Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I have to agree that a villain built the way you describe is not going to be very successful in the world at large' date=' but why else would they present lower point characters? Is there any 350 point character who wouldn't whup Buzzsaw in under two phases? I can only assume he was created as an example of a minor nuisance character at the 250 point level.[/quote']

Here's the issue for me. VVV is supposed to be a Champions Universe sourcebook. It shouldn't be written to worry about campaigns where people are using 250 point characters because that's not what the CU is about. The characters should be written to follow the CU guidelines. You can't start jumping all over the place trying to fill everyone's needs, IMO.

 

I certainly understand the concept of a nuisance character [that's the whole point of Foxbat after all] but someone like Buzzsaw is obviously a combat character who is not even a nuisance in combat. The builds leave me to believe that they were overage characters from Predators that Steve just slapped some extra speed and dex onto to use in VVV.

 

Bottom line: I give the book a B-. I just hope the guys are going to come back with a stronger showing in the upcoming CCC.

B-? Really? How bad does something have to be to get a D on your scale?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I certainly understand the concept of a nuisance character [that's the whole point of Foxbat after all] but someone like Buzzsaw is obviously a combat character who is not even a nuisance in combat.

 

Buzzsaw's Campaign Use section says what he's there for: to get whipped. He reminds me of the Ultimate version of the Shocker: a loser with a nifty weapon who gets repeatedly trashed by Spider-Man while Spidey's on his way to an actual challenge. He makes the protagonist look good, and he provides a little extra action and humor if the story needs it.

 

I, for one, see it as a positive thing that the Champions Universe has similar characters available.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

There's a difference between mook and joke. Bulldozer's a mook. Buzzsaw [and the others like him in the book] are a joke.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Just as in comicbook universes, there's room in the CU for both mooks and jokes.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

...I certainly understand the concept of a nuisance character [that's the whole point of Foxbat after all] but someone like Buzzsaw is obviously a combat character who is not even a nuisance in combat. The builds leave me to believe that they were overage characters from Predators that Steve just slapped some extra speed and dex onto to use in VVV.

 

 

B-? Really? How bad does something have to be to get a D on your scale?

 

European Enemies (4th Ed?) was an F for me, Cyber Hero of the same vintage was D-. Of the new stuff, I have only been disappointed in one other purchase I've made. I did not like DC:TAS as much as I thought I would. I gave that a C-.

 

I wonder if you may be right about some of these characters working better in a DC or DC:TAS game. I hadn't thought of that right of the bat, but then again DC: TAS is basically a 250 point game with a few quirks.

[Loxly]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Did you never hand out XP?

 

Did ... all the time.

 

So did all the other people in the group that ran thier game.

 

As GMs, setting*, new players joined, or power levels changed, we "reset" the points to 250. Or lower, if the power-level went down.

 

* ... Some setting where like CU where supers were common. Others where like "Mutant X" where we were "new" and the points were 150ish.

[Guest Goradin]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

So boost him up to fit in your campaign, MitchellS, I know you clearly have enough knowledge to do that. I have not seen the book yet as mine is in transit.

 

Arrange a radiation accident or an appointment with Telios perhaps, maybe an Evil Sorcerer can grant him more powers similiar to what Loki did for the Absorbing Man? It would be a compelling storyline how they beat us on him and he vows revenge, makes a deal with a devil, roids up in one of the above ways and viola the battle royale ensues. Makes for a great storyline.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

If it's a choice between characters with lower or higher power levels than I'm comfortable with, I prefer the former. IME it's generally easier to add things to characters to power them up, than to strip away things to weaken them.

 

Anyway, I get the impression that few gamers (myself included) run characters exactly as written.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

If it's a choice between characters with lower or higher power levels than I'm comfortable with, I prefer the former. IME it's generally easier to add things to characters to power them up, than to strip away things to weaken them.

 

Anyway, I get the impression that few gamers (myself included) run characters exactly as written.

I have no problem with rewriting characters to my needs [i've been doing it for years and I'm always converting Champions characters to M&M]. What I have a problem with are characters that aren't even in the ballpark of being usable for the game. I don't have much use for a character like Vesper with his 6d6 punch, 4 speed, and 12/10 defense. An average Viper agent is 8d6, 3 speed, and 10 defense.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Etu... Monkey Boy Evo Art from Superbuddies.net

 

 

LOL

 

 

QM

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Did you never hand out XP?

 

Getting experience can be very different from starting points being increased, IME. Generally a 350 point base character looks differenntly than a 250 point character with 100 experience.

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

My groups Champions games have been 250 points or less for the last 25 years ... up to about a month ago when I up the starting points to 350.

 

They went: "350?!?! "

 

I ususally start with 350 but I have found that 250 leads to more variety among the characters. Everyone doesn't have all or most things at the max campaign values (at least not without serious optimization) so there's more need to team work to cover each others' weaknesses. OTOH, it can lead to frustration for some players because they can't build their character "right" but you can hear that at any point total.

 

I'm interested in Vvv specifically because it has "weaker" characters. I have some games they sound perfect for.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Funniest thing recently I tried to rebuild a few of my original 250pt characters as 350pt characters and two out four ended up 250pts.

 

Weird

 

 

QM

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

If it's a choice between characters with lower or higher power levels than I'm comfortable with, I prefer the former. IME it's generally easier to add things to characters to power them up, than to strip away things to weaken them.

 

Anyway, I get the impression that few gamers (myself included) run characters exactly as written.

 

True.

 

I just got the book and leafed through it. It's okay, not as great as CKC, but good.

 

And I like Lynx -- Furry Fandom can count as a Knowledge Skill now? I guess we've finally become accepted by geekdom at large.

 

Though if Mister Brain-in-a-Jug wanted to recruit any more potential animal-people, then believe me, if he set up a table at a furry con he'd get more potential beastmen flunkies than he'd know what to do with.

 

For that matter, the beastman drug that Snake Fatale has been pushing in 52 would go over big too. I might even give it a look myself. For purely academic reasons, of course.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I think we should lay off the art criticism a bit as Sketchpad who posts here is one of the artists. If anyone has USPD and then compares the original pics of Fleshtone and Entropy for example with his then they could say they preferred the originals. Expectation on these was high.

Overall the art is simple and can be straight adapted. Not the case obviously with Grenadier, Granite Man and some others but if you see the book you know what I mean.

 

Could the whole book have been better ? Yes. Will many of us buy it regardless ? Yes.

 

Thanks Death Tribble Honestly guys, I have a pretty thick skin. We all have our bad days, and from what I've read in this thread, this book seems to be mine I just hope people enjoy the book and use what they can in their campaigns ... I won't offer excuses, I'll just say I'll try to do better with the next work that I do (see the next Digital Hero).

If I may ask one thing though, if you didn't like the art, especially mine, please let me know what you didn't like about it An artist is only as good as his feedback and I'd like to do better the next time around Many thanks.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Now that is a classy response.

[Guest Goradin]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Agreed, he will make it in this world with an attitude like that.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Thanks Death Tribble Honestly guys, I have a pretty thick skin. We all have our bad days, and from what I've read in this thread, this book seems to be mine I just hope people enjoy the book and use what they can in their campaigns ... I won't offer excuses, I'll just say I'll try to do better with the next work that I do (see the next Digital Hero).

If I may ask one thing though, if you didn't like the art, especially mine, please let me know what you didn't like about it An artist is only as good as his feedback and I'd like to do better the next time around Many thanks.

I don't consider the art to be the major issue with the book [though I don't necessarily like most of the art in the book]. You can use a good character in your game even if you don't like the picture [and you can use a good picture even if you don't like the write-up].

 

The problem with VVV, IMO, is that the character choices are uninspiring, the backgrounds are uninteresting, and the write-ups are ill-conceived and unoriginal. That doesn't mean every character in the book was bad but for me the needles were well hidden in the hay stack.

[Guzalot]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I just got my copy about a week ago. I agree that a large portion of the artwork is sub-par and some of it is downright bad. Unlike many of the other posters here, I really like the Brain Trust and the Crimelords. They are about the right power level for the campaign that I co-GM, where the characters started at 300 points and most are now in the 325 to 350 range. They are also generic enough to drop into just about any plotline for whatever reason I need at the moment.

 

Though some of the other villains in the book will never see the light of day in my games there are enough good ones for me to say that I think it's money well spent. Sunspot, Spirit Dragon, Plague and The Curse are some favorites. Overall, I give it 3 out of 5 stars.

[Guzalot]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Thanks Death Tribble Honestly guys, I have a pretty thick skin. We all have our bad days, and from what I've read in this thread, this book seems to be mine I just hope people enjoy the book and use what they can in their campaigns ... I won't offer excuses, I'll just say I'll try to do better with the next work that I do (see the next Digital Hero).

If I may ask one thing though, if you didn't like the art, especially mine, please let me know what you didn't like about it An artist is only as good as his feedback and I'd like to do better the next time around Many thanks.

Which artwork is yours?

[Sketchpad]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Which artwork is yours?

IIRC, Gauntlet, Galaxia, Fleshtone, Exo, Entopy, Curse, Dreamwitch, Buzzsaw, Blindside, Basilisk and Avant Guard ...

[Guzalot]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

IIRC' date=' Gauntlet, Galaxia, Fleshtone, Exo, Entopy, Curse, Dreamwitch, Buzzsaw, Blindside, Basilisk and Avant Guard ...[/quote']

I actually really like the artwork for Avant Guard and Curse. In fact, those are two of my favorite characters in the book. On that list, the ones that I did not like are Fleshtone and Basilisk. They just came off as..."bland" is the best word I can think of. Basilisk for example had very little detail, he's just a line drawing. He almost looks like a template with the details left unfinished, like you used to find on the old character sheets.

 

And thank you for the opportunity to give some feedback. As Liaden said, it's a classy move on your part.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I actually really like the artwork for Avant Guard and Curse. In fact, those are two of my favorite characters in the book. On that list, the ones that I did not like are Fleshtone and Basilisk. They just came off as..."bland" is the best word I can think of. Basilisk for example had very little detail, he's just a line drawing. He almost looks like a template with the details left unfinished, like you used to find on the old character sheets.

 

And thank you for the opportunity to give some feedback. As Liaden said, it's a classy move on your part.

Thanks Guzalot I'll see what I can do to detail some of the characters a bit more when I do assignments.

[Guest Goradin]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I just got it and it was an entertaining read. I liked it a lot better than some here did. Worth the cost. I do not buy books to gaze at the art or color them so the artwork didn't bother me.

 

Sure some of the NPCs were underpowered. I can fix the underpowered goons with some minor work and hero even includes how to do this and each of the underpowered ones had plot lines involving NPCs to increase their powers like say Wayland Talos.

 

My favs were probably Rictus and Flextone. Though, I found that Orion and Galaxia had neat story provoking backgrounds.

[Theron]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I've got it and am enjoying it. In fact, it's probably going to be the main source of villainy for my next campaign, provided I can get my butt in gear and put it together.