OIHID and/or Focus

[Kristopher]

I recall at least some of my fellow posters being opposed to the idea of using Only in Hero ID and Focus on the same power. Could someone(s) give me a summary of the arguments against that combination? (And heck, arguments in favor of allowing it would be good too.) I can kinda see both sides of it.

 

 

 

PS: Civil is good. Uncivil would be very, very bad.

[Nolgroth]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

I don't see how they couldn't be combined. I seriously doubt all of Batman's gadgets cannot be taken away from him (Focus), but as I recall, he only uses them as Batman (OiHID). Mind you, I'm not a big comic book reader, so I may not have all the info on this particular occurence.

 

I never really liked OiHID anyway. I would almost always use Multiform in its place. Form 1: Tony Stark. Form 2: Iron Man. Form 1: The skinny guy with the cane. Form 2: Thor. Form 1: Bruce Banner. Form 2: Hulk.

 

The only thing I can really see using OiHID for would be something like Batman's armor. You can't easily take it away from him so it doesn't necessarily fall under the Focus rules and he indeed only wears it in Batman mode.

[Kristopher]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

"Whether it can be easily taken away" falls under the accessible/inaccessible axis, though, doesn't it?

[Nolgroth]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

"Whether it can be easily taken away" falls under the accessible/inaccessible axis' date=' though, doesn't it?[/quote']Accessible = Taken away with Grab. Inaccessible=Can be removed in 1 Turn out of Combat. If you think ol' Batboy's suit can be removed in 12 seconds, the Obvious Inaccessible Focus is the way to go. It's a greater Limitation, but also accounts for the fact that the armor can be damaged/destroyed. You won't hear any complaints from me.

[OddHat]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

I'm not entirely opposed to using them, but I'd have to ask how meaningful the combination actually is.

 

If Armor Man has purchased his armor as an OIF, does adding OIHID actually, meaningfully limit the power any more? If not, then no, the two don't stack, or at most OIHID is a -0 limit that won't come up.

 

If Muscular Swordsman can't even lift his magic sword in his civilian ID as Irwin Floppy, I'd allow him both OIHID for his extra Characteristics, but again I'd have to think of a reason why an OIHID OAF for the sword was actually more limiting than a plain vanilla OAF for the sword. Still, I might possibly consider it, especially in a setting where carrying a sword around would otherwise make sense for Irwin.

[Scott Baker]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

I recall at least some of my fellow posters being opposed to the idea of using Only in Hero ID and Focus on the same power. Could someone(s) give me a summary of the arguments against that combination? (And heck' date=' arguments in favor of allowing it would be good too.) I can kinda see both sides of it. [/quote']

 

There is the built-in warning in the 5ER description that states, "A power usually cannot take both OIHID and a FocusLimitation." To me it feels a little like double-dipping. If a player can come up with a good rationale, I would certainly consider it.

"Whether it can be easily taken away" falls under the accessible/inaccessible axis' date=' though, doesn't it?[/quote']

 

I would agree with this.

 

Scott Baker

[caris]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

"Whether it can be easily taken away" falls under the accessible/inaccessible axis' date=' though, doesn't it?[/quote']

 

Yes and no. OIHID was at one time put forth as a way to do foci that were just never taken away, particularly power armor. The character doesn't have access to the power all the time and does have to go through some hoops to achieve their HID, but they never loose the focus. It is never damaged, etc. It is sort of a setting convention.

 

For another example of a "focus" that does not use the Focus limitation looking at the 5th ed Dr. Destroyer in CKC.

[Trebuchet]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

It's really a balance issue. There's a reason the rules say not to allow both OIHID and foci.

 

I can see reasons to allow both on the same character as long as they're not applied to the same powers. A focus that is only usable in heroic form is more properly part of the Disadvantage of Secret Identity.

[Nolgroth]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

Yes and no. OIHID was at one time put forth as a way to do foci that were just never taken away, particularly power armor. The character doesn't have access to the power all the time and does have to go through some hoops to achieve their HID, but they never loose the focus. It is never damaged, etc. It is sort of a setting convention.

 

For another example of a "focus" that does not use the Focus limitation looking at the 5th ed Dr. Destroyer in CKC.

My one and only complaint about using OiHID to simulate a Focus is that it has no rules for breakage. I suppose you could just make it OiHID with the Physical Manifestation rules to go along. Essentially it then becomes a Obvious, Inaccessible Focus that can't be removed at all. For the same value. The good news is that it can still be broken that way. Appropriate for something like powered armor or a symbiote suit I suppose.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

My one and only complaint about using OiHID to simulate a Focus is that it has no rules for breakage. I suppose you could just make it OiHID with the Physical Manifestation rules to go along. Essentially it then becomes a Obvious' date=' Inaccessible Focus that can't be removed at all. For the same value. The good news is that it can still be broken that way. Appropriate for something like powered armor or a symbiote suit I suppose.[/quote']

 

If it's magical and can't be broken OIHID makes sense. It's mostly useful on focii like objects in Superheroic Games, not so much in Heroic Games.

[Trebuchet]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

IIRC OIHID was originally a sub-set of Focus anyway, but was split off into a separate Limitation for Fifth Edition.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

IIRC OIHID was originally a sub-set of Focus anyway' date=' but was split off into a separate Limitation for Fifth Edition.[/quote']

 

No - it was a seperate Limitation in 4E too.

 

4E notes that OIHID is not usually used in Heroic Games, and that OIHID can be used to simulate someone who appears to have a Focus, but it is never lost or removed.

[Nolgroth]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

If it's magical and can't be broken OIHID makes sense. It's mostly useful on focii like objects in Superheroic Games' date=' not so much in Heroic Games.[/quote']Bah humbug!

[JmOz]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

I kind of look at it as a part of foci, to use the swordsman example I would allow him to buy his sword as a -3/4 limitation OAF, plus the -1/4 OIHID

[Kristopher]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

I kind of look at it as a part of foci' date=' to use the swordsman example I would allow him to buy his sword as a -3/4 limitation OAF, plus the -1/4 OIHID[/quote']

 

Isn't OAF a -1 Limitation?

[Trebuchet]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

Isn't OAF a -1 Limitation?

Yes. But OTOH, if the OAF is only available in Hero ID then it can't be taken when the hero is in his secret ID so it should be worth less.

[Clonus]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

I recall at least some of my fellow posters being opposed to the idea of using Only in Hero ID and Focus on the same power. .

 

It's redundant. You already got points for the focus being something you occasionally wouldn't have to hand.

[sinanju]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

I'm not entirely opposed to using them, but I'd have to ask how meaningful the combination actually is.

 

If Armor Man has purchased his armor as an OIF, does adding OIHID actually, meaningfully limit the power any more? If not, then no, the two don't stack, or at most OIHID is a -0 limit that won't come up.

 

Yeah, I tend to view OiHID as a more extreme version of OAF.

 

Magic necklace: OAF -- it can be snatched away with a grab attack in combat.

 

Magic belt: OIF -- It can't be grabbed in combat, but once the hero is helpless, either unconscious or bound, you can remove it very quickly.

 

Iron Man Armor: OiHD -- It takes several turns (minimum, more like several minutes) to get into or out of the armor. It's not a "focus" because it can't be quickly and easily removed, but without the armor Tony is just a normal human. So...Hero ID Only applies.

[caris]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

If it's magical and can't be broken OIHID makes sense. It's mostly useful on focii like objects in Superheroic Games' date=' not so much in Heroic Games.[/quote']

 

Well, we are back to the convention of the game. It doesn't have to be "magical" to be can't be broken. It only means that it never comes up in play as a problem. The focus is just never subjected to enough damage to break it. Once again, we are back to Dr. Destroyer's armor is "unbreakable" and is certainly not magical.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

Well' date=' we are back to the convention of the game. It doesn't have to be "magical" to be can't be broken. It only means that it never comes up in play as a problem. The focus is just never subjected to enough damage to break it. Once again, we are back to Dr. Destroyer's armor is "unbreakable" and is certainly not magical.[/quote']

 

I pulled a specific SFX (probably a bad idea) but I know Nolgroth plays mostly Heroic Games so I used an SFX he would be more familiar with.

 

There are plenty of things I can think of for OIHID that make sense where the capabilities of the object to resist damage are moot.

[mikesama]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

My quick rule of thumb for each

 

OIF: Powered armor: Iron Man

 

OHID: Same guy with more power: Captain Marvel (DC)

 

Multi Form: Changes in more than just power level: Hulk

[Clonus]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

Iron Man Armor: OiHD -- It takes several turns (minimum, more like several minutes) to get into or out of the armor. It's not a "focus" because it can't be quickly and easily removed, but without the armor Tony is just a normal human. So...Hero ID Only applies.

 

On the other hand if the armour can be damaged, then it's still a focus.

[Gideon]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

I agree that for the most part it is simply a game balance issue. For most characters having one negates the need (or reason) to have the other.

 

Now that doesn't mean a character can't have both, it just means that the GM needs to think long and hard about the character's build and decide if combining Focus and OIHID for that character breaks things.

 

A while back I actually had an idea for a character that was going to have both. The idea was that the character wore a pendant that transformed her into her Heroic Identity. The pendant was considered a focus, and the character's instant change was bought with OIF (the character actually had to hold the pendant and use a Green Lantern style mantra to transform).

 

The pendant would transform with her to become a big staff that she used for most of her attacks, so those powers were bought with OIF also. However her increased stats, force field and flight (along with a couple of other minor powers) were purchased with OIHID because she didn't need to be holding the staff to use them.

 

The GM for the game was intially very weary of the concept until I made it clear to him that my intention was to not have any one power with both limitations.

 

And yes it is true that I could have probably made the character simpler by using Multiform, but I don't like the power, and was trying to avoid using it.

[Kristopher]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

As I understand it (book on loan), OiHID is not just about "Only When The Character Can Be Recognized As His Hero ID Instantly", but is instead about there being a significant change in the character himself that must take place before he can use his powers?

 

Examples:

• the long transformation sequence of the stereotypical Magical Anime Girl
  
• putting on a set of power armor
  
• calling on the powers of the gods who charged you with protecting the weak and bringing justice to the world
  

 

Based on that understanding of OiHID, what I think what many of you are saying is that if what changes the character from Joe Secret Identity to Techno Knight is putting on his suit of power armor, then he's already received one Limitation for the Powers being in the suit of power armor, and he doesn't also get the Focus Limitation for the same thing.

 

And, what seperates OiHID from Focus is that a Focus can be taken away, while OiHID can't but often involves some time or other possible inconvenience to switch between one ID and the other ID.

 

Is that an accurate summary?

[OddHat]

Re: OIHID and/or Focus

 

 

Based on that understanding of OiHID, what I think what many of you are saying is that if what changes the character from Joe Secret Identity to Techno Knight is putting on his suit of power armor, then he's already received one Limitation for the Powers being in the suit of power armor, and he doesn't also get the Focus Limitation for the same thing.

 

And, what seperates OiHID from Focus is that a Focus can be taken away, while OiHID can't but often involves some time or other possible inconvenience to switch between one ID and the other ID.

 

Is that an accurate summary?

 

In the main I'd agree with the above. I'd add that, as a house rule, I require that there be some way, discoverable with the right set of KS or research, to prevent an OIHID character from making his switch. It doesn't have to come up all the time (it should come up less often than similar problems faced by OIF users), but there should still be times when someone thinks to cover Billy Batson's mouth or attack Tony when he has no access to his armor. They saved a lot of points by saying that most of their powers were only available in Hero ID; once in a while, they should have to deal with a situation where those powers are not available.