Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Dittmarsch, Ditmarsch, Dithmarsch are all orthographic possibilities for contemporary German. Adding the "en" at the end either pluralises it or (I think, cuz I'm too lazy to look up my list of case endings) can be a genitive that's been incorporated in the word by traditional usage. I take it as the latter, having had more than one argument over endings in weird 17th century German names and placenames.

Wikipedia cites it in a crapulous article on "village communities" lifted from the 11th ed. of the Encyclopaedia Brittanica, but, oddly enough, omits the actual article, s.v. Dithmarschen. "A territory between the Eider, Elbe and the North Sea, forming the western part of the old ducy of Holstein.... about 550 sq miles including 90,000 inhabitants [in 1909]," all coastal marshland, some of which was reclaimed, some not.

Like many similar communities its independence was rooted in the competing claims of local potentates like the Archbishop of Bremen and his rival, the King of Denmark. The territory was divided into four "Marks" and governed by a Landrat of 48 elective "consuls." Dittmarsch defeated several invasions by the Duke of Holstein [politics in this corner of Europe are nothing if not complicated] during the early 1500s --cue heroic peasants waging guerilla war from their marshy fastness-- before sad reality triumphed.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Stupid sad reality, it needs to just take a nap for a few millenia!

 

umm... nothing to add

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Of course places were stable without any government at all. Saga period iceland was peaceful and prosperous without any actually enforcing State law for 290 years. Disputes were solved with a kind of privatised law enforcement and judicary. It lasted longer than the United States has with less change in it's system and can thus be described as "more sucessful" than modern republics.

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Iceland/Iceland.html

 

Prosperous, maybe, but peaceful? The idea I get from the Sagas is that half the population was usually trying to murder the other half.

 

And didn't they have a problem with enforcing the decisions passed by the judiciary? Or so I recall, anyway.

[assault]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Prosperous' date=' maybe, but peaceful? The idea I get from the Sagas is that half the population was usually trying to murder the other half. [/quote']

 

Perhaps you should reread your own sentence.

 

"The idea I get from TV is that half the population is usually trying to murder the other half."

 

Blood feuds probably wouldn't have been all that common.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Perhaps you should reread your own sentence.

 

"The idea I get from TV is that half the population is usually trying to murder the other half."

 

Blood feuds probably wouldn't have been all that common.

 

Well, I ciould have been more careful, but the image I get from my own reading is that Saga-age Iceland was often a very violent society. Interestingly, much the same can be said for the Russian cossacks and the Carribbean pirates - all very democratic and very violent societies. I wonder sometimes if there's a connection between the freedom and the mayhem or not.

[assault]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Well' date=' I ciould have been more careful, but the image I get from my own reading is that Saga-age Iceland was often a very violent society. Interestingly, much the same can be said for the Russian cossacks and the Carribbean pirates - all very democratic and very violent societies. I wonder sometimes if there's a connection between the freedom and the mayhem or not.[/quote']

 

Just because it wasn't as violent as it was in the sagas doesn't mean it wasn't violent, of course.

 

I think it would be possible to find rather violent societies that weren't particularly free, though.

[tkdguy]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Offhand, TSR's Mystara (aka Known World) had the Republic of Darokin, although it's more of a plutocracy than a democracy.

 

ICE's non-canon Middle-earth expansion The Court of Ardor briefly describes a republic south of Harad.

 

I'm not sure if the Forgotten Realms' Sembia is actually a republic or not; I'll get back to you on that. It seems more like Toril's counterpart to Darokin.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

On the fiction front, the Recluse Saga by L. E. Modesitt Jr. and The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind both feature good guy goverments that are more or less democratic, from what we get to see, anyway.

[Vondy]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

I would point out that much of the information available on the internet on many pre-Christian, pre-feudal Indo-European cultures has not been academically vetted and contains not only a heavy dose of ethnocentrism rooted both in internal cultural mythology (which amount to intellectual blinders), but also an agenda - sometimes intentional, sometimes subconscious - that results in white washing.

 

This is especially true in terms of many sites presenting information on the Celts, Zoastrian Persians, Scottish Clan System, and Nordic social paradigms; as well as a movement in India pertaining to the pre-Vedic Indus valley civilization. There are motives in play that do not lend themselves to intellectual honesty, and the claims made on these sites, as well as certain scholars who are proponents of these theories, must be taken with a spoonful of salt. Its in vogue to belittle and criticize western culture these days, and to attempt to discredit its innovations and accomplishments, and promoting other cultures as more ideal is a part of this trend.

 

An honest evaluation will reveal all cultures have had problems (often the same problems), and that most pre-christian, pre-medieval, or non-western societies were far from idyllic. They had good points and bad points, just as western culture does; they had innovations (often the same innovations occurring in different places and different times without outside influence - some concepts are basic); but they weren't the dreamy utopia's many people make them out to be. Life tended to be nasty, brutish, and short. It was that way for everyone.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Uh, what Von D-Man said. Except that academic vetting doesn't mean that it is any better. Give a person a degree and an impressive writing style and he can still proceed to make up what they please, especially when "Indo-Europeans" cast their pixie dust over the writer. Anyone else read Arvid Steffanson on _Aryan Idols_?

If you're interested in what strong academic writers have to say about the nature of early states, I recommend Norman Yoffee, _Myths of the Archaic State_, and, less readable but more rewarding, Adam T. Smith, _The Political Landscape_.

In short, there's no reason that you can't put a "primitive democracy" in your setting, but there _is_ reason to think that it will look like a particularly strife-torn place.

Latest literature also suggests good reason to be cautious about using ancient Athens as a model, too. This "democracy" may be a projection on the past by writers of the next century.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Just because it wasn't as violent as it was in the sagas doesn't mean it wasn't violent, of course.

 

I think it would be possible to find rather violent societies that weren't particularly free, though.

 

Yes, I agree with you 100%, but wouldn't that violence be almost exclusively directed outwards at the 'other', rather than internal violence between various individuals and groups (clans, tribes, etc.) within the society? To me at least, one hallmark of an absolute or dictatorial government is that it will do everything in its power to control violence and the means of inflicting it on others. Kinda hard to stay in power, else.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Cut for brevity:

 

This is especially true in terms of many sites presenting information on the... Zoastrian Persians...

 

Why, what criticisms are people airing about the Zoroastrian/pre-Islamic Persians? I used to read about them with the idea of creating a Fantasy culture based along Sassanid lines, and I've been interested in them ever since.

 

And I agree with everything else you said about blinders and some of the nonsense you can get in both academic and non-academic circles.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Well' date=' I ciould have been more careful, but the image I get from my own reading is that Saga-age Iceland was often a very violent society. Interestingly, much the same can be said for the Russian cossacks and the Carribbean pirates - all very democratic and very violent societies. I wonder sometimes if there's a connection between the freedom and the mayhem or not.[/quote']

There's a recently released book titled "The Republic of Pirates" I want to get that appears to discuss the Carribbean pirates in the height of their power, as it were... a fairly short window in time.

[assault]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Yes' date=' I agree with you 100%, but wouldn't that violence be almost exclusively directed outwards at the 'other', rather than internal violence between various individuals and groups (clans, tribes, etc.) within the society? To me at least, one hallmark of an absolute or dictatorial government is that it will do everything in its power to control violence and the means of inflicting it on others. Kinda hard to stay in power, else.[/quote']

 

Get in your time machine and take a walk around the streets of ancient Rome at night.

 

I think in general the degree of success in "controlling violence" achieved by most ancient states would have to be regarded as limited. In many, many cases, they were little more than a ruling faction glued on top of whatever chaos had previously existed.

 

In particular, many (most?) areas had their own local elites, who were both armed and willing to use those arms in their own conflicts. Furthermore, banditry was a rather common practice in many places and periods.

 

The Roman success in clearing the pirates from the Mediterranean was remarkable by any standards. But as I suggested above, this didn't make Roman society violence-free.

[Kristopher]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Get in your time machine and take a walk around the streets of ancient Rome at night.

 

BTW, should anyone with an actual time machine be reading this, I recommend against that, unless you're willing to contaminate the past with lots of bullets, or your own dead body.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

There's a recently released book titled "The Republic of Pirates" I want to get that appears to discuss the Carribbean pirates in the height of their power' date=' as it were... a fairly short window in time.[/quote']

 

Thanks for mentioning it; I'll try and find it somewhere.

 

And yes, a short period of time -- what, from the mid-17th century (about 1660 or so) to 1725 or so, I think?

[Vondy]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Cut for brevity:

 

 

 

Why, what criticisms are people airing about the Zoroastrian/pre-Islamic Persians? I used to read about them with the idea of creating a Fantasy culture based along Sassanid lines, and I've been interested in them ever since.

 

And I agree with everything else you said about blinders and some of the nonsense you can get in both academic and non-academic circles.

 

Its not criticisms about them, its criticisms of a school of thought (I use the term "thought" loosely) of demi-scholars who pretty much assert that "the Zoastrians invested everything," especially in terms of western religion. A lot of it is just plain nonsense. They tend to put up web-sites, write articles on wikipedia, and publish books that have just enough fact to convince those who don't know any better while being filled with false and misleading information. The same is true of the movement I mentioned pertaining to the pre-vedic Indus Valley Civilization. Many of these books are flatly rejected by an overwhelming majority of academics from across the spectrum in terms of politics/beliefs/whatnot due to what amounts to shoddy or just downright dishonest scholarship. I wrote a post about this before. I'll see if I can find it for you.

[Vondy]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Get in your time machine and take a walk around the streets of ancient Rome at night.

 

At night? There were neighborhoods you didn't walk in during the day without an armed escort!

[Vondy]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

I wrote a post about this before. I'll see if I can find it for you.

 

Here are two posts where I've commented on this:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1180885&postcount=41

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1207186&postcount=31

 

If you want more information we can take this "out of forum."

[Sociotard]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

At night? There were neighborhoods you didn't walk in during the day without an armed escort!

Besides the senate building?

[Bismark]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

Cut for brevity:

 

 

 

Why, what criticisms are people airing about the Zoroastrian/pre-Islamic Persians? I used to read about them with the idea of creating a Fantasy culture based along Sassanid lines, and I've been interested in them ever since.

 

And I agree with everything else you said about blinders and some of the nonsense you can get in both academic and non-academic circles.

 

Warning: Temporary thread derail and slightly rambling post

 

A distinction has to be drawn between the Achaemenid and Sassanian Persians regarding their approach to religion. Although both Zoroastrian, the former were far more tolerant of other religions than the latter, who had been traumatized by 600 years of foreign rule (first Seleucid, then Parthian) and had added an unhealthy dose of nationalistic zeal to their religion. They even wrote the previous 600 years out of their history, conveniently confusing Philip of Macedon with the Roman Emperor Philip the Arab. The Sassanians also promoted the Nestorian Heresy as a way of limiting the eastward expansion of the Roman Church. On the other hand, they are rather cool (from a wargamer's perspective) and more recent info on them is revealing why they were a serious rival to the Romans (unlike their Parthian predecessors, they actually had competent infantry as well as nasty cavalry).

 

I used a variant of Sassanian Persia (with bit of Samanid dynasty Islamic Persian thrown in) as the basis for the Hargeshite Empire of Vashkor in my Turakian Age campaign a while back.

 

 

[sort of] back on topic:

 

Even in its good days, Athens was (like Rome) not a safe place to walk around at night (or even in the daytime if you were female and did not have an escort).

 

Something to bear in mind even about democratic societies is the nature of law enforcement. To use the Athenian model again, foreign barbarians (including long-haired scary Scythians) were often used as police because they were regarded as less corrupt than the locals.

 

As regards other forms of violence in fairly democratic societies, the (pre-Northern Crusades) Estonian model was 'interesting'. The legal system was a bit scary - sneaky crimes were not allowed, but face-to-face fights which resulted in the death of one party were perfectly OK - a weak man had no right to his life or property.

 

Hope this helps a little.

[assault]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

(unlike their Parthian predecessors' date=' they actually had competent infantry as well as nasty cavalry).[/quote']

 

My impression is that Parthian infantry were actually considerably more competent and numerous than they are often portrayed.

 

While there were occasions when they fielded all cavalry armies, they could also draw upon troops from numerous cities, as well as Arab, Armenian and other allies. They weren't exactly useless in siege warfare either, which more or less implies the presence of infantry.

 

Granted, they didn't have any infantry that could match Seleucid phalanxes or Roman legions, but few armies of the time did.

[Bismark]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

My impression is that Parthian infantry were actually considerably more competent and numerous than they are often portrayed.

 

While there were occasions when they fielded all cavalry armies, they could also draw upon troops from numerous cities, as well as Arab, Armenian and other allies. They weren't exactly useless in siege warfare either, which more or less implies the presence of infantry.

 

Granted, they didn't have any infantry that could match Seleucid phalanxes or Roman legions, but few armies of the time did.

 

Depends on the definition of 'competent', really, although the Mesopotamian cities could provide some reasonable infantry, they were mainly for the defence of those cities rather than components of Parthian armies invading Roman territory.

 

I did not mention the Armenian allies as they were also available to the Sassanids (when they weren't flip-flopping their allegiance between Persia and Rome - something they were -ahem! - notorious for). The improvements under the Sassanid regime include trained regular archer units (some mail-armoured), the use of Dailami troops for more than skirmishing (i.e. giving them mail and turning them into the Royal Guard). Even the infamously bad levies (paighan) were useful for siege warfare.

 

[Just as a side-note, my current wargaming army is the 'Little Kushan' - the combination of Kushan Empire troops and the Chionite/Kidarite 'Huns' that intermittently warred with the Sassanids before getting overrun by the Hephthalites; it's fun mixing cataphracts and frothing Hun-style cavalry…]

 

Back on topic , you could try something similar to the republican states of northern India at about the time of the Macedonian conquest (these were of course still affected by the dreaded caste structure, but less so than the kingdoms to the south of them,as the Vedic influence was diluted by Iranian influences). These could be made more 'democratic' in the modern sense of the term without too much of a stretch of the imagination.

[Clonus]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

There are two basic problems with creating a genuinely democratic republic in a low-tech fantasy environment. The first is a lack of a publishing industry, meaning that the bulk of a large population will be uninformed and very probably illiterate. This can be gotten around by having your community be so small that people don't need books and newspapers to learn what's going one but in such a community there's not much need for representative. You can probably stick with a townhall democracy unless the population are simply too apathetic to concern themselves with public affairs. Most historical representave republics were in fact oligarchies, often with strong plutocratic elements.

 

The second and probably worse problem is that, in the absence of generally distributed effective weapons any idiot can be dangerous with, even against a pro, and the absence of the requirement for an elaborate working logistical structure to keep the professionals supplied with things like ammo and fuel, there is a much greater power imbalance between the warrior class and the noncombatants. The introduction of magic only worsens this problem. Whether it's the superhuman warriors and magicians of Exalted and D&D, or even just the Hero and GURPs characters wearing OAFs and gadgets that boost their DR, a small force of professionals can sweep away a positive horde of normal poor men. Egalitarianism only works when people really can meet on more or less equal terms.

 

That being said, I do have an idea of a nation reigned over by a sub-society of magicians who, being fully occupied in their magical studies most of the time, let their subjects elect representatives who actually run the place.

[assault]

Re: Democratic Republics in Fantasy Worlds?

 

You can probably stick with a townhall democracy

 

Fine by me. That covers Athens, during the period when its "empire" was at its height.

 

The second and probably worse problem is that, in the absence of generally distributed effective weapons any idiot can be dangerous with, even against a pro,

 

I can't think of there ever having been a period in history when that wasn't the case.

 

The weapons you are talking about are spears, pikes and polearms, all of which are just fine for dealing with "professionals".

 

Of course a fantasy world can feature superhumanly capable warriors, but that isn't necessarily the case. Cases where it is need to be examined concretely.