is whatever you want it to be.

 

Personally I prefer to know my character well enough that I don't need to look at the sheet during play. I don't succeed, but that is my goal.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I guess I just don't see the issue. If it is "more difficult" it would be much like it is more difficult to pick up a 10 pound weight that has an ant on it than to pick up a 10 pound weight without that extra ant.

 

It depends on the ant. If it's one of the common northern US variety that is easily dispatched with the Sun and a magnifying glass. No problem. But if it's one of those mutant radioactive Amazon ants with the giant jaws, acid sprayers, and mind control antennae. Count me out. I ain't touching that 10 pound weight. No siree!

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

It depends on the ant. If it's one of the common northern US variety that is easily dispatched with the Sun and a magnifying glass. No problem. But if it's one of those mutant radioactive Amazon ants with the giant jaws' date=' acid sprayers, and mind control antennae. Count me out. I ain't touching that 10 pound weight. No siree![/quote']

 

*boot to the head*

 

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Maybe so, but the character sheet looks like whatever you want it to look like. So the GUI is whatever you want it to be.

 

Personally I prefer to know my character well enough that I don't need to look at the sheet during play. I don't succeed, but that is my goal.

 

When your a grizzled veteran you dont need a character sheet to refer to, but when your a grizzled veteran you dont need to buy a new edition either!

 

The character sheet is definitely for new players, the better the GUI the better the access to the game system. New players and GMs are not equipped to custom build a Hero character sheet and a few pre-loaded ones in the game would go a long way to getting rid of the "its hard to play" syndrome.

 

 

Doc

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

When your a grizzled veteran you dont need a character sheet to refer to, but when your a grizzled veteran you dont need to buy a new edition either!

 

The character sheet is definitely for new players, the better the GUI the better the access to the game system. New players and GMs are not equipped to custom build a Hero character sheet and a few pre-loaded ones in the game would go a long way to getting rid of the "its hard to play" syndrome.

 

 

Doc

 

I'd say something about not being all THAT grizzled, but it wouldn't be true. And as grizzled as I am, I'll probably still snap up a copy or two of any new version of the rules that Hero/DOJ puts out.

 

I can see your point, though I'm a bit of an odd duck. I've generally used my own sheets for most games that I've played. I used Champions sheets more than ones from any other game, but that was mostly because of the character sketch "dummys" that were on them.

 

Though as far as character sheets go, Hero Designer is already one of the best purchases they can make after the core rule book. And it already has a lot of custom sheets that ship with it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Besides, the quest for a perfect character sheet is a futile one, IMO. No two players are alike. A sheet that seems elegant and useful to one person seems too sparse to another, and overly-cluttered to a third. A character sheet is almost like art in its subjectivity.

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Besides' date=' the quest for a perfect character sheet is a futile one, IMO. No two players are alike. A sheet that seems elegant and useful to one person seems too sparse to another, and overly-cluttered to a third. A character sheet is almost like art in its subjectivity. [/quote']

 

Almost?

 

I for one hate the idea of a character sheet that doesn't have game mechanics on it. My goal designing sheets has always been to fit as much data on the sheet as possible.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I've never seen a character sheet in a book I've liked, for any system at any point in time. They all sucked.

 

Most of them make horrible use of white space and none of them organize things like my head does.

 

Quite frankly, "changing the character sheet" ranks so low on the list of things it fell off.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

But to DD's point, the "GUI" sets the tone. The GUI from the original Champions on has been mechanics-heavy, reinforcing the transparent construction aspect of the game. A GUI which, for example, puts characteristics on the second page or relegates them to an inconspicuous place is likely to implicitly downplay the importance of char rolls, for example - assuming of course such downplaying is not contrary to the writing of the rules.

 

I would argue the current and generally the prior character sheets versions do reinforce the "feel" of HERO in its mechancs-heavy orientation. As a case in point, in most versions, there's no "required" space for SFX for powers (let alone skills!), it's assumed this will be done as part of text as well as, probably, the more easily maintained-in-head-space aspect.

 

The issue from my perspective therefore is one of emphasis and a proper mirroring of the priority of the ruleset. It's not about "good" or "likable," exactly.

 

One could take an interesting position of abolishing character sheets entirely (i.e., no standard set forth in the book with each PC showing different styles of doing character sheets) to stress the DIY and customizability of the system. Or as much as possible "forcing" players to the website and HD in order to encourage those aspect of character documentation.