6th Edition Hero System

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I take those statements that it was, in essence, a superhero game and shouldn't have evolved past that - or if it does each genre should have it's own rules but the core rules should always be "Champions" or Superhero.

 

I don't care if you call it Champions - I just don't want it to BE Champions.

I think that's an unfair inference, not so much where the prior poster specifically said "superhero," but you and I have seen MANY of such posts and only rarely have I seen such an inference whatsoever.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I think that's an unfair inference' date=' not so much where the prior poster specifically said "superhero," but you and I have seen MANY of such posts and only rarely have I seen such an inference whatsoever.[/quote']

 

Over the past couple of years I have seen a number of posts where people lament the shift that occurred from 3rd to 4th (i.e. One Book Of All Rules). Granted it has been less as time goes on and new players join the boards.

 

But I've seen enough to be touchy. And it's not just in direct posts, there are a number where the default assumption is a Superhero setting.

 

I may be inferring more often than is warranted, but only because I'm sensitive to the issue.

 

Let me be clear on this issue - any step that causes the Hero Rules to be split by "genre applicability" or "genre specific rules" is bad, wrong and ultimately a disservice to the system.

 

There's a difference between readapting the rules to fit a specific type of game, and parceling out the rules so they are effectively different but similar for each genre. And that's the tone of shift I see in the current discussion.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Let me be clear on this issue - any step that causes the Hero Rules to be split by "genre applicability" or "genre specific rules" is bad, wrong and ultimately a disservice to the system.

 

Qouted for truth, simple everlasting truth, that all should partake of.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Then this means all of the genre-specific books are a problem - as they indeed do have "genre specific rules."

 

PS - hope not too late - and to add, yes, of course, we understand the central point here, as to core rules and ability to play "any genre" (I think that's not possible with any universal system, rather you are playing YOUR intrepretation as opposed to someone else's of various genra, but that's fine of course) out of a single book. But the point is, indeed, the current system has many genre specific rules spread out throughout the genre books as well as rules in the Ultimate series. The issue is what is the dividing line, and that line is not science, it is judgement. (added a moment after ->) And therefore that is the issue, not the issue that the core book must be so supportive of all genra it has all possibilities. And so it is reasonable to discuss splitting out some of the nuance of the core book as it stands.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Then this means all of the genre-specific books are a problem - as they indeed do have "genre specific rules."

 

No, they have genre specific adaptions of the Rules.

 

There is a difference between a new rule and reworking an old rule.

 

Take The Speed Zone and the Macroverse and Microverse (Speedster and Metamorph respectively). All of them use Extra Dimensional Movement is a rather unorthodox method, each of them has guidelines on how to use them in a game. Each of them uses rules and other Powers from the main book to achieve their affects.

 

Now, some books introduce some interesting and new Power Modifiers (Spell Limitation from Fantasy Hero), only Dark Champions has introduced a whole new Power (Piercing, and even that must work with an existing Power making it more of a Power Modifier).

 

Some Adaptions of the main rules:

Star Hero suggests allowing Sense Powers in a Framework (VPP Specifically) to simulate "adjustable/modifiable sensor arrays, altering the "No Special Powers In A Framework" Rule - but no new rules on how to make such a thing.

Fantasy Hero introduces the Spell Limitation but states it simply a way to mark campaign ground rules (such as restrictions on the uses of END).

 

 

Instead of a host of new Rules the genre books suggest ways of using the Rules to create a certain feeling in the game. Tuala Morn states only those with the full Druid Package Deal may learn Druidic Magic. This is a campaign guideline rule, not a system level rule.

 

Genre books are tools that show just how a GM may set up a game with "setting guideline rules" but there are no new System Rules that all Fantasy Hero (as an example) games utilize.

 

Some Fantasy Hero games would have characters buy Powers/Spell strait like Superhero games would (most likely official candidate is Atlantean Age). Some severely restrict how magic may be bought (all magic in a Multipower Pool for instance). FH gives you three such ways to construct guidelines with the HERO System Rules.

 

I do not want to open my HERO System book to find out that the writer has decided Megascale is only appropriate for Star Hero campaigns and removed it from the System Rules. Or that Persistent is only useful for Champions campaigns and placed it in that book and not the System Rules. Or some other similar arbitrary interpretation of what Powers, Modifiers and Skills belong in which genre.

 

On that note there's also ideas that you just didn't have originally. Usable As Second Mode Of Movement was not in Fifth Edition, but is in Fifth Edition Revised (as it was most commonly seen as Usable Underwater for Flight up to that point). That's a "oh hey, what about this!" moment. You can't fault someone not thinking of everything at the start.

 

But splitting out already existing Rules and System Elements into genre defined categories? Immensely bad idea.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

And so it is reasonable to discuss splitting out some of the nuance of the core book as it stands.

 

Personally I think all of the new or variant rules that are in the current ultimate books and the genre books should be added to the core book of 6th. As G-A pointed out there aren't that many. Any rule should live in the core rulebook - use each edition to add the nifty new powers/advantages/limitations that came up under the previous edition to be added to the core rules. So under each edition the core rules contain every rule from the previous edition (unless there are two variant rules, and one is chosen instead of another like the variant density control powers or shapeshift from U metamoph)

 

Then the genre books can have even less rules in them, and more "how to use the rules" and setting advice.

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I think you're missing the point that I'm trying to make. Previous HERO versions were simple, elegant. THAT's what I want out of HERO6. The BigBlackBook has got to go, and I think it's in either one of two ways: Either splitting out similar to Hero3, or to split out the core rules into specific areas (i.e. a Powers Book, a Combat Book, a Base Book, a Vehicle Book, etc).

 

I think we need to address why we're even thinking about a enw version of Hero. The only complaint I ever hear about HERO is that it's too complex. The BBB scares them off. This is probably the biggest reason I feel that splitting the book up is the best thing for a HERO6. Make a Core-Rules book that is just basic skills, basic powers, basic adds/limits, basic disads, and basic combat. Just enough to play. Then have the Ultimate Books expand everything.

 

Heck, maybe they can satisfy both crowds. Create the "splat" books AND create a massive tome. You like the tome, buy that. You like more managable books, buy those. In the end, the system is the same...

 

-shnar

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

No, they have genre specific adaptions of the Rules.

 

There is a difference between a new rule and reworking an old rule.

 

Take The Speed Zone and the Macroverse and Microverse (Speedster and Metamorph respectively). All of them use Extra Dimensional Movement is a rather unorthodox method, each of them has guidelines on how to use them in a game. Each of them uses rules and other Powers from the main book to achieve their affects.

 

Now, some books introduce some interesting and new Power Modifiers (Spell Limitation from Fantasy Hero), only Dark Champions has introduced a whole new Power (Piercing, and even that must work with an existing Power making it more of a Power Modifier).

 

Some Adaptions of the main rules:

Star Hero suggests allowing Sense Powers in a Framework (VPP Specifically) to simulate "adjustable/modifiable sensor arrays, altering the "No Special Powers In A Framework" Rule - but no new rules on how to make such a thing.

Fantasy Hero introduces the Spell Limitation but states it simply a way to mark campaign ground rules (such as restrictions on the uses of END).

 

 

Instead of a host of new Rules the genre books suggest ways of using the Rules to create a certain feeling in the game. Tuala Morn states only those with the full Druid Package Deal may learn Druidic Magic. This is a campaign guideline rule, not a system level rule.

 

Genre books are tools that show just how a GM may set up a game with "setting guideline rules" but there are no new System Rules that all Fantasy Hero (as an example) games utilize.

 

Some Fantasy Hero games would have characters buy Powers/Spell strait like Superhero games would (most likely official candidate is Atlantean Age). Some severely restrict how magic may be bought (all magic in a Multipower Pool for instance). FH gives you three such ways to construct guidelines with the HERO System Rules.

 

I do not want to open my HERO System book to find out that the writer has decided Megascale is only appropriate for Star Hero campaigns and removed it from the System Rules. Or that Persistent is only useful for Champions campaigns and placed it in that book and not the System Rules. Or some other similar arbitrary interpretation of what Powers, Modifiers and Skills belong in which genre.

 

On that note there's also ideas that you just didn't have originally. Usable As Second Mode Of Movement was not in Fifth Edition, but is in Fifth Edition Revised (as it was most commonly seen as Usable Underwater for Flight up to that point). That's a "oh hey, what about this!" moment. You can't fault someone not thinking of everything at the start.

 

But splitting out already existing Rules and System Elements into genre defined categories? Immensely bad idea.

So recosting and new options aren't "new rules"? I think that's a rather too fine a point.

 

Unfortunately I think you quoted and replied before you read my revised post, so that may have (understandably) incorrectly shaded your response.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Personally I think all of the new or variant rules that are in the current ultimate books and the genre books should be added to the core book of 6th. As G-A pointed out there aren't that many. Any rule should live in the core rulebook - use each edition to add the nifty new powers/advantages/limitations that came up under the previous edition to be added to the core rules. So under each edition the core rules contain every rule from the previous edition (unless there are two variant rules, and one is chosen instead of another like the variant density control powers or shapeshift from U metamoph)

 

Then the genre books can have even less rules in them, and more "how to use the rules" and setting advice.

There aren't too many? I really disagree. From the idea of recosting magic in Fantasy HERO to detailed optional rules on vehicles elsewhere, there are tons. I'm not suggesting this is wrong or bad. I am suggesting that "core" is not a definition so easily come by. I would challenge many of the ideas in 5th as non-core along those lines. As done elsewhere. But I'm tired of this, I don't know how many times these circles have been gone in.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Then this means all of the genre-specific books are a problem - as they indeed do have "genre specific rules."

 

PS - hope not too late - and to add, yes, of course, we understand the central point here, as to core rules and ability to play "any genre" (I think that's not possible with any universal system, rather you are playing YOUR intrepretation as opposed to someone else's of various genra, but that's fine of course) out of a single book. But the point is, indeed, the current system has many genre specific rules spread out throughout the genre books as well as rules in the Ultimate series. The issue is what is the dividing line, and that line is not science, it is judgement. (added a moment after ->) And therefore that is the issue, not the issue that the core book must be so supportive of all genra it has all possibilities. And so it is reasonable to discuss splitting out some of the nuance of the core book as it stands.

 

So recosting and new options aren't "new rules"? I think that's a rather too fine a point.

 

Unfortunately I think you quoted and replied before you read my revised post, so that may have (understandably) incorrectly shaded your response.

 

I did reply before you edit.

 

And your statement about "now any genre but your interpretation" is actually exactly what I mean by any genre (my idea of Fantasy, your idea of Fantasy and anyone else's idea of Fantasy).

 

Take the idea of costing Powers for Magic. Is that really a new rule or is that simply looking at how to bend the rules to your flavor of magic? I believe the latter.

 

Now - splitting the book out into various different elements as Shnar suggested in his last post - that I could see.

 

Between Character Creation Handbook & Combat Handbook you have pretty much everything. There's some parts missing, but Bases/Vehicles should be dropped into the CCH if you want to make that a "core" book. After that a third book Genre Guide To Hero Games would do the trick.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

There aren't too many? I really disagree. From the idea of recosting magic in Fantasy HERO to detailed optional rules on vehicles elsewhere' date=' there are tons. I'm not suggesting this is wrong or bad. I am suggesting that "core" is not a definition so easily come by. [/quote']

 

I can see that. As I have stated before, I don't like those all that much.

 

But I'm tired of this, I don't know how many times these circles have been gone in.

 

I understand.

 

I just feel so strongly about the "big core vs spread out" discussion that I feel the need to grab my shield and sword and defend the "Put the rules in one place" approach any time the subject comes up.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

 

Between Character Creation Handbook & Combat Handbook you have pretty much everything. There's some parts missing, but Bases/Vehicles should be dropped into the CCH if you want to make that a "core" book. After that a third book Genre Guide To Hero Games would do the trick.

 

I agree there. I wouldn't mind a split along those lines.

A character creation only book the size of Fred (rather than 5ER) or a little smaller, a combat handbook, and the idea of a genre guide would work for me.

 

These days I don't look at 5ER for any combat stuff, I go to the Combat Handbook, and when the CCH comes out, I expect to use it when creating characters.

Splitting 6th into that kind of thing would makes sense to me.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

 

I think we need to address why we're even thinking about a enw version of Hero.

 

Mostly someone wanted to discuss what they wanted in 6th. The Hero guys have said nothing about it, and the only reference I can remember is that Steve didn't plan on one any time soon (he said something like 2011 or later), so the thread is just a thought experiment at this point.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

What gets me about the discussion here is why it is being talked about as an either or situation.

 

I dont even think that this has to wait for a sixth edition.

 

I think Sidekick was a great idea. I think that a Sidekick with enough added to make it a playable Champions game, or a playable Fantasy or Star Hero game would be even better.

 

It would provide people with a cut down game that they could play and possibly lead them into purchasing the full rules to get access to the other cool stuff in there. Once convinced of the system and how it works the big book is not so much a frightening prospect as an inviting one.

 

I think that the only problem with Sidekick is that there is still a lot of work to do for the novice. Champions, or FH-lite or SH-lite would give them the basic game.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

No' date=' they have genre specific adaptions of the Rules.[/quote']

 

Examples removed

 

Some Adaptions of the main rules:

Star Hero suggests allowing Sense Powers in a Framework (VPP Specifically) to simulate "adjustable/modifiable sensor arrays, altering the "No Special Powers In A Framework" Rule - but no new rules on how to make such a thing.

 

To me, this is just a recommendation for GM judgement in such cases, as special powers may be placed in a framework "with GM permission".

 

Fantasy Hero introduces the Spell Limitation but states it simply a way to mark campaign ground rules (such as restrictions on the uses of END).

 

Any new limitation can arguably be considered a use of "Limited Power", and therefore not a new rule.

 

Instead of a host of new Rules the genre books suggest ways of using the Rules to create a certain feeling in the game. Tuala Morn states only those with the full Druid Package Deal may learn Druidic Magic. This is a campaign guideline rule' date=' not a system level rule.[/quote']

 

Fantasy Hero and Turakian Age suggest dividing the real cost of spells by 1/3. This is a clear change in the rules. This modification is not, I believe, presented in 5er.

 

I do not want to open my HERO System book to find out that the writer has decided Megascale is only appropriate for Star Hero campaigns and removed it from the System Rules. Or that Persistent is only useful for Champions campaigns and placed it in that book and not the System Rules. Or some other similar arbitrary interpretation of what Powers, Modifiers and Skills belong in which genre.

 

On that note there's also ideas that you just didn't have originally. Usable As Second Mode Of Movement was not in Fifth Edition, but is in Fifth Edition Revised (as it was most commonly seen as Usable Underwater for Flight up to that point). That's a "oh hey, what about this!" moment. You can't fault someone not thinking of everything at the start.

 

I concur with adding new elements as they arise. However, I also think they need to be integrated into the prior rules. Two expamples. 5er should, in my view, have presented the "Damage Shield Built with Trigger" option, and 6th should choose one of the two models as the correct approach.

 

When Fantasy Hero introduced reduced reuse times for healing, the costs should have been designed to incorporate this advantage into Regeneration, ideally without changing the cost of regeneration. [There is already an intrinsic advantage for this built into the costing, as Regen is costed as if each 1 BOD were a full d6 of Healing, but 1d6 Standard Effect is 3 character points, and 1 BOD is only 2.] 5er should then have used this revised construct for Regeneration.

 

But splitting out already existing Rules and System Elements into genre defined categories? Immensely bad idea.

 

Yer there are, already, rules presented outside the core rules, in the genre books (Piercing, for example) and in the Ultimate books (the rules for building martial maneuvers and for ranged martial arts being significant examples which could have been added to 5er). A perusal of the Rules Questions forum, where Steve regularly points posters to other books which have the rules they are looking for, will highlight other examples, many of which predate 5er.

 

I think many of those suggesting a more streamlined approach are suggesting that the core rules be stripped back, and reduced in size, to present a bare bones game which can be expanded upon in other books. We already have this - the Ultimate books expand upon the core rules. The core rules present martial maneuvers without presenting the manner in which they are constructed, and the Ultimate Martial Artist introduces both the construction rules and numerous new maneuvers, including the entire range package. And, like vehicles, martial arts maneuvers are used in pretty much every genre. The vehicle contruction ruiles are in 5er, but expanded upon in The Ultimate Vehicle, and it would not be hard to envision 5er simply providing some example vehicles, and the rules under which they operate, without presenting the construction rules, leaving these for the Ultimate Vehicle.

 

The only real question is where to set the dividing line. The martial arts rules are about as far to the "separate books to expand on a concept" as we have at present. Applying that logic to other areas would stream down the core rules, and require purchase of "Ultimate" books to expand upon those basic rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I did reply before you edit.

 

And your statement about "now any genre but your interpretation" is actually exactly what I mean by any genre (my idea of Fantasy, your idea of Fantasy and anyone else's idea of Fantasy).

 

Take the idea of costing Powers for Magic. Is that really a new rule or is that simply looking at how to bend the rules to your flavor of magic? I believe the latter.

 

Now - splitting the book out into various different elements as Shnar suggested in his last post - that I could see.

 

Between Character Creation Handbook & Combat Handbook you have pretty much everything. There's some parts missing, but Bases/Vehicles should be dropped into the CCH if you want to make that a "core" book. After that a third book Genre Guide To Hero Games would do the trick.

 

Or we could put the rules for players in one book, the additions for GM's in a second book, and rules for specialized non-player items (maybe including bases, vehicles and automotons) in a third book. Hmmm...has any system ever tried that?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Another thought that I have had, and I seem to remember someone else mentioning (or something like it).

 

Have something that is a bit more robust than sidekick (maybe twice the size) written as sidekick was written, with all the powers, but maybe not all the adders ect - this is the "rulebook" written to be played from, and to learn the system from; written so as to not "scar off" potential buyers - and perhaps do the really fance graphic design that seems so common in the marketplace today - then have a 5ER sized tome that has every little choice and option, written to fully explain every option, and presented as the current rules are presented. Perhaps call it the HERO system Encyclopedia or something. Include in it all the varient rules from the current genre books, and the Ultimate books - those things are left out of the "rulebook".

 

Then when the genre books come out, the include the genre specific rules that the "rulebook" doesn't have, but that the "encyclopedia" does.

 

That would get a "all the rules in one place" for those of us that like them, a full game system for the people that want simplicity.

 

Dunno if it would work, but a thought.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Or we could put the rules for players in one book' date=' the additions for GM's in a second book, and rules for specialized non-player items (maybe including bases, vehicles and automotons) in a third book. Hmmm...has any system ever tried that? [/quote']

 

 

no.. nope... that's not enough.

 

:bmk:

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I think many of those suggesting a more streamlined approach are suggesting that the core rules be stripped back, and reduced in size, to present a bare bones game which can be expanded upon in other books. We already have this - the Ultimate books expand upon the core rules. The core rules present martial maneuvers without presenting the manner in which they are constructed, and the Ultimate Martial Artist introduces both the construction rules and numerous new maneuvers, including the entire range package. And, like vehicles, martial arts maneuvers are used in pretty much every genre. The vehicle contruction ruiles are in 5er, but expanded upon in The Ultimate Vehicle, and it would not be hard to envision 5er simply providing some example vehicles, and the rules under which they operate, without presenting the construction rules, leaving these for the Ultimate Vehicle.

 

The only real question is where to set the dividing line. The martial arts rules are about as far to the "separate books to expand on a concept" as we have at present. Applying that logic to other areas would stream down the core rules, and require purchase of "Ultimate" books to expand upon those basic rules.

 

I like this example, it shows that Hero5 is already a splat book. I would push that Hero6 goes even further. Taking Martial Arts as an example, remove everything in Hero5 out of martial arts except a couple basic moves (i.e. Punch, Kick and Block). Then if you want "utlimate" martial arts, with all the bells and whistles, you pick up the Ultimate Martial Arts, and that has a whole bunch of extra manuevers. Having the basic attack/defense is enough to play in every genre, the rest simply clutters the core rules.

 

-shnar

[nexus]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Personally, I like the set up now. I don't have to buy splat books, or genre books, etc, if I don't want too. I get enough of that kind of forced marketing with white wolf games or most other companies; its a part of what turned me off to GURPS. but its a preference thing. What some call cluttered and unweildly I find useful and flexible enough to use for whatever games I come up with without needing to invest in several other books

[shnar]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Which I wonder, would it be bad to do both? Have a massive tome-book, and also have the split up books?

 

-shnar

[nexus]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

It might be prohibitively expensive for a small company.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I like this example, it shows that Hero5 is already a splat book. I would push that Hero6 goes even further. Taking Martial Arts as an example, remove everything in Hero5 out of martial arts except a couple basic moves (i.e. Punch, Kick and Block). Then if you want "utlimate" martial arts, with all the bells and whistles, you pick up the Ultimate Martial Arts, and that has a whole bunch of extra manuevers. Having the basic attack/defense is enough to play in every genre, the rest simply clutters the core rules.

 

-shnar

 

Yeah, because I want to buy 5 books just to make a game.

 

forget this. I'm just hopeful you have absolutely nothing to do with anything regarding the publication of a possible 6th Edition.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Which I wonder, would it be bad to do both? Have a massive tome-book, and also have the split up books?

 

-shnar

 

I think you are missing the fact that many of us enjoy Hero for it's ability to play any genre, cross genre or mashup genre from the core rules.

 

I can take Hero 5th, and run a trans-world fantasy game that includes a cyberpunk, an old west character, a pulp character, a classic space opera character, and native fantasy characters, without having to own more than one book. In fact I did that under 4th.

 

The rules are in one place. They are universal. No other system does that - and that is one of the selling points of Hero - it allows, and even encourages this - both by having a universal system, and by having the rules in one place.

 

The ability (both the universality and the rules in one place) are among the most important reasons I buy Hero. It fills that niche that no one else is filling. Hero says "PLOP - here are the rules!" then "Oh and here a bunch of other books to help you run your game, but they are just time savers or advice - all you really need are the core rules"

 

As the cover says "Toolkit" - you are talking about taking the tools and spreading them over multiple books. That makes the entire toolkit concept worthless.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

For myself, I would prefer to maintain and even enhance the universality of the core rules, even if that were to mean a multiple-volume core rules set.

 

I would go so far as to suggest the martial arts maneuver design rules should be included in 6e, and any other design rules presently in an Ultimate, Genre or other book.

 

But that means an even bigger book. Shrinking it probably means cutting example uses of the mechanics, making it even less user-friendly. It may be what I would prefer, but is it Hero's best marketting approach?