Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Gossamer Storm and the other 4E Squaders from Watchers Of The Dragon would be easy to update to 5E. There's no reason they couldn't still be part of that 50+ member superteam.

 

I've also adapted a few of the less criminal members of Ying (from Murderers Row) to Tiger Squad-hood.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Well....in my campaign, I briefly had Radium as part of The Ultimates(as per 5th), but as he didn't really seem to fit in(a mute loner among villains who generally enjoy each other's company), I replaced him with Anklosaur...who seemd a better fit. Radium will likely return to Sunburst's fold(along with a 5th update of Ray)

 

Rob

 

When I used Project Sunburst for my 4E campaign, Ray and Radium were both part of the group, along with Randal Gordon (who was and is Armadillo in official CU continuity). However, I put Gordon in the more powerful Dreadnought armor (from Classic Enemies). I decided that the beneficial mutation he gained from Project Sunburst was immunity to radiation, so that the normally lethal rad leakage from the Dreadnought's power plant would have no effect on him.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I didnt care for the artwork for Project Sunburst much, but it was markedly better than most of the rest of the book.

 

My big problem with this group is that its very one dimensional. If your PC's are good at dealing w/ energy attacks then they will find this team a bit weak. If they arent, a bit strong. An offbeat team could very well skate thru or have no answers at all depending on their bent...its just too far in one direction for my tastes.

 

Kind of an "eh" for me.

 

The Tiger Squad also was kind of "eh". None of the characters had "cool" factor.

 

 

The only villain that really caught my eye and made me go "hmm" was Grenade, and only because she had a neat custom gimmick power.

 

The art for the Crimelords was the best in the book, and had a vestige of an interesting concept, but the actual characters were boring, and the point distributions were all over the place. The leader is sub 300 and the weak link of the team and her rival in a love triangle is in the 700's. Just didnt make a lot of sense to me.

 

 

Whenever a book like this just kind of leaves me cold though I try to make a practice of putting it down and coming back to it later to see if I was just in a "eh" mood when I read it or if it really is just blase. So...we'll see in a week or so.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Oddly enough, this is a good sign from my PoV. What I need for my campaign right now *are* mooks with schticks, who I can develop or not as I need.

[Cardinal]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I would generally agree that I found much of the art disappointing. I thought the Tiger Squad did a great job of providing pretty much every personality variant you could get on an opposing hero team (bad guy in cover of authority, good guy who believes in communism, good guy who is a pro-democracy, etc.).

 

Like CUNOTW, I was a bit surprised at the builds. There were a number of characters who forwent an EC for no apparent reason (e.g. Summer Cloud). While others are absolutely framework happy. Morgaine is just itching to break out a four-way MPA on some happless hero. I also was surprised to see so many heroes in CUNOTW and VVV with End Bat. It seems like the accessory of the year for the fashionable super.

 

Some of the villains were absolutely over the top in terms of powersets (e.g. The Curse), but intentionally so. Others were very low power. In short, it was exactly the full range of characters that they promised.

 

BTW, does anyone know if Darren, Steve, et al plan on releasing HDC files for CUNOTW and VVV? How long does it normally take to turn those around?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I like the greater use of END Reserves. They let you make heroes that don't need 0 END on everything, and can still use their powers for extended periods without also needing superhuman stamina. Kinetik should perhaps have one too.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

My take on the solos:

 

Ambush: Ok. Usable, but a bit boring

 

Arachne: Yawn

 

Avant Guard: Not my style -- way too silly

 

Basilisk: Basically unusable due to bs Transform

 

Blackguard: Meat & potatoes, but I've already got a pile of characters in this same vein

 

Blindside: Usable. If I didnt already have similar characters of my own design I might actually do something with this character in a higher point game.

 

Buzzsaw: Worthless...his only attack is 1d6 KA with AP and Autofire x5. AP in 1d6? In a setting where half of even the RECOMMENDED would still exceed what you can roll on a d6? Penetrating would have at least have been useful vs non hardened armor. Circular file this one.

 

The Curse: Unusable. And the first of many "leering death head" villains in the book.

 

Dreamwitch: Usable core, but I'd have to restructure this character to use it. And she has a 6 SPD why? Justified by what? Her dream powers? :thumbsdown:

 

Entropy: Leering deaths head #2....basically usable I guess. Not very exciting to me. Also, would have some real serious END issues.

 

EXO: basically usable. I have a feeling he'll become a target for Makeshift

 

Fleshtone: Leering deaths head #3, and also unusable. Not my style for supers at all.

 

Galaxia: goofy concept, usable build.

 

Gauntlet: Got a grab-bag multipower, but other than that is basically ok. Unfortunately I already have a villain of my own named Gauntlet...maybe Ill make a side story out of the two of them duking it out over the name in an SNN segue.

 

Geos: Serviceable geomancer.

 

Grenade: like the object charging custom mechanic. I'd use this character as part of a group, but she's far too weak to solo.

 

Grotesque: Eh.

 

Kanrok: I don't get into the Kirby space shtick. Not my thing. Pass

 

Lash: He'd be pretty badaz is certain kinds of Dark Champions campaigns, but he's just too anemic to be usable in most supers games. Still, nothing wrong with the structure of the character overall.

 

Leviathan: If you're using Lemuria in your setting, usable. If not, usable with some refactoring.

 

Magnetica: Ill have to double back and reread this character later. I sense something usable there, but I want to cross reference w/ any other magnetics types.

 

Mantisman: Beetle homage. Some might be into it. For me its a pass.

 

Megavolt: Usable. I like the Ionize ability, but it should be bought outside the Multipower so he can keep it on while blasting at full strength.

 

Mindgame: Eh. Usable, not very interesting. SPD 5 too high for the concept IMO.

 

Momentum: Pass. We already got Holocaust, this guys just a chumpy knock off. Also, characters that have over half their points in a VPP can be very good and accurately model an concept pretty well. Or they can be like this guy, just vague and ill defined.

 

Onslaught: Usable, but I've already got a pile of (better) characters very similar. Heck, you can almost sneeze out a light Brick MA, they're so easy.

 

Orion: awful art, dopey eye roller of a background, boring build. Should call him "kitchen sink man". Way too similar to Gauntlet who appears in the same book in broad brushstrokes.

 

Overdrive: Hey look. I had a character very much like this called the Mod. When I did it people said it was cheesy and munchkin. This guy is much more extreme with it...so either I wasn't off base after all or this character is cheesy and munchkin. Hmm.

 

Plague: awful awful art. either that or its just very abstract. Anyway, another unusable character IMO. Way too dark.

 

Python: looks like the same artist as did Plague, but this one is actually pretty ok. Generally usable shtick-brick, but how is Only To Grab only worth a -1/2 of STR? Without even No Figured being applied as well, even? That's total bs. STR does so many things its mindboggling. Only To Grab should be at least a -1, and NFC should also be applied.

 

Ricochet: Eh. I greatly prefer my own villain named Ricochet. pass.

 

Rictus: doesnt suit my style, but I can see WilyQuixote using him if he were to be GM again. He loves that zombie stuff.

 

SARGON: Usable. I'll probably incorporate into the setting...I can see Makeshift setting his sights on this guy as his armor is a bit different.

 

Smoke & Mirrors: I intensely dislike themed villains like this. How convenient, mutant siblings who independently manifested two different power sets that happen to match an old saying like "Smoke & Mirrors". Bleh.

 

Spirit Dragon: one dimensional but usable.

 

Sunspot: wheres Cannonball, Wolfsbane, Cypher, and the gang? Anyway, eh on the character. Yet another END Res based blaster.

 

syzygy: huh? Mechanon Lite; the Diet Pepsi of human crushing robotic evil. Not quite evil enough. Passsssss.

 

 

Terrayne Between Graniteman, Geos, and this guy, all your earth elemental needs should be met. Or in my case exceeded. Pass.

 

Timelapse: another basically unusable character. Either your PC's don't have adequate Power Defense in which case they are hosed, or they do and this guy is useless. Rock Paper Scissors.

 

 

Vesper: Hey look, its Man-Bat. Vesper is such a waste of a good name on this guy (but I think Ill continue to let my own Vesper retain it). Yet another pass.

 

 

Pretty grim tally, really.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I like the greater use of END Reserves. They let you make heroes that don't need 0 END on everything' date=' and can still use their powers for extended periods without also needing superhuman stamina. Kinetik should perhaps have one too.[/quote']

End Reserve is a power unto itself and when you take it you're really saying that the ability to run your powers comes from an outside source rather then being part of your innate physiology. If Kinetik's ability to keep running comes from getting energy from the Speed Zone then it makes sense to have an End Reserve. If not then it should be part of the normal end usage of a character.

 

I do find it funny that there are more published characters with End Reserve in CU:NotW and VVV then there are in the rest of the books combined [not including powered armored/gadget characters]. It seems as though the folks at Hero Games have figured out that you can munchkin points by using End Reserve over buying reduced end.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I like the greater use of END Reserves. They let you make heroes that don't need 0 END on everything' date=' and can still use their powers for extended periods without also needing superhuman stamina. Kinetik should perhaps have one too.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I like it ad I think it's a good idea myself. Allows you to make characters who are normal humans Characteristic-wise, but they still have the energy needed to bust out the Energy Blasts and Force Fields.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

It also provides a much cleaner "vulnerability". Instead of needing to target a whole power set with adjustment powers, whack the END Reserve with a Suppress or Drain or Dispel or such. Suddenly, the character can't use his powers, either at all or without burning double END out of their own personal pool.

[name_tamer]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I've always wondered why more characters don't have END reserves. They seem very efficient, and for certain conceptions, very in-genre.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

It also provides a much cleaner "vulnerability". Instead of needing to target a whole power set with adjustment powers' date=' whack the END Reserve with a Suppress or Drain or Dispel or such. Suddenly, the character can't use his powers, either at all or without burning double END out of their own personal pool.[/quote']

 

That thought had occurred to me as well. Gives the poor agents a nice way to level the playing ground betwene them and those stuck-up heroes.*

 

* -- Just so long as it only happens rarely. You do it every story, your players will use your head for a volleyball.

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

My personal preference is not to use End reserves unless there is some conceptual reason that character's powers are drawing on some pool of power that isn't connected to their physical stamina like a Mana, an power battery, Vampire's Blood Pool or Aberrant's Quantum.

[death tribble]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Well it did come to these shores this week and I have it.

 

I take what people have already said about the artwork but am glad to see the likes of The Curse Dreamwitch, Entropy, Fleshtone and Plague make their proper debut.

Nice to see the Brain and Monsieur Mallah, sorry Overbrain and Ape Plus.

 

The rest I need to look at with more diligence

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

...but am glad to see the likes of The Curse Dreamwitch' date=' [b']Entropy[/b], Fleshtone and Plague make their proper debut.

 

So...you like villains that have attacks that not only do most PC superheroes have little or no defense against, but also can affect permanent highly undesirable changes on those PC's (assuming they don't kill them outright)? Not to mention the effects of their powers on background NPC's.

 

Personally, The Curse, Fleshtone, and Plague are all far too dark and grotesque for the kind of supers games I run, and Entropy is in that general direction as well. Do you run a darker style game?

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

So...you like villains that have attacks that not only do most PC superheroes have little or no defense against' date=' but also can affect permanent highly undesirable changes on those PC's (assuming they don't kill them outright)? Not to mention the effects of their powers on background NPC's.[/quote']

I think he's just happy to see them make it into the game since we've known about them for such a long time.

 

Personally, The Curse, Fleshtone, and Plague are all far too dark and grotesque for the kind of supers games I run, and Entropy is in that general direction as well. Do you run a darker style game?

I do run a darker style of game [i like the new DEMON] but even then many of these characters wouldn't fit in my game. I don't find Fleshtone to be too bad but when compiled with the others it seems to become redundant [too many characters doing the same basic thing].

 

Putting the poor artwork and uninspired backgrounds aside, I find most of these characters are just incredibly poorly constructed. Dexes and defenses all over the place with a general reduction in Con in many cases due to using End Reserves. That leaves far too many characters who can be stunned by simple 10d6-11d6 attacks.

 

On top of that many of the characters are just cookie-cutter in design. It's like Steve opened the USPD and just picked things right out of the book without any thought of originality. Do we really need another brick like Dreadnaught who has the same "brick trick" multipower everyone else has? Where's the originality? Does the mentalists have to have the same 60 point multipowers with the same mind control, mental illusion, ego attack that everyone has?

 

I'm not even going to try to figure out the Dark Champions power level characters like Ambush, Arachne, Buzzsaw, Lynx, and others. What game has use for characters whose damage is in the 3 to 6 DC range?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I am with you Killer Shrike, but sometimes its nice to make the Players think twice about engaging someone that dangerous.

 

I think it adds a element of self preservation.

 

QM

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I think he's just happy to see them make it into the game since we've known about them for such a long time.

 

 

I do run a darker style of game [i like the new DEMON] but even then many of these characters wouldn't fit in my game. I don't find Fleshtone to be too bad but when compiled with the others it seems to become redundant [too many characters doing the same basic thing].

 

Putting the poor artwork and uninspired backgrounds aside, I find most of these characters are just incredibly poorly constructed. Dexes and defenses all over the place with a general reduction in Con in many cases due to using End Reserves. That leaves far too many characters who can be stunned by simple 10d6-11d6 attacks.

 

On top of that many of the characters are just cookie-cutter in design. It's like Steve opened the USPD and just picked things right out of the book without any thought of originality. Do we really need another brick like Dreadnaught who has the same "brick trick" multipower everyone else has? Where's the originality? Does the mentalists have to have the same 60 point multipowers with the same mind control, mental illusion, ego attack that everyone has?

 

I'm not even going to try to figure out the Dark Champions power level characters like Ambush, Arachne, Buzzsaw, Lynx, and others. What game has use for characters whose damage is in the 3 to 6 DC range?

 

 

I think they were trying to present a broad range of characters at every power level. I assume some people still play lower powered games. I do agree that some of the builds were repetitive, based on some of the other write ups from the past. I wonder if they were trying to present some of the USPD material for people who do not have the books. Just a thought. My two cents: this is not European Enemies, it's just not as good as CKC. I would use about 60% of the characters as written and tweak some others. Ther are a few I would only use as plot devices, i.e. The Curse.

 

I have noticed a difference between Steve and Darren's write ups. I wonder if I am imagining this. Darren leans heavily toward the old NCM, while Steve is more likely to go up through the new normal person cap of 30. I would probably go Darren's way,if I had to choose. I think many characters sink a lot of point sinto DEX and SPD before they even get around to their conception. However, I don't always know how all these characters would be able to interact with one another.

 

Unless I'm wrong and Steve is just mixing up the power levels to show differnt ways of building things.

[Loxly]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I assume some people still play lower powered games.

 

My groups Champions games have been 250 points or less for the last 25 years ... up to about a month ago when I up the starting points to 350.

 

They went: "350?!?! "

[death tribble]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I think he's just happy to see them make it into the game since we've known about them for such a long time.

 

That is it in a nutshell.

 

I think we should lay off the art criticism a bit as Sketchpad who posts here is one of the artists. If anyone has USPD and then compares the original pics of Fleshtone and Entropy for example with his then they could say they preferred the originals. Expectation on these was high.

Overall the art is simple and can be straight adapted. Not the case obviously with Grenadier, Granite Man and some others but if you see the book you know what I mean.

 

Could the whole book have been better ? Yes. Will many of us buy it regardless ? Yes.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

My groups Champions games have been 250 points or less for the last 25 years ... up to about a month ago when I up the starting points to 350.

 

They went: "350?!?! "

 

Did you never hand out XP?

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I think they were trying to present a broad range of characters at every power level. I assume some people still play lower powered games.

I'm sure there are people playing Teen Champions games and such but the CU was set up for 350 point play. Villains with 11 defense, 18 con, and 6d6 attacks really aren't going to go far in the CU.

 

I do agree that some of the builds were repetitive, based on some of the other write ups from the past. I wonder if they were trying to present some of the USPD material for people who do not have the books. Just a thought.

It's possible, but IMO we're paying Hero Games for their creativity. I can buy USPD and pick from a list all by myself. I don't need to pay Steve or Darren to do that for me.

 

I have noticed a difference between Steve and Darren's write ups. I wonder if I am imagining this. Darren leans heavily toward the old NCM, while Steve is more likely to go up through the new normal person cap of 30.

It does seem as if Steve and Darren have two different campaign levels when writing for the CU. I don't see much of Steve going through 30 though. Steve tends to make a lot of 20 dex characters and tends to cap-out around 27 or so in most cases.

[name_tamer]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

IMO we're paying Hero Games for their creativity.

 

And here I thought we were paying them for the art. [/snark]

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I'm sure there are people playing Teen Champions games and such but the CU was set up for 350 point play. Villains with 11 defense' date=' 18 con, and 6d6 attacks really aren't going to go far in the CU. [/quote']

 

I have to agree that a villain built the way you describe is not going to be very successful in the world at large, but why else would they present lower point characters? Is there any 350 point character who wouldn't whup Buzzsaw in under two phases? I can only assume he was created as an example of a minor nuisance character at the 250 point level.

 

It's possible, but IMO we're paying Hero Games for their creativity. I can buy USPD and pick from a list all by myself. I don't need to pay Steve or Darren to do that for me.

 

Yeah, I feel you. I'm not happy with some of the write ups in this book, as I said. I'm just trying to figure out what happened, and that seemed like a logical explanation.

 

 

It does seem as if Steve and Darren have two different campaign levels when writing for the CU. I don't see much of Steve going through 30 though. Steve tends to make a lot of 20 dex characters and tends to cap-out around 27 or so in most cases.

 

It was just a thought. I just notice that Darren seems to spend less on DEX and SPD for the same concepts sometimes.

 

 

Bottom line: I give the book a B-. I just hope the guys are going to come back with a stronger showing in the upcoming CCC.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Teamwork and Coordinated Attacks make all the difference.

 

 

Lots of bad guys too.

 

 

QM