6th Edition Hero System

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

i'm still very new to 5th edition hero. so i hope they don't change it very soon, just purchased a lot of the books

 

Why i am looking at this thread is because 4th edition D&D was recently announced....which means new books to buy...

 

I would be VERY shocked if a 6th edition came out in the next 5 years.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Hmm. I would've said based on conversations I've had with both that they have no current plans for a 6th edition' date=' although they would not be opposed to it. But they'd have to come up with some pretty compelling reasons to do it. I suppose that just goes to show that everyone interprets conversations through their own filters. Me included. [/quote']Heh... and I would have said that they have no current plans for a 6th edition, but they recognize the economic and evolutionary necessity that a 6th edition must logically come at some point if the line is to stay vital and viable, although they don't anticipate reaching this point in the near future.

I would be VERY shocked if a 6th edition came out in the next 5 years.

Personally (and everyone please understand that this is just my own personal SWAG*' date=' not based on [b']anything[/b] Steve or Darren has said, but just my own hunch) I'd guess that it might come within the next 5 years. (Although I'd be surprised if it was within the next 3 years, and flabbergasted if it was even sooner than that.) If I had to guess a time frame, I'd guess 3 to 5 years from now.

 

Keep in mind (and this may shock some old-timers)... even if a theoretical 6th edition were to come out as soon as 3 years from now, that would mean that there was as much time elapsed between 5th edition and 6th edition, as there was between 1st edition and 4th edition.

 

 

SWAG = Scientific Wild-Assed Guess

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

even if a theoretical 6th edition were to come out as soon as 3 years from now' date=' that would mean that there was as much time elapsed between 5th edition and 6th edition, as there was between 1st edition and [b']4th edition.[/b]

 

 

Yeah, but there was what one year between first and second, and only 2 more years until third. 3 editions in 4 years is kind of small - I see the 1st to 2nd ed like the reprints that Hero does now, cleaned up a little, and upgraded references. It was an errata fix.

[Talon]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

It is actually a loooong time, given that 5th was a relatively minor upgrade.

 

I still remember when I was at a con and saw, unexpectedly, that 4th edition was out. I didn't do much else that con.

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Heh... and I would have said that they have no current plans for a 6th edition, but they recognize the economic and evolutionary necessity that a 6th edition must logically come at some point if the line is to stay vital and viable, although they don't anticipate reaching this point in the near future.

Personally (and everyone please understand that this is just my own personal SWAG*, not based on anything Steve or Darren has said, but just my own hunch) I'd guess that it might come within the next 5 years. (Although I'd be surprised if it was within the next 3 years, and flabbergasted if it was even sooner than that.) If I had to guess a time frame, I'd guess 3 to 5 years from now.

 

Keep in mind (and this may shock some old-timers)... even if a theoretical 6th edition were to come out as soon as 3 years from now, that would mean that there was as much time elapsed between 5th edition and 6th edition, as there was between 1st edition and 4th edition.

 

 

SWAG = Scientific Wild-Assed Guess

 

I did say current plan. Certainly one will come out eventually. I think it is just that they are currently more concerned with getting 5th edition stuff out.

[Foxiekins]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

The only change I'd make is to have Killing Attacks do 1d6 STUN per point of BODY done by the Attack before Defenses... And allow non-resistant PD or ED to apply to the STUN, even without resistant defenses...

 

But again, that's just a tweak...

[bwdemon]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

You know, there were plenty of people way back in 3rd edition who said the game was perfect and never needed another edition. Then 4th edition came out and a some of them complained, but mostly people decided that 4th edition was perfect and HERO would never need another edition. Then 5th edition came out (which wasn't all that different) and the same sort of thing happened. Then 5th edition revision came out (which was even less different) and it's still the greatest blah blah never need blah blah.

 

When 6th edition comes out (and it will), it'll be the greatest edition of HERO ever and we'll never need a 7th edition. Well, until 7th edition comes out, whereupon the 7th edition will be... etc.

 

For me, like I said before, many things have been broken/unnecessary since the game's inception. Until they're actually fixed, HERO will never be perfect.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

You know, there were plenty of people way back in 3rd edition who said the game was perfect and never needed another edition. Then 4th edition came out and a some of them complained, but mostly people decided that 4th edition was perfect and HERO would never need another edition. Then 5th edition came out (which wasn't all that different) and the same sort of thing happened. Then 5th edition revision came out (which was even less different) and it's still the greatest blah blah never need blah blah.

 

When 6th edition comes out (and it will), it'll be the greatest edition of HERO ever and we'll never need a 7th edition. Well, until 7th edition comes out, whereupon the 7th edition will be... etc.

 

For me, like I said before, many things have been broken/unnecessary since the game's inception. Until they're actually fixed, HERO will never be perfect.

 

I've seen 14th Edition. Now THAT will be absolute perfection.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Can I get a summary? Because all I'm seeing (other than my own *haaah haaah nail buff on shirt* brilliant comments are in fact, tweaks. So what real "changes" do y'all want? I mean CHANGES. Although, on my planet, it's possible that I'll see it all as tweaks.

[Foxiekins]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Can I get a summary? Because all I'm seeing (other than my own *haaah haaah nail buff on shirt* brilliant comments are in fact' date=' tweaks. So what real "changes" do y'all want? I mean CHANGES. Although, on my planet, it's possible that I'll see it all as tweaks.[/quote']

 

Major Change...? Okay, how about making all rolls higher is better... I know someone who refuses to touch Hero System because higher damage is better, but with 3d6 rolls lower is better...

 

Statistically, rolling 11 or less is identical to rolling 10 or more on 3d6... Anyone attacking could just roll the 3d6, and add their OCV... Compare the result to 10 plus DCV to see if you hit... For Skill Rolls, you'd just need a modifier to the 3d6 roll... +0 for 11-, +1 for 12-, etcetera... An 8- would be a -3 mod... Roll against a target of 10, modified for difficulty...

 

The only thing that would fluctuate, that players would have to worry about, would be their 10 plus DCV target...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Major Change...? Okay' date=' how about making all rolls higher is better... I know someone who refuses to touch Hero System because higher damage is better, but with 3d6 rolls lower is better...[/quote']

 

To me, that ranks only marginally ahead of "I won't play it because the cover is the wrong colour". The statistical odds are identical, as you note. I would point out that, with some rolls needing to be high and others wanting to be low, one rarely has a problem with dice whose results seem less than random. And people make those for "those other games" where rolling high on 3d6 equates to a more powerful character.

 

An "optional rule" on how to make rolling higher the norm would seem easy to add without making any major changes to the game. So would switching to "higher is better? with an optional rule for the traditional approach.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

To me' date=' that ranks only marginally ahead of "I won't play it because the cover is the wrong colour".[/quote']I agree. I've never had much sympathy for this argument. The HERO System only has two basic dice-rolling mechanics:

1. To determine succeed/fail, roll 3d6 and roll low.
   
2. To determine amount of effect, roll the number of effect dice and roll high.

Are there really people out there who can't remember two things? Seriously? Two? It's not like first edition AD&D where virtually every rule was its own dice rolling mechanic. It's just two...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I agree. I've never had much sympathy for this argument. The HERO System only has two basic dice-rolling mechanics:

1. To determine succeed/fail, roll 3d6 and roll low.
   
2. To determine amount of effect, roll the number of effect dice and roll high.

Are there really people out there who can't remember two things? Seriously? Two? It's not like first edition AD&D where virtually every rule was its own dice rolling mechanic. It's just two...

 

Well, it's a little more complex than that, but not much.

 

Sure, roll 3d6 and get low. But there's two separate ways for determine a target number (one is 11 + DEX/3 - DEX/3, the other is 9 + CHA/5). And there's two ways for determining just damage, one of which requires counting dice two different ways and another that involves multiplication; there's another dice mechanic entirely for things like Mental Powers and Presence Attacks. And once you've determined damage, you've got subtraction of defenses from two different numbers, determining damage effects for Body and Stun....

 

Oh, wait. It is pretty complex after all.

 

But if we changed it, it wouldn't be Hero.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Sure' date=' roll 3d6 and get low. But there's two separate ways for determine a target number (one is 11 + DEX/3 - DEX/3, the other is 9 + CHA/5).[/quote']There might be more than one way of determining the target number in a roll-high system too. From the player's perspective, it's still just "roll 3d6 and roll low."

And there's two ways for determining just damage' date=' one of which requires counting dice two different ways and another that involves multiplication;[/quote']But in both of those cases, you're rolling the effect dice and rolling high.

there's another dice mechanic entirely for things like Mental Powers and Presence Attacks.

A different dice mechanic? You're still rolling effect dice and rolling high.

And once you've determined damage' date=' you've got subtraction of defenses from two different numbers, determining damage effects for Body and Stun....[/quote']Which aren't dice rolls.

Oh' date=' wait. It is pretty complex after all. But if we changed it, it wouldn't be Hero.[/quote']I would never argue that Hero isn't complex. I'm just saying that I don't buy the argument that two dice rolling mechanics are vastly more confusing than one dice rolling mechanic.

 

 

Logically, it could only be a maximum of twice as complex, right?

[Talon]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

There might be more than one way of determining the target number in a roll-high system too. From the player's perspective, it's still just "roll 3d6 and roll low."

 

...

 

But in both of those cases, you're rolling the effect dice and rolling high.

 

From a non-Hero player's perspective, combat numbers are written as OCV & modifiers, while skills are a roll (13-, etc.) plus modifiers. Why don't you have "Sword 14-"?

 

Two different mechanics for adding damage (normal or killing), sure they are both "roll high", but who cares? They are different.

[Bygoneyrs]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

As with all things, time brings changes. I for one leaving D&Dv3.5 for Hero's v5...main reason is I refuse to buy another version of D&D v4. With Fantasy Hero, I can convert my D&D campaign over. Also add in Traveller/Star Hero, I can convert my Traveller campaign too. I hope and pray that the Hero System doesn't come up with a Hero v6, and then makes it so all earlier systems books are useless. If that were to happen, I might just quit gaming!

 

Penn

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

sure they are both "roll high"' date=' but who cares? They are different.[/quote']The person Foxiekins was talking about cares. They refuse to touch Hero solely because sometimes you want to roll high, and other times you want to roll low. That's all I'm talking about. I'm saying that specific objection means little to me.

 

Yes, some of the "roll low" attempts are calculated differently, and some of the roll high attempts are calculated differently. I'm not talking about that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

From a non-Hero player's perspective, combat numbers are written as OCV & modifiers, while skills are a roll (13-, etc.) plus modifiers. Why don't you have "Sword 14-"?

 

Two different mechanics for adding damage (normal or killing), sure they are both "roll high", but who cares? They are different.

 

My character sheet says "Swing Fist 15-; Martial Strike 13-; etc..."

 

But you know I'm crazy and did the math BEFORE the session started.

 

And there's still only One Rolling Mechanic (roll high).

 

There are numerous effects based on what you're doing, but that doesn't mean it's a different Rolling Mechanic.

 

Separate the idea of "What I want to roll" and "How I apply it" and you realize Hero has two ways to roll dice.

 

And the whole dice thing - not buying it as an issue. Just got done with a DnD Sessions (v3) and we had a ten minute discussion as we added all the modifiers from various effects all up to get a net result of "0" - yay! The same thing happens in Hero sometimes.

 

It's dice. It's numbers.

 

At least it's not THAC0.

(now there's a reason to not play a game)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Chris is right even though he didn't correctly identify the other dice-rolling mechanic. There is a third one: Knockback: a variable number of dice, with a base of two, and your roll low for maximum effect.

 

As with all things, time brings changes. I for one leaving D&Dv3.5 for Hero's v5...main reason is I refuse to buy another version of D&D v4. With Fantasy Hero, I can convert my D&D campaign over. Also add in Traveller/Star Hero, I can convert my Traveller campaign too. I hope and pray that the Hero System doesn't come up with a Hero v6, and then makes it so all earlier systems books are useless. If that were to happen, I might just quit gaming!

 

Penn

But there's an important difference there. All the versions of HERO are about 99% compatible with each other. You can easily play 5th Edition HERO using 4th edition books. Only a few minor changes are needed, and they're easy to look up. If and when a 6th edition comes out, it will *have* to be almost exactly the same in the rules and crunchy bits because otherwise, the die-hard fan base won't buy it. (Dare I mention the F word?)

 

In D&D, 1st and 2nd edition books are almost completely useless if you want to play a 3rd edition game. And even the 3.0 books are obsolete in many places in a 3.5 game. There were even important rules changes made within the same edition (1st PHB and 1st UA, for example).

 

The changes between any two consecutive versions of D&D have been far greater than the changes made between 1st edition HERO and 5th-revised. Any two HERO products *ever* are at least 90% compatible.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Right... so keeping with that theme, and other than my own previously mentioned comments, then what, should I ask, are the real CHANGES?

 

I'm not playing a company line, I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. 33 pages of "Well, I'd like this," but no one has identified an actual glaring flaw that can't be EASILY house ruled or is something that they personally wanted changed for minimal reason. So... where's the beef?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I have a feeling subsequent versions of the rules will simply be a matter of reinterpreting existing rules to meet the vocal minorities desires.

 

There's not a lot of places for the rules to go as rules. Merely lots of little details people like to harp on.

[Talon]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

The beef is not rules changes so much as usability. There are many changes which would not really change Hero at its core, but which would make the game much more presentable to new players.

 

For example, making figured characteristics non-figured; wouldn't really change Hero much, but would remove a LOT of math.

 

Or take the "Advantages for Multipower Reserves" section, 5ER p. 319. This section takes a lot of space to say "you can do this, here's how you would do this, but you probably shouldn't do this -- in fact, it's better not to do this". Though it conveys information accurately, it does so inefficiently.

 

Or take character sheets. Why should the PER roll, one of the most important and commonly used rolls, be hidden near the INT stat? Why should DCV based on DEX be listed in one place, with "actual DCV" (say, with size modifiers included) not listed anywhere?

 

None of this is really changing Hero in a significant sense, but it would all make the system a lot more accessible.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I hate the "Math" argument.

 

New Players - ALL Players - need to figure out that Math is not the enemy, addition, subtraction and multiplication will not hurt you.

 

It's a stigma that's needless, senseless and really is a poor excuse for not doing things.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

For example' date=' making figured characteristics non-figured; wouldn't really change Hero much, but would remove a LOT of math.[/quote']

I'd say it would remove a *tiny* amount of math - a small part of the math which is done once only, at character creation time, and never comes up in play at all.

 

Or take character sheets. Why should the PER roll, one of the most important and commonly used rolls, be hidden near the INT stat? Why should DCV based on DEX be listed in one place, with "actual DCV" (say, with size modifiers included) not listed anywhere?

That depends whose character sheets you're using. Mine don't have these problems.

[Talon]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'd say it would remove a *tiny* amount of math - a small part of the math which is done once only' date=' at character creation time, and never comes up in play at all.[/quote']

 

Exactly the reason to get rid of it.

 

That depends whose character sheets you're using. Mine don't have these problems.

 

Well, I was thinking the character sheets that come with the book and which all supplements use. Which is my point: changing the character sheet doesn't require changing the rules, but does help the game.