Creating a Martial Art

[ghost-angel]

Looking for some thoughts on this one.

 

Many Martial Arts involve a KS: The Art In Question.

 

Let's say you're a wandering adventurer, and you don't have a chance to learn an art from a master, but you are developing a series of maneuvers, practicing as you go, and generally becoming martially proficient.

 

Ignoring the standard path of "I'm just going to buy various CSLs" Mechanically you're character is developing a Martial Art in game.

 

Do they, or do they not, have a KS roll? I mean, it's their art and philosophy, so theoretically there's no real way they could not know anything about it.

 

On the other hand, when they settle down in the distant future and open a school to propegate their martial prowess and philosophy upon the eager masses, the students will have the KS, and presumably the Instructor has to have it to teach. . .

 

How would you treat this, from an In Game perspective?

 

(as a complete aside, UMA is a tad more useful than I originally gave it credit for. Still not sure it's The Number One Book to own after the Rules, but it's up there.)

[Edsel]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I have seen numerous characters with Martial Arts: Personal Style. I have run games with such characters and played such characters. I see no problem with it. In a case such as you describe I can see no reason to require a KS. As you say the inventor of a personal style by definition will be the only authority on that style.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

A lot of the randomly learned adventurer type "martial arts" won't need a KS, since they're mostly a collection of "moves that work", rather than a systematized philosophy. Now, if the character actually does think about the underlying truths of what works, and uses his maneuvers in a standardized way to take advantage of those truths, maybe he is moving toward what we would call a martial art in the real world, and a KS becomes a reasonable expenditure of points...particularly if he starts teaching others his new art.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

A lot of the randomly learned adventurer type "martial arts" won't need a KS' date=' since they're mostly a collection of "moves that work", rather than a systematized philosophy. Now, if the character actually does think about the underlying truths of what works, and uses his maneuvers in a standardized way to take advantage of those truths, maybe he is moving toward what we would call a martial art in the real world, and a KS becomes a reasonable expenditure of points...particularly if he starts teaching others his new art.[/quote']

 

Indeed - this is kind of where I'm going. They are creating a systemized art, not just a series of maneuvers that work.

 

But do they have to spend points on a KS, or is it simply a part of the characters makeup? I mean, it's their art, they can't not know something theoretically.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Indeed - this is kind of where I'm going. They are creating a systemized art, not just a series of maneuvers that work.

 

But do they have to spend points on a KS, or is it simply a part of the characters makeup? I mean, it's their art, they can't not know something theoretically.

 

In this case, I'd say they don't NEED a KS, but it would be necessary to properly teach the art to someone else, and may make it easier for the character to improve his own technique (in game terms, the GM lets the player spend a lot of XP on the martial art at a time, rather than a point or two at a time). Without the KS, the character has a feel for what he's doing, but doesn't fully understand the implications, and is unable to explain what he's doing to someone else.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

But do they have to spend points on a KS, or is it simply a part of the characters makeup? I mean, it's their art, they can't not know something theoretically.

 

I'd likely let them slide without a KS for things like tactics using the art and such. If they include philosophy of the art, systematic structure, kata the whole works, I'd likely just make them buy a 1 pt perk (I invented the art) and one of the SFX of the perk is the equivalent of a 23- KS in the art they invented.

 

It doesn't seem right not to let them know everything, but it doesn't seem to be worth much in the way of points, so something like a point or two, and let it be.

[caris]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Is the question "Does the character need to spend the points for the KS?" or is the question "Does the character have a justification to buy the KS?"

[Dreadnought]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

The way I'd look at it is how the character looks at the martial art. If they are taking moves that work well together and blending them together, I wouldn't get the KS. However, if the character is specifically trying to create a systemized art, I'd buy the KS. To me, having the KS means that not only do you know how the moves work and fit together, but you know WHY everything works, and can teach others.

[Checkmate]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

While I may not make them buy a KS with their specific Martial Art, I would consider making them by a generic KS: Martial Arts, to represent his smattering of knowledge of the arts he took his moves from, or even FAM's with the specific martial arts he borrowed from.

 

If he is designing he own moves, the I would certainly require a Science Skill: Martial Maneuvers, or something similar.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

What's to know? The guy made up the style. I wouldnt require a KS for it. Similarly, I don't require characters to have a KS: Style if they don't want it. Unless their teachers were really anal, I don't see any reason why a person couldnt skip the history and theory and just learn the practical app of an art.

 

Its really about what the player wants to represent with their character, what they want to play up with their roleplaying, and what the GM finds acceptable / workable in the context of their campaign. If the player wants to roleplay their character as being knowledgeable and able to "talk the talk" then they'll prioritize accordingly and take the appropriate skill(s). If they don't, then eh. So long as the GM and player can come to an agreement on what the character is all about and how they will be played its all good.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Kung Fu movies are chock full of masters who go out and invent their own styles, usually after being badly beaten by an adversary and slinking off to lick their wounds. Once they meet their old nemesis, their new fighting technique of course allows them to kick booty.

 

Obviously this would take a lot of dedication, inspiration, and perhaps time, so it's probably reasonable that a PC trying to do this have appropriate Characteristics and supplemental Skills.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Is the question "Does the character need to spend the points for the KS?" or is the question "Does the character have a justification to buy the KS?"

 

The question is the first, Do they need a KS for their own philosophy and martial style?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I'd likely let them slide without a KS for things like tactics using the art and such. If they include philosophy of the art, systematic structure, kata the whole works, I'd likely just make them buy a 1 pt perk (I invented the art) and one of the SFX of the perk is the equivalent of a 23- KS in the art they invented.

 

It doesn't seem right not to let them know everything, but it doesn't seem to be worth much in the way of points, so something like a point or two, and let it be.

 

I like this idea.

 

It, to me, goes to represnt the idea that the Character is the de facto master of their own style, art and personally philosophy behind the martial training. Rep.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I like this idea.

 

It, to me, goes to represnt the idea that the Character is the de facto master of their own style, art and personally philosophy behind the martial training. Rep.

 

Glad you liked it.

[caris]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

The question is the first' date=' Do they need a KS for their own philosophy and martial style?[/quote']

 

My answer is that a KS should go on the character sheet. Personally, because it is the way my group does things, the character wouldn't have been able to buy the manuvers until he had at least a Familiarity with the KS. In other words he would have had to start figguring out the theory and philosophy before he could apply it practically. This is the way we do it. Your group may be OK with that KS just coming out of the points spent on the manuvers, but to my sense of fair play than anyone buying the manuvers should be getting the same level and type of knowledge that your character is getting without spending points on a KS even if it is an established style.

[Rapier]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I'd say that the creator doesn't necessarily have to have a KS. After all, there is actually no 'knowledge' to skill.

 

After many years, the character has gained some students and formalised his art. All the students will get the KS and at some point the sensei will have dumped some XP into the KS himself. Part of that expenditure is the fact that he has formally codisized his art. This could be a raw expenditure of XP or just a freebie given by the GM to reflect some out-of-game stuff that the character has done.

 

This is moderately related to the "KS: Heroic Team." The characters don't need to spend points to know about their own team, but villainous groups would very much like to. Do we charge points for this? Personally, I would award them gratis.

[caris]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I'd say that the creator doesn't necessarily have to have a KS. After all, there is actually no 'knowledge' to skill.

 

After many years, the character has gained some students and formalised his art. All the students will get the KS and at some point the sensei will have dumped some XP into the KS himself. Part of that expenditure is the fact that he has formally codisized his art. This could be a raw expenditure of XP or just a freebie given by the GM to reflect some out-of-game stuff that the character has done.

 

This is moderately related to the "KS: Heroic Team." The characters don't need to spend points to know about their own team, but villainous groups would very much like to. Do we charge points for this? Personally, I would award them gratis.

 

On the other hand the villain team does not have to spend points on KS: Villain Team. No one has to spend points on KS: Personal Background; Culture Knowledge: Culture the grew up in; KS: General Trivia, or any other of a host of background knowledge that we just assume that the charactes have. When was the last time you saw Basic mathematics on character sheet or list of everyman skills? How about a character with the Science Skill: Physics also have something representing algebra, triginometry and/or calculus? The fact of the matter is that most of us assume far more things as Everyman skills than we ever put on any list we put together.

 

The situation this is most like is do other characters in the game when buying Martial Arts manuvers have to also buy a KS for the style that the manuvers represent? If they do, is the group OK with the reasoning for why this character doesn't have to spend those points?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

On the other hand the villain team does not have to spend points on KS: Villain Team. No one has to spend points on KS: Personal Background; Culture Knowledge: Culture the grew up in; KS: General Trivia, or any other of a host of background knowledge that we just assume that the charactes have. When was the last time you saw Basic mathematics on character sheet or list of everyman skills? How about a character with the Science Skill: Physics also have something representing algebra, triginometry and/or calculus? The fact of the matter is that most of us assume far more things as Everyman skills than we ever put on any list we put together.

 

The situation this is most like is do other characters in the game when buying Martial Arts manuvers have to also buy a KS for the style that the manuvers represent? If they do, is the group OK with the reasoning for why this character doesn't have to spend those points?

 

Well, the first part of your post touched on my question.

 

We don't have to pay points for KS: My Personal Background, we know this stuff.

 

So, do we have to spend points in KS: My Style Of Fighting?

 

I think Rapier has a point that once the character starts teaching their personal art they've codified it to an extent and thus start to put points into a KS that others are learning.

 

But as they're learning the art, teaching themselves through experience and practice (not taking from other arts, or mashing other arts to a new form, but a completely new martial art) do they really spend points in KS: How I'm Fighting Now?

 

I like the Perk idea personally.

 

I can see where Caris is coming from though, which is of course why I started the thread. To see how others might treat someone making up a completely new Martial Art.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

While I may not make them buy a KS with their specific Martial Art, I would consider making them by a generic KS: Martial Arts, to represent his smattering of knowledge of the arts he took his moves from, or even FAM's with the specific martial arts he borrowed from.

 

If he is designing he own moves, the I would certainly require a Science Skill: Martial Maneuvers, or something similar.

 

The last part gave me an idea.. perhaps the character might have KS: Theory Of Combat or similar. I'll have to ponder that.

[caris]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I still think that the sense of fair play should probably be the deciding factor in this situation. Do you and your play group find this to be a fair way to handle things.

 

Does your group make other people buying Martial Arts Manuvers buy KS: Martial Art Style? Do the other members of your group feel it is "OK" and "fair" for this character to buy the manuvers without buying the KS: Martial Art Style to go with it? How far do you think this concept should go? Can a mage in your fantasy world create a new style of magic by buying just the spells and know KS to go with them, for example? (Assuming of course, that your magic system requires KS: Style of magic.)

[Black Rose]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

IMO, if the character is, in-game, working to develop a structured fighting style -- which is something very different from "I know a good way to trick a guy into opening his guard around his left kidney", "I pull back and roll at the waist when I forearm block", and "quick fake to the right, drop to one hand and pivot, taking his legs out from under him" -- and it is representing a real role-playing opportunity -- the character is sacrificing time he could be spending to profit himself in another way -- then I think he should be awarded 1 XP only for KS: specific martial art on an infrequent basis. He's role-playing after all, and that's a good thing; rewarding it with an extra XP every three or four sessions isn't going to tear a hole in space-time for Istvatha V'han.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I still think that the sense of fair play should probably be the deciding factor in this situation. Do you and your play group find this to be a fair way to handle things.

 

Does your group make other people buying Martial Arts Manuvers buy KS: Martial Art Style? Do the other members of your group feel it is "OK" and "fair" for this character to buy the manuvers without buying the KS: Martial Art Style to go with it? How far do you think this concept should go? Can a mage in your fantasy world create a new style of magic by buying just the spells and know KS to go with them, for example? (Assuming of course, that your magic system requires KS: Style of magic.)

 

Since your focus is on fairness, especially in point expenditure. And KS: Things has a chance you won't know a given item of knowledge - which should be impossible for your own personal thought process...

 

Would an equivelant point expenditure in a Perk (It's My Art) as Lord Morham suggested satisfy the need to be "fair" in your games?

 

(Personally, I believe most if not all fair play comes out in the game as roleplaying, not on the sheets as points. There's always trade offs for what you do and don't buy and how you do use what you do buy...)

[pinecone]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

I have seen numerous characters with Martial Arts: Personal Style. I have run games with such characters and played such characters. I see no problem with it. In a case such as you describe I can see no reason to require a KS. As you say the inventor of a personal style by definition will be the only authority on that style.

 

Yeah, I'd only Require a KS when you syart trying to explain/teach it to others.....Just because someone can fight, does not mean they can teach it, or really explain it to others...or even them selves.

[caris]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Since your focus is on fairness' date=' especially in point expenditure. And KS: Things has a chance you won't know a given item of knowledge - which should be impossible for your own personal thought process...[/quote']

 

I respectfully disagree. The failure on this kind of KS would to me represent those aspects of the style that the character had not quite worked out yet. The roll requirement on KS can lead to interesting situations, such as the character knowing something in one adventure (i.e. succeeding), and not knowing it in a later adventure. Your example seems like a simillar situation.

 

Would an equivelant point expenditure in a Perk (It's My Art) as Lord Morham suggested satisfy the need to be "fair" in your games?

 

What is fair in my games is not the relevant question, and if you go back to my earlier posts, I stated how my group would handle the situation, if you really want to know (this situation has come up for us).

 

I pointed out multiple times that the need is to consider what the group of people you are playing with would find fair. They may find the decision to not spend any points at all to be fair. They may find that the Perk suggestion is fair. They may think that you should be spending more points to be fair.

 

(Personally' date=' I believe most if not all fair play comes out in the game as roleplaying, not on the sheets as points. There's always trade offs for what you do and don't buy and how you do use what you do buy...)[/quote']

 

Personally, I find that little of the fair play comes from the roleplaying or from what is on the sheet as points or what is in the book as rules. Fair play comes from how the people involved in the gaming treat each other, and feel about what is going on.

 

My concern was not about the points. Your posts seemed to indicate that if your character had been learning Karate, Akido, Commando Training, Boxing, etc. that you would be required to buy the appropriate KS. So the question to me is how would the people that had to live with that requirement feel about you not having to live with it? As I indicated before, I consider the answer to that question to be the one that should be the deciding factor.

[Simon]

Re: Creating a Martial Art

 

Yeah' date=' I'd only Require a KS when you syart trying to explain/teach it to others.....Just because someone can fight, does not mean they can teach it, or really explain it to others...or even them selves.[/quote']

That's the key, IMO.

 

Martial Arts begin as simply learning how to move...and how others move. What separates them from simple fighting is the philosophy. Why certain techniques work....why they don't work....techniques that have little to no physical aspect at all....that kind of thing.

 

Does it make sense for the creator of an art to have a KS in that art (and potentially not know something about it)? Absolutely. The knowledge and philosophy of an art is continually evolving. Failing a KS roll could mean that he had thought of something years back but simply can't recall the mental path that he went down (and has thus forgotten the knowledge) or that he has moved past something that he once believed and has found it to be in error (or, at least, not 'right' for his art).

 

It sounds like you're looking to mirror real-world martial arts in-game. As such, I would challenge you to find a true master (creator of a new system, master of an existing system, etc.) who is not constantly learning and changing his philosophy and practices. I've had the good fortune to meet and train with some legends in the modern martial arts and the one thing that has struck me about each and every one of them is that they are consummate students -- they are constantly looking at their art and others and learning. They don't become 'rigid' in their thinking -- those guys are very short-lived in the arts.

 

I think that a KS (with a real roll -- one that can be failed) is a great way to represent a knowledge of the philosophy that you are developing and the understanding that it is a never-ending process -- one which changes and evolves over time. One in which you are constantly correcting yourself. A player that purchases that KS and buys up the levels would (IMO) distinguish himself from the player that simply purchased Maneuvers with no KS -- the former would be a martial artist, the latter would be a fighter.