Creating a Martial Art

[ghost-angel]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I respectfully disagree. The failure on this kind of KS would to me represent those aspects of the style that the character had not quite worked out yet. The roll requirement on KS can lead to interesting situations' date=' such as the character knowing something in one adventure (i.e. succeeding), and not knowing it in a later adventure. Your example seems like a simillar situation.[/quote']

 

I think that a KS (with a real roll -- one that can be failed) is a great way to represent a knowledge of the philosophy that you are developing and the understanding that it is a never-ending process -- one which changes and evolves over time. One in which you are constantly correcting yourself. A player that purchases that KS and buys up the levels would (IMO) distinguish himself from the player that simply purchased Maneuvers with no KS -- the former would be a martial artist' date=' the latter would be a fighter.[/quote']

 

I hadn't thought of it from these angles - which is of course why I asked in the first place, cover all the angles. This makes perfect sense to me now.

 

A KS should probably be bought for someone developing an art.

[Comic]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Personally, I'd require the KS before the use of group skill levels that could be applied to the group of maneuvers.

 

'Personal style' to describe a haphazard bunch of unorganized moves without the 'art' behind them, the philosophy, the knowledge or theory of why they work, may qualify someone to trip, shove, reverse a grab or such, but it doesn't make for an efficient system.

 

I'm pretty sure before Bruce Lee created his 'personal style' he had more than a few points of KS of other styles.

[pinecone]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

In addition to all that...I'd likely give a small bonus to a Analyze style roll against someone that did not have a KS. The "style" being analyzed is "Sloppy and disorganized, though still effective" till you get a KS. Then it requires more study to understand....

[Peregrine]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I am on the side that would require a KS.

 

I game terms, it is the KS that differentiates a style from a collection of maneuvers. If the player/character wants to call it a style, then the expenditure of XP to learn the KS represents time spent developing a collection of maneuvers into a style; alternatively, it represents the time spent to develop a style around which a collection of maneuvers can be assembled.

[Rapier]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I've given it some further thought.

 

The KS: Art actually represents things like "when I was 5 I learned to punch a tree in twain." It also represents the knowledge of the history of the art and the non-maneuver details. If a character was going to create an art, I don't think a KS is required, but if you want to start codifying it a KS is definately needed.

 

So, it's not really any change in my thoughts, but more of a clarification.

 

r

[ghost-angel]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Another thought came to mind.

 

Several Arts state that the master who invented it went to the mountains, or wherever, and meditated and a God/Spirit showed them the forms the Art uses.

 

Or, a KS on how to go about gaining the Maneuvers and forms to practice the Art.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I would not require a KS because there simply is no body of knowledge to know about the martial art in question. If Joe Blow goes out and invents his own martial art, the entire story of Joe-jutsu is:

 

Joe Blow invented Joe-Jutsu. The End.

 

Sure you could include a few more details as to why and how the art was invented, but I wouldn't charge points for knowledge that fits on a one-page pamphlet. In HERO, you're supposed to pay points for things that are *useful*. And KS: Joe-Jutsu simply isn't useful.

 

Now, for a character to actually invent a (viable) martial art, he probably needs some kind of knowledge, and might have SS: Muscular Physiology, or SS: Human Anatomy, or even KS: Handwavian Mysticism, or other types of skills that might be related to the particular style. For example, an art that involves a lot of feinting and misdirecting moves, might be invented by a person with Acting. An art that involves a lot of acrobatic moves might require (you guessed it) Acrobatics in order to have been invented. An art based on the defensive techniques used by a particular type of animal might have required extensive study of that animal in order to be developed. And so forth.

 

OTOH, I have also created characters that have their own unique style of fighting, based on their unusual physiologies. These styles are not martial arts in the classic sense, but they are purchased as Martial Arts because they work that way mechanically. I have done this with two of my oldest and favoritest characters: Hands, and Mr. Boddy. Neither of them formally studied to develope their style, they just learned to fight using their abilities, which differ from most people. In order for Hands to teach his "martial art," to others, he'd say, "First, grow six additional arms, two wings, and a prehensile tail." In order for Mr. Boddy to teach his "art," he'd have to say, "First, lose the ability to feel pain."

[Simon]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I would not require a KS because there simply is no body of knowledge to know about the martial art in question. If Joe Blow goes out and invents his own martial art, the entire story of Joe-jutsu is:

 

Joe Blow invented Joe-Jutsu. The End.

 

Sure you could include a few more details as to why and how the art was invented, but I wouldn't charge points for knowledge that fits on a one-page pamphlet. In HERO, you're supposed to pay points for things that are *useful*. And KS: Joe-Jutsu simply isn't useful.

Let me try to explain where I'm coming from in a slightly different perspective and (hopefully) address what appear to be your concerns above:

 

You can say the exact same thing as you say above about ANY martial art.

 

The entire story of Hapkido is:

 

Choi Yong Sool invented Hapkido. The end.

 

From this perspective, you appear to be arguing against ANY KS: [some Martial Art]. I argue that this makes the character little more than a skilled fighter, not a martial artist.

 

KS: Hapkido would represent knowledge of the history of hapkido (your one page pamphlet, here)....but also the philosophy of the art. Why do you move in a particular way? Why is the fighting stance a long stance with a (generally) low defensive position with the hands? Why are there so many movements that are similar to Ju-Jutsu? Why are the movements different from classic Ju-Jutsu? Why are there movements that are similar to Taekwondo? Why do the stances differ from classic Taekwondo (slightly)?

 

Etc.

 

Not just the story/history behind them, but the reasons behind them. The philosophy and the history combine to create a KS.

 

And the answers to any given question (roll during gameplay) change over time as the founder of the art refines his art and the corresponding philosophy.

 

Without the KS: Hapkido, Choi Yong Sool was an exceptionally talented fighter who (ostensibly) trained in traditional Korean Mu Sool before (still a child) he was taken to Japan as a servant, where he studied Aiki-Jutsu under Sokaku Takeda.

 

With the KS: Hapkido, Choi Yong Sool was an exceptionally talented martial artist who created a unique philosophy, which is still evolving today. The basics of the philosophy and fighting art can be found in a combination of the philosophies and movements of Aiki-Jutsu, Judo, and Taekwondo/Mu Sool. The specifics of the actual philosophy of his art (why movements are the way they are, why certain elements exist and others do not, etc.) can fill many volumes of books. Much like any other formal martial art. He would be able to look at another martial artist and gain insight into his style and philosophy by drawing comparisons to his own (note: not Analyze Style -- this is out of combat knowledge and "higher level" combat knowledge).

 

Everything you describe above sounds very much like skilled fighters, not martial artists. There is a strong amount of philosophy, understanding of history and traditions (even in the creation of a new art), healing arts, and biomechanics/physics that go into the creation of a martial artist. My statement (above and here) is that the KS is how you represent these non-combat studies in the Hero System.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

You can say the exact same thing as you say above about ANY martial art.

 

The entire story of Hapkido is:

 

Choi Yong Sool invented Hapkido. The end.

But it isn't. There's a lot more to know about hapkido than there is about Joe-jutsu. There's much more to the story. I don't know anything about hapkido myself, but presumably there are many other expert practitioners besides Choi Yong Sool. He did some things with it, taught it to some people, they in turn did some other things with it, and taught it to more people, etc. And there may be other bits of useful knowledge about it, like the physics/physiology behind it.

 

The point I was trying to make is that, no, you can't say the exact same thing about any other martial art. The others all have a rich history, presumably full of useful info. Joe-jutsu has no history, and there's nothing useful to know about it, other than how to perform the maneuvers themselves.

 

I would think that Thomas Edison didn't have SS: Lightbulb Technology *before* he invented the lightbulb. And even right after he did so, there still isn't much knowledge there to justify spending points on a skill. Today, now that lightbulb technology has developed extensively, SS: Lightbulb Tech could be a useful skill. There are probably plenty of thick books on the subject, just as there are about hapkido or karate or kung fu.

 

Likewise Dr. Happykitty does not have to buy a KS or SS in order to build his doomsday device; he just builds it and pays the points for the device itself.

 

From this perspective, you appear to be arguing against ANY KS: [some Martial Art]. I argue that this makes the character little more than a skilled fighter, not a martial artist.

Not at all. Though I am curious as to what you consider the difference between a "skilled fighter" and a "martial artist". forgive my ignorance of the subject. I am not a martial artist myself, and the term has always seemed somewhat odd to me.

 

KS: Hapkido would represent knowledge of the history of hapkido (your one page pamphlet, here)....but also the philosophy of the art. Why do you move in a particular way? Why is the fighting stance a long stance with a (generally) low defensive position with the hands? Why are there so many movements that are similar to Ju-Jutsu? Why are the movements different from classic Ju-Jutsu? Why are there movements that are similar to Taekwondo? Why do the stances differ from classic Taekwondo (slightly)?

Exactly. That's why KS: Hapkido would be a legitimate skill. None of that knowledge exists for Joe-jutsu, however.

 

Not just the story/history behind them, but the reasons behind them. The philosophy and the history combine to create a KS.

And while we're on the subject, what exactly do we mean when we speak of the "philosophy" of a particular martial art? How does the philosophy of hapkido differ from the philosophy of karate or some other style? How does a martial art philosophy differ from a non-martial-art philosophy? And is that philosophy useful in a game-mechanical way, such that points ought to be spent on it?

 

Everything you describe above sounds very much like skilled fighters, not martial artists. There is a strong amount of philosophy, understanding of history and traditions (even in the creation of a new art), healing arts, and biomechanics/physics that go into the creation of a martial artist. My statement (above and here) is that the KS is how you represent these non-combat studies in the Hero System.

Well, certainly the two characters I mentioned are skilled fighters, and not martial artists, even though they are Martial Artists. And yes, an inventor of a new martial art might have knowledge (KS) of one or more previously existing martial arts on which he based his new one. As for having knowledge (KSs or SSs) of healing, biomechanics, etc., I already mentioned in my last post those types of knowledge as being possible requirements for inventing a new martial art. Just as Edison probably has KS or SS: Electricity, before inventing the lightbulb (and other inventions).

[Simon]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I think that the main reason for our differing opinions is exactly what you state above: you don't know what distinguishes a martial artist from a fighter. I'll try to explain, but with the VERY large caveat that I've only been studying for 11 years now and am still extremely "young" in the arts.

 

A fighter is someone who is skilled in...well...fighting. The guys that get into bar fights....street thugs, that kind of guy. They're extremely tough. They know how to fight -- how to throw a punch, kick, how to avoid an attack, etc. They're skilled in using their environment, evasion, attack, all of that.

 

A martial artist begins as a fighter. You learn how to attack, how to evade, how to block/parry.

 

What distinguishes the two is what I refer to as philosophy -- part of the mental training that comes with the martial arts. There is a common groundwork for the philosophy in the martial arts -- one that you see almost universally....but it's difficult to explain/put into words. It's perhaps best expressed by looking at the differences between martial artists and fighters.

 

A fighter is a street tough. He will frequently be found in fights. You can typically goad a fighter pretty easily (bump into him in a bar, start acting tough....they'll come at you to prove a point).

 

Conversely, martial artist is typically the LAST person you'll find in a fight. I have studied with some martial arts masters (many of them sadly passed, now). To a man, they have all been some of the most peaceful people I have ever met. The guys that you really want to hang out with and just talk to over drinks in the pub.

 

The philosophy goes deeper than that, of course. In game terms, you could explain any number of effects through the philosophy and study of martial arts -- from higher EGO to Resistance to enhanced attack damage and defenses.

 

The creator of a martial art is not someone who exists in a vacuum. No one has ever created a martial art from nothing -- they base it on what they have learned from others. The philosophies, beliefs, and practices of the art can be seen in the arts that the founder learned and integrated.

 

The KS of the founder is a merging of his knowledge of these varied arts -- not so much his understanding of each art on its own (that is best represented by individual KS's of the various arts), but of his understanding of the principles of the other arts as they integrate together into the art he has created.

 

You can teach anyone how to throw a punch or a kick. It takes a special breed to become a good fighter. Fewer still can move on to become a true martial artist -- something that I'm still working on.

[caris]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

May, I ask a question before I start my commentary. Would you allow someone to buy the Karate manuvers without buying KS: Karate?

 

(The answer to this can help me get a better understanding of where you are coming from.)

 

But it isn't. There's a lot more to know about hapkido than there is about Joe-jutsu. There's much more to the story. I don't know anything about hapkido myself, but presumably there are many other expert practitioners besides Choi Yong Sool. He did some things with it, taught it to some people, they in turn did some other things with it, and taught it to more people, etc. And there may be other bits of useful knowledge about it, like the physics/physiology behind it.

 

The point I was trying to make is that, no, you can't say the exact same thing about any other martial art. The others all have a rich history, presumably full of useful info. Joe-jutsu has no history, and there's nothing useful to know about it, other than how to perform the maneuvers themselves.

 

There is more to KS: Martial Art than just an understanding of the history of the art, but I'll discuss that more later.

 

I would think that Thomas Edison didn't have SS: Lightbulb Technology *before* he invented the lightbulb. And even right after he did so' date=' there still isn't much knowledge there to justify spending points on a skill. Today, now that lightbulb technology has developed extensively, SS: Lightbulb Tech could be a useful skill. There are probably plenty of thick books on the subject, just as there are about hapkido or karate or kung fu.[/quote']

 

Actually, given my understanding of the way Edison did things, I would be more inclined to give him SS: Lightbulb technology, than the SS:Physics, SS: Chemistry, SS: Electrical engineering that one would normally give an inventor in that kind of situation.

 

Likewise Dr. Happykitty does not have to buy a KS or SS in order to build his doomsday device; he just builds it and pays the points for the device itself.

 

Well, generally speaking one would require Dr. Happykitty to have all sorts of other Knowledge and Science Skills that all added together would equal one SS: Doomsday Device Building. Granted in some campaigns, that might not be necessary (e.g. Dr. Happykitty's super power is the ability to create working Dooms Day Devices with absolutely no understanding of the underlying principles that the device works from).

 

 

Not at all. Though I am curious as to what you consider the difference between a "skilled fighter" and a "martial artist". forgive my ignorance of the subject. I am not a martial artist myself, and the term has always seemed somewhat odd to me.

 

 

Exactly. That's why KS: Hapkido would be a legitimate skill. None of that knowledge exists for Joe-jutsu, however.

 

 

And while we're on the subject, what exactly do we mean when we speak of the "philosophy" of a particular martial art? How does the philosophy of hapkido differ from the philosophy of karate or some other style? How does a martial art philosophy differ from a non-martial-art philosophy? And is that philosophy useful in a game-mechanical way, such that points ought to be spent on it?

 

 

Well, certainly the two characters I mentioned are skilled fighters, and not martial artists, even though they are Martial Artists. And yes, an inventor of a new martial art might have knowledge (KS) of one or more previously existing martial arts on which he based his new one. As for having knowledge (KSs or SSs) of healing, biomechanics, etc., I already mentioned in my last post those types of knowledge as being possible requirements for inventing a new martial art. Just as Edison probably has KS or SS: Electricity, before inventing the lightbulb (and other inventions).

 

 

I'm going to kind of attempt to address a lot of this all together.

 

The difference is that a martial artist goes farther than just learning how to fight. Sort of like the difference between a PhD in physics and and a two year degree in electrical engineering. There is a difference in focus. Now, this is not to get into the whole "martial arts are the super cool can kick anyone's butt deal." It is possible to "just" be a skilled fighter and kick the ass of a martial artist. Generally, part of becoming a martial artist is developing into a skilled fighter.

 

One of the things that one learns a martial art is the principles (philosophy) that underlie the manuvers, and inform the way the art approaches fighting, and some times life. The basic assumptions, thought patterns and expectations that form Boxing are different than those that form Fencing. An art that looks at the stability of a mountain and how it always endures, is going to function differently than an art that studies the speed of a snake as it strikes. Martial Arts are influnced by the culture/sub-culture and the needs of that culture.

 

It is an explicit awareness and understanding of those principles, as well as the history that is often represented by KS: Martial Art.

 

Know keep in mind we have to differentiate between the mechanic Martial Arts Manuvers in the Hero System, and the actual martial art styles that we use the mechanic to mimic. The manuvers only represent the combat abilities of the art (and in many cases only a portion of that combat ability). That is why all the write ups of martial arts styles that are based on manuvers include at least some recommended skills to go with them, even if it is just the KS, some WF and/or WE. It is that combination of elements that allows you to simulate the martial art style from the real world. Just as one should apply the correct sets of advantages and limitations simulate things from the real world.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I think I fall in the KS category.

 

 

IIRC the idea for HERO's martial arts is that you have to take the KS: Art first (as Caris mentioned above); so if you study Karate (Atemi Strike), Aikido (Throw), Kung Fu (Kick), and Pro Wrestling: (Atomic DDT (Crush)) you'd have the KS's for each art. Then when you craft your own art you'd have the KS: You Fu...this is what you teach students...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I think that the main reason for our differing opinions is exactly what you state above: you don't know what distinguishes a martial artist from a fighter. I'll try to explain' date=' but with the VERY large caveat that I've only been studying for 11 years now and am still extremely "young" in the arts.[/quote']

I'm not sure we do disagree that much at all, though you seem to not understand what I've said.

 

A fighter is ...

A martial artist ....

 

What distinguishes the two is what I refer to as philosophy -- ...

 

A fighter is a street tough. He will frequently be found in fights. You can typically goad a fighter pretty easily (bump into him in a bar, start acting tough....they'll come at you to prove a point).

 

Conversely, martial artist is typically the LAST person you'll find in a fight. I have studied with some martial arts masters (many of them sadly passed, now). To a man, they have all been some of the most peaceful people I have ever met. The guys that you really want to hang out with and just talk to over drinks in the pub.

This part seems to be where we disagree. What if a person is good in a fight, but never formally studied martial arts, doesn't have a KS in a particular style, is a nice guy, isn't easily goaded into a fight, is a peaceful person, and would be good to hang around with. Does such a person not exist in your view? Is the KS: MA Style required for not being eaily goaded? For just being a nice, peaceful guy? If you know how to fight well, but aren't a martial artist, does that mean you must be a hot-tempered, violent person?

 

The philosophy goes deeper than that, of course. In game terms, you could explain any number of effects through the philosophy and study of martial arts -- from higher EGO to Resistance to enhanced attack damage and defenses.

Yes, but you'd represent that higher EGO and Resistance by *buying* higher EGO and Resistance. What does the philosophy give you that's useful in the game, i.e., that's worth spending points on? To me, there is plenty of useful stuff that the KS: Particular Style of MA gives you: history of the style, symbolism, terms, current experts, etc. Just like KS: Baseball would tell you a lot about what's going on in the world of baseball, the rules of the game, stats, history, etc.

 

I'm not so sure that boxing and fencing and wrestling (professional or greco-roman) have much of a "philosophy" attached. Even though they do have KSs.

 

The creator of a martial art is not someone who exists in a vacuum. No one has ever created a martial art from nothing -- they base it on what they have learned from others. The philosophies, beliefs, and practices of the art can be seen in the arts that the founder learned and integrated.

 

The KS of the founder is a merging of his knowledge of these varied arts -- not so much his understanding of each art on its own (that is best represented by individual KS's of the various arts), but of his understanding of the principles of the other arts as they integrate together into the art he has created.

Yes. I've already said as much, twice. We agree here. An inventor of a new martial art has some knowledge of something in advance, just as Edison had knowledge of something before he invented the lightbulb. He didn't have knowledge of lightbulbs, nor could he, because they didn't exist yet.

 

You can teach anyone how to throw a punch or a kick. It takes a special breed to become a good fighter. Fewer still can move on to become a true martial artist -- something that I'm still working on.

I still don't understand the difference. I'm sure you don't mean that martial artists are peaceful people that you'd want to hang out with while skilled fighters are hotheads and boors. But you seem to be indicating that the only real difference is skill level: that a skilled fighter is good at fighting, but a martial artist is even better. If so, that's just a matter of degree. Say, a skilled fighter has 1-3 CSLs while a martial artist has 4 or more.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Let me try, from the point of view of someone who hasn't studied Martial Arts, but has hung around a bunch - and has gotten into (and now avoids completely) his own share of fights.

 

You can teach someone Karate without making them a Martial Artist. In fact I know one guy who has the physical aspect of Karate down pat, big strong fellow. Not a short fuse, but he really doesn't care about the philosophy behind the Art - he just likes the idea of being able to hurt you very badly very quickly. He's a fighter.

 

Another friend of mine is just as technically good at Karate is the first, but he studied the history, the philosophy, and at one point became a teacher of the art. He's even more loathe to fight that the first, in fact he's a big teddy bear really.

 

The difference between the two is, to put it in game terms, the second took a KS: Karate where the first didn't. He doesn't care about the underlying points, only the physical motion. He has probably gotten as far as he will ever get with Karate, seeing it only as a way to fight.

 

Getting back to creating an actual Martial Art - you take your knowledge of fighting, your ability to fight, and sculpt a philosophy around it, a methodology and turn it from a deadly method of causing pain to an actual Martial Art.

 

So, again in game terms, when making a new art I would say you don't start with a KS, but until you acquire one your purchased Maneuvers are simply a group of fighting skills you use a certain way - possibly not even in a consistent way.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Even from a pure "I just want to fight" point of view, there is a difference between "I'm going to throw everything I've got at him" and "I'll wait for him to come to me, then throw him on his *ss". In other words, the hard vs soft aspect of the art.

 

If Joe is really developing "Joejutsu" rather than "Joe's collection of things that work", he'll need the KS, so he can see what his "collection of things that work" really revolves around, what should be added to cover weak points, and what should be dropped because it doesn't fit.

 

Without this, he'll have a hell of a time passing it on to someone else. They can learn a few "things that work" but there won't be a firm foundation that it's all built on. Whatever the second guy learns will be all hit-or-miss.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

May' date=' I ask a question before I start my commentary. Would you allow someone to buy the Karate manuvers without buying KS: Karate?[/quote']

Yes. Per the standard HERO System rules. You get what you pay for, and you pay for what you get. Prerequisites are for lesser systems. I also allow someone to buy a Power without buying a Power Skill for it. They can buy a whole bunch of electricity-based powers (perhaps in a framework) without buying SS: Electricity.

 

There is more to KS: Martial Art than just an understanding of the history of the art, but I'll discuss that more later.

True. I may not have made that clear. The KS of a martial art can include many things besides history, such as the current state of the particular art, the philosophy of it, and all sorts of other things. I didn't mean to imply that it was only history. But at the moment when Joe invents Joe-jutsu, there is no body of knowledge there yet. There are no other practitioners, let alone noteworthy ones, there is no other "history", there may not even be a philosophy, there are no schools, no traditions, no technical terms, no culture around the art, etc.

 

Actually, given my understanding of the way Edison did things, I would be more inclined to give him SS: Lightbulb technology, than the SS:Physics, SS: Chemistry, SS: Electrical engineering that one would normally give an inventor in that kind of situation.

An important point, perhaps the most important point, I was trying to make is that when we're talking about Skills - the ones you spend points on - they must be *useful* in the game, as opposed to skills, which may me handwaved as background character info that shouldn't cost points. At the moment of Edison's invention of the lightbulb, there is simply no body of knowledge there to be worth even the 2 points you'd spend on SS: Lightbulb Technology (nor, I would argue, even a 1-point familiarity). Sure, he might have some Skills like glassblowing, wire-making, vacuum-generating, etc., to allow him to physically make a lightbulb, but even those are extremely limited.

 

And just for added clarification: I wouldn't charge points for KS: The Specific Unique Properties of My Own Body, or KS: My Own Personal Philosophy of Life, or KS: My Own Personality and Typical M.O. None of those are Skills in the game-mechanical sense.

 

Well, generally speaking one would require Dr. Happykitty to have all sorts of other Knowledge and Science Skills that all added together would equal one SS: Doomsday Device Building. ....

Yes, pretty much, which goes along with what I already said in my first two posts.

 

The difference is that a martial artist goes farther than just learning how to fight.

Fine. This seems to imply that it's just a question of labels. If a character doesn't have the KS for his style, then you don't think he should be properly called a martial artist. Which is fine.

 

Sort of like the difference between a PhD in physics and and a two year degree in electrical engineering. There is a difference in focus.

I'm not sure what you mean here. In this analogy, which one is the martial artist? There isn't just a difference in focus, there's a difference in the extent of education. Is it the difference between a PhD in physics and a PhD in EE, or is it the difference between a PhD in EE and an AA in EE?

 

One of the things that one learns a martial art is the principles (philosophy) that underlie the manuvers, and inform the way the art approaches fighting, and some times life.

That's fine, but is that philosophy useful in a way that should cost points in the game? Is there really a philosophical reason why the Dragon Claw Strike of Death is performed with the hand in *this* position, instead of *that* position? Or is it simply a matter of that it works one way, better than the other?

 

An art that looks at the stability of a mountain and how it always endures, is going to function differently than an art that studies the speed of a snake as it strikes. Martial Arts are influnced by the culture/sub-culture and the needs of that culture.

Right. And if you buy the KS for the style, you will have a good understanding of the cultural influences that created that style. If you don't buy it, then you won't.

 

It is an explicit awareness and understanding of those principles, as well as the history that is often represented by KS: Martial Art.

Yes. Don't get me wrong: I never said that a KS in a martial art style is not a valid or useful skill to purchase. It most certainly is.

[casualplayer]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Well, as a practitioner of Tu Bi Phor and Leed Wit Chin I believe that the initial idea of the inclusion of KS: Blah was to represent the level of skill of the practioner and to have something to use as a complimentary/opposed skill roll or for an applicable skill for Requires Skill Roll stuff. You have to have something that determines level of skill other than DCs and CVs.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Even from a pure "I just want to fight" point of view' date=' there is a difference between "I'm going to throw everything I've got at him" and "I'll wait for him to come to me, then throw him on his *ss". In other words, the hard vs soft aspect of the art.[/quote']

But that's more of a stylistic consideration, rather than a difference in art vs. not-art.

 

If Joe is really developing "Joejutsu" rather than "Joe's collection of things that work", he'll need the KS, so he can see what his "collection of things that work" really revolves around, what should be added to cover weak points, and what should be dropped because it doesn't fit.

I don't really see any meaningful difference between a martial art and a collection of things that work. A martial art isn't developed to be a performance, it's developed to accomplish a particular task: defending yourself/winning in a fight. The very term "martial art" has always seemed a little odd to me, though I do understand it. It's an older sense of the word "art" - in the sense of a craft, a studied and practiced technique of doing something, in this case, fighting. But of course "martial craft" would sound funny, and "martial engineering" would sound even worse.

 

So if Joe doesn't buy a KS, he won't know what his own collection of maneuvers revolves around? I don't require players to buy a KS: My Own Ideas and Memories.

 

Without this, he'll have a hell of a time passing it on to someone else. They can learn a few "things that work" but there won't be a firm foundation that it's all built on. Whatever the second guy learns will be all hit-or-miss.

I don't see how this conclusion follows. Learning to perform a particular task is not the same as learning the surrounding facts of that task. You can learn to play a song on a piano without learing anything about the composer or even the name or lyrics to the song, or how and why the song was written, or the meaning of the song, or how to build a piano or how to tune a piano or how a piano works or even how to tell if a piano is in tune.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

But that's more of a stylistic consideration' date=' rather than a difference in art vs. not-art.[/quote'] Agreed, but it was meant to illustrate the sort of information that can go into a KS based on a collection-of-things-that-work that is evolving into a martial art.

 

I don't really see any meaningful difference between a martial art and a collection of things that work.

 

I can agree here too, to a point. When you come right down to it, they serve the same purpose. But there is a connotational difference, that being that a martial art has a system to it, and if there's a system to it, there's knowledge to be skilled in.

 

So if Joe doesn't buy a KS, he won't know what his own collection of maneuvers revolves around? I don't require players to buy a KS: My Own Ideas and Memories.

 

A person's own ideas and memories aren't necessarily systematized (and in most cases, probably aren't, at least not well...human nature). But, in order to pass on your own ideas to someone else, it works way better when there is a pattern to it all. I could have made all these points without breaking it up with the quotes, as you could have in the post I'm replying to, but with the layer of order it's easier to follow along with what is being referred to, and what is meant by the referring statement.

 

I don't see how this conclusion follows. Learning to perform a particular task is not the same as learning the surrounding facts of that task. You can learn to play a song on a piano without learing anything about the composer or even the name or lyrics to the song, or how and why the song was written, or the meaning of the song, or how to build a piano or how to tune a piano or how a piano works or even how to tell if a piano is in tune.

 

This is all true, but having any of this information can improve the performance of the song, particularly the bits about the why and the meaning of the song, and the workings and tunings of the piano. It's not impossible to learn without this knowledge, but knowing it improves the results.

 

Going back to game terms, it's not necessary to buy the KS to have martial arts maneuvers, or to combine maneuvers from different styles, or even to just refine some fighting tricks into a style. In most cases, however, from a role-playing aspect, it makes good sense to do so, for a "martial artist" as opposed to a "street fighter". If the guy who made up this style analyzes it and applies a philosophy to it overall, it is a martial art with an associated KS. If the guy just uses what works, it's a collection of moves, with no KS.

 

It all comes down to a feel, more than anything else. A special effect. I as a GM wouldn't make anyone buy it, but if they were to teach it to someone else, it would be come across more like Fight Club than Karate Kid. If they tried to add that Karate Kid layer without the KS, the students would see it as a crock.

[Simon]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Phil, you really just don't seem to understand what the martial arts (versus fighting) are all about. I'm not trying to insult or impune here, just please try to listen to what folks are telling you.

 

There is a fundamental difference between a fighter and a martial artists. Where the lines start to blur is that a large part of martial art training is fighting -- a martial artist is a fighter, but a fighter is not (necessarily) a martial artist. Programming terms: MartialArtist extends Fighter.

 

Quantifying specifically where the difference lies is tricky -- anyone with experience in or knowledge of the martial arts knows and can recognize the difference....but it's difficult to put into words, particularly since you seem insistent that those words adhere to Hero System constructs.

 

Let me try this:

 

If I am creating a Chess master, I would give him both KS: Chess as well as PS: Chess. They're complimentary rolls, representing different aspects of that individual's training. You can get into the differences between PS and KS to determine the specific aspects that each represents, but that's really between you and your GM and is of very little interest to me (I tend to think of PS as the practical, gameplay-related and the KS as history, theory, etc.). Together, the two allow you to talk a good game. You can impress other players.

 

A child prodigy would likely only have the PS -- he's extremely gifted at playing the game, but has little knowledge of the background and history.

 

A veteran master would have both. He could talk to other players and evaluate both their background in the game as well as their skill. He could identify the prodigy versus the veteran player.

 

And yes, I would be more worried about the veteran master.

 

 

One thing that I see repeatedly in this discussion of someone creating their own martial art is a rather serious misconception about how someone goes about creating an art. It is never done in a vacuum.

 

Joe Jutsu (if it is to be assumed that it is an "actual" martial art and not just a repackaged version of a poorly-learned Ju-Jutsu -- something that you get all too much of these days), would be based on years of study of other arts. Typically years of study of one main art with one or more corrolaries -- the guys that just hop from system to system rarely progress very far.

 

Joe would have significant knowledge of the arts and of philosophy. You could choose to represent this by purchasing 2-6 different KS's (for each of the art forms and philosophies that he has studied)....but that wouldn't really represent Joe Jutsu. Joe Jutsu and the KS related to it is about what he has selected from those other disciplines and why. Both movements as well as philosophies.

 

 

 

 

A final side note on the learning of maneuvers themselves (may help in understanding the amount of time and work and study of other systems that goes into creating a new martial art):

 

The body learns through "muscle memory". People who "re-learn" how to walk after a spinal cord injury do not regrow neural pathways -- the neural pathways they used to walk have been severed. They teach their body to use different pathways to control their legs and balance. At first, this is extremely clumsy. Over time, they get better and better at it as their body gets used to firing those pathways and the pathways "widen".

 

Martial arts training is little different -- you perform the same movements over and over again, training your body. Neural pathways are "widened" -- increasing your reflexes and decreasing your response times (the time it takes for your muscles to fire after a stimulus is registered by your brain).

 

Your body is also changed in more obvious physiological ways -- the "spongy" structure at the surface of your skeleton is collapsed/condensed due to the repeated and increasing stresses that you place on it. Your skeleton becomes denser....stronger. The guys that do breaking competitions take this to an extreme -- if you tried to do what they regularly do, you could mirror the movement perfectly, firing every muscle at the right time, having the perfect alignment, etc.....and you would still shatter your own bones. I've seen guys do head butts to break bricks that would kill a normal person. It's the result of a LOT of training and discipline.

 

Joe, in order to create Joe Jutsu, would need to go through this whole training regimen.

 

Now, you can say that he did this in much the same way that a Marine goes through combat training -- that would give him the physical abilities and make him an excellent fighter. But it would not make him a martial artist.

 

If he is creating a new martial art and not just a new way of fighting (which we all have and do -- you move differently than I do), he would have to have been training for years in the martial arts. Both in the fighting arts as well as the philosophy and mental disciplines.

 

In game terms, when a martial artist talked to Joe (the guy that didn't have a KS), there would be no doubt in their mind that Joe was just a fighter. He would not have the requisite knowledge or background to converse with them about the martial arts.

 

When a martial artist talked to Joe (the guy that did have a KS), even if he didn't agree with Joe's philosophy/style, he would know that Joe was a studied martial artist.

 

Giving practical benefits to someone being a proficient martial artist vs. just a fighter is entirely in the purview of the GM -- much like giving practical benefits to the veteran chess master vs. the child prodigy.

[caris]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Yes. Per the standard HERO System rules. You get what you pay for' date=' and you pay for what you get. Prerequisites are for lesser systems. I also allow someone to buy a Power without buying a Power Skill for it. They can buy a whole bunch of electricity-based powers (perhaps in a framework) without buying SS: Electricity. [/quote']

 

Thank you for answering the question, I was thinking some of the disconnect may have been coming from a difference of philosophy. There is a school of thought that one can not buy the maneuvers for an art without buying the accompanying KS for the art. The group that I play most of my martial arts focused games with subscribes to this philosophy. This is not to say that I think that groups that do otherwise are “wrong.”

 

Let me ask you another question, do you require players when building powers to buy specific Advantages and/or Limitations to model the behavior of the special effect of the power? If the player does not put “Can not pass through a non-conductive medium” on his electrical based teleport do you allow it to pass through glass, rubber, water with no effect? If the player told you that the special effect of all those electrical powers was that they were gadgets that he built himself, would you require him to buy the skills that you deem appropriate to do so?

 

For some of us the requirement for buying KS: Martial Art is part of properly modeling the special effect.

 

True. I may not have made that clear. The KS of a martial art can include many things besides history, such as the current state of the particular art, the philosophy of it, and all sorts of other things. I didn't mean to imply that it was only history. But at the moment when Joe invents Joe-jutsu, there is no body of knowledge there yet. There are no other practitioners, let alone noteworthy ones, there is no other "history", there may not even be a philosophy, there are no schools, no traditions, no technical terms, no culture around the art, etc.

 

 

An important point, perhaps the most important point, I was trying to make is that when we're talking about Skills - the ones you spend points on - they must be *useful* in the game, as opposed to skills, which may me handwaved as background character info that shouldn't cost points. At the moment of Edison's invention of the lightbulb, there is simply no body of knowledge there to be worth even the 2 points you'd spend on SS: Lightbulb Technology (nor, I would argue, even a 1-point familiarity). Sure, he might have some Skills like glassblowing, wire-making, vacuum-generating, etc., to allow him to physically make a lightbulb, but even those are extremely limited.

 

Here is one of the key areas of disagreement. I obviously do think that there is enough worth while knowledge at the moment a martial art style or when Edison succeeded in creating the light bulb to warrant a skill. Your comment “Sure, he might have some Skills like glassblowing, wire-making, vacuum-generating, etc., to allow him to physically make a lightbulb, but even those are extremely limited.” Illustrates my thinking. The skill in each of those individual tasks separately are not worth individual separate point expenditures, but in aggregate they are worth a spending points on as a whole.

 

And just for added clarification: I wouldn't charge points for KS: The Specific Unique Properties of My Own Body' date=' or KS: My Own Personal Philosophy of Life, or KS: My Own Personality and Typical M.O. None of those are Skills in the game-mechanical sense.[/quote']

 

There are occasions, where I would require players to buy either of the skills you mentioned. Either depending on circumstances would represent knowledge outside the limits of knowledge on those topics that I would consider appropriate what the general populace knows. Just having Phys. Lim. Diabetic, does not automatically give you knowledge about Diabetes that the general population doesn’t have, in game. So I might allow KS: Diabetes, or even KS: Type II Diabetes, either of which I would consider the equivalent of “KS: The Specific Unique Properties of My Own Body”.

 

Yes, pretty much, which goes along with what I already said in my first two posts.

 

 

Fine. This seems to imply that it's just a question of labels. If a character doesn't have the KS for his style, then you don't think he should be properly called a martial artist. Which is fine.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean here. In this analogy, which one is the martial artist? There isn't just a difference in focus, there's a difference in the extent of education. Is it the difference between a PhD in physics and a PhD in EE, or is it the difference between a PhD in EE and an AA in EE?

 

I was thinking more of an AS than AA, but that is because I have very specific concepts of the difference between an Arts degree and a Science degree stuck in my head. I tend to forget that most people never used them, and most institutions don’t use them any more either.

 

What I’m getting at is that a “skilled fighter” is someone who never goes beyond the “this is what works” manner of thinking. A Martial Arts gets into thinking about “why this works.” As you said this is a matter of labels, but you were asking Simon to explain what he meant by those labels.

 

 

That's fine, but is that philosophy useful in a way that should cost points in the game? Is there really a philosophical reason why the Dragon Claw Strike of Death is performed with the hand in *this* position, instead of *that* position? Or is it simply a matter of that it works one way, better than the other?

 

 

Right. And if you buy the KS for the style, you will have a good understanding of the cultural influences that created that style. If you don't buy it, then you won't.

 

 

Yes. Don't get me wrong: I never said that a KS in a martial art style is not a valid or useful skill to purchase. It most certainly is.

 

This was where I was attempting to answer your question about philosophy and martial arts. In particular:

 

And while we're on the subject' date=' what exactly do we mean when we speak of the "philosophy" of a particular martial art? How does the philosophy of hapkido differ from the philosophy of karate or some other style? How does a martial art philosophy differ from a non-martial-art philosophy? And is that philosophy useful in a game-mechanical way, such that points ought to be spent on it? [/quote']

[Black Rose]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Thank you for answering the question' date=' I was thinking some of the disconnect may have been coming from a difference of philosophy. There is a school of thought that one can not buy the maneuvers for an art without buying the accompanying KS for the art. The group that I play most of my martial arts focused games with subscribes to this philosophy. This is not to say that I think that groups that do otherwise are “wrong.”[/quote']

 

I tend to think this - buying a KS: Specific Martial Art before you buy specific maneuvers - is the right way to do things. The way I see it, you spend one point to get a Familiarity, and this represents the basics of the style; essentially, how to do things you already know how to do, but the style's way. Once you spend the second point and gain the full skill, you can start adding to your repertoire and not just using what you already had in a different way. Heck, I can see the argument that you shouldn't be able to use maneuvers you bought for other styles in this style until you have the full skill, or perhaps at a penalty; you don't really have the depth of understanding in this new style to consistently perform such techniques correctly.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Agreed' date=' but it was meant to illustrate the sort of information that can go into a KS based on a collection-of-things-that-work that is evolving into a martial art.[/quote']

But you could just as easily have a KS about a collection-of-things-that-work.

 

But there is a connotational difference, that being that a martial art has a system to it, and if there's a system to it, there's knowledge to be skilled in.

OK. But is that connotational difference worth character points? The useful knowledge of a style I would agree *is* worth character points. But that would be the case whether or not there is a "system to it."

 

A person's own ideas and memories aren't necessarily systematized (and in most cases, probably aren't, at least not well...human nature). But, in order to pass on your own ideas to someone else, it works way better when there is a pattern to it all.

HERO's character points aren't based on whether something is systematized or not. They're based on whether it's useful or not. You pay points for how game mechanically useful something is, not for how difficult it is to learn or teach.

 

This is all true, but having any of this information can improve the performance of the song, ...

Yes. Which is why the KS is still useful. Someone who pays the points for it will get the utility out of it. Someone who doesn't pay the points won't get the utility. The decision is up to the player. The system doesn't require it, nor do I, as the GM.

 

Going back to game terms, it's not necessary to buy the KS to have martial arts maneuvers, ... In most cases, however, from a role-playing aspect, it makes good sense to do so, for a "martial artist" as opposed to a "street fighter".

I think this may be the crux of the disagreement. In HERO, you don't pay points for "role-playing aspects," you pay points for what's useful. I don't think the label of "martial artist" as opposed to "street fighter" is worth any points at all. Anybody can call themselves a martial artist if they want to, even if they don't buy any maneuvers or skills at all. You could just buy 10 levels with all HtH combat. That would be pretty martial-arty to me. Whether other people want to apply that label to you is their decision. A professional wrestler could buy all the pro-wrestling maneuvers, the KS: Pro-wrestling, and all the related skills and elements (WF: Metal folding chairs), and the label of "martial artist" would still be pretty tenuous.

 

If the guy who made up this style analyzes it and applies a philosophy to it overall, it is a martial art with an associated KS.

I'd say that's true (in a game sense) only if that KS is useful and would justify the points spent on it. You can always call it a (small-s) skill, and not give it any game-mechaincal meaning, and still call it a martial art.

 

It all comes down to a feel, more than anything else. A special effect.

And you don't pay points for a "feel" or a special effect.

 

I as a GM wouldn't make anyone buy it, but if they were to teach it to someone else, it would be come across more like Fight Club than Karate Kid. If they tried to add that Karate Kid layer without the KS, the students would see it as a crock.

Not necessarily. If he just says, "here's a system that works, and here's how to do it," that's perfectly valid. If he makes up a phony philosophy to wrap around it, "I learned this art from my spirit guide in the astral plane. It came to me in a dream. The boot-to-the-head maneuver symbolizes man's eternal struggle for stuff. blah, blah, blah..." then yes, it's a crock.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Phil' date=' you really just don't seem to understand what the martial arts (versus fighting) are all about.[/quote']

That may very well be the case.

 

I'm not trying to insult or impune here, just please try to listen to what folks are telling you.

Now that *is* somewhat insulting. I am listening very carefully. I sincerely want to understand here. Folks aren't telling me vary much at all. "It's hard to put into words," doesn't tell me anything.

 

There is a fundamental difference between a fighter and a martial artists. Where the lines start to blur is that a large part of martial art training is fighting -- a martial artist is a fighter, but a fighter is not (necessarily) a martial artist. Programming terms: MartialArtist extends Fighter.

And you haven't told me anything new here. I do not disparage martial arts or artists in any way. The implication I'm getting is that it's simply a matter of degree of skill that distinguishes between the labels you want to apply. To put it in B&D terms: a fighter is a 5th-level Fighter, and a martial artist is a 10th-level Fighter, or something like that.

 

Quantifying specifically where the difference lies is tricky -- anyone with experience in or knowledge of the martial arts knows and can recognize the difference....but it's difficult to put into words, particularly since you seem insistent that those words adhere to Hero System constructs.

I don't insist on any such thing. What I insist on is that a Skill that costs Character Points be useful game-mechanically.

 

If there's a karate tournament, I would call all the contestants "martial artists." Some are more skilled martial artists, some are less skilled martial artists. Some are veteran martial artists, some are novice martial artists. The champion is presumably the most skilled martial artist of the bunch. And the guy who came in dead last is the least skilled. Yes, it's possible that some idiot watched a movie and entered the tournament with no idea what he was doing and got his ass handed to him. This guy, I would not call a martial artist.

 

If I am creating a Chess master, I would give him both KS: Chess as well as PS: Chess. They're complimentary rolls, representing different aspects of that individual's training. ... Together, the two allow you to talk a good game. You can impress other players.

I'm with you so far. And yes, the KS for a martial arts style is analogous.

 

A child prodigy would likely only have the PS -- he's extremely gifted at playing the game, but has little knowledge of the background and history.

 

A veteran master would have both. He could talk to other players and evaluate both their background in the game as well as their skill. He could identify the prodigy versus the veteran player.

Right. Knowing who Bobby Fischer is or the origins of the game won't really have an impact on your ability to win a game.

 

And yes, I would be more worried about the veteran master.

Over the course of a tournament, or a career of competition, I'd agree. For one individual game, I don't think it would matter. Of course, chances are, you're never going to become a really good chess player without picking up a lot of the KS info along the way. You'll know who Bobby Fischer is because you'll have read his books on the subject and studied his games. And you won't be able to avoid finding out about the political overtones of the Fischer-Spassky match, and the various controversies over collusion and cheating and the minutia of tournament regulations. Those things will go hand in hand.

 

And the same thing will most likely happen if you seriously study a martial art style. My whole point was, if you've developed a new style yourself, there is no analogous body of knowledge around that particular style yet. If I invent a new game, "Son of Chess," I won't have KS: Son of Chess, because Son of Chess doesn't have its equivalent of Bobby Fischer or the Fischer-Spassky match, etc., yet. I may have KS: Chess (along with any number of other skills) that helped me to develop the new game Son of Chess, but there isn't yet a body of knowledge for a KS: Son of Chess to be meaningful.

 

One thing that I see repeatedly in this discussion of someone creating their own martial art is a rather serious misconception about how someone goes about creating an art. It is never done in a vacuum.

I never said or implied otherwise. In fact I've said just the opposite about four times by now.

 

I'll respond to the rest of your post soon.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

How big does a body of knowledge have to be to be meaningful? TUSk has some pretty small categories outlined.

 

 

I think the entirety of this argument is centered around the definition of a martial art, with most people assuming that a martial art by definition has a fairly sizable body of knowledge associated (at least in comparison to Edison era lightbulb technology). Anything that is too disparate a collection to have a KS is just a bag of tricks.

 

 

And that's not to say someone can't develop a bag of tricks. People do it all the time, in situations other than just fighting too. But having a bag of fighting tricks makes one a martial artist no more than having a bag of mechanic tricks makes one an engineer.