Rant? Speed in Hero

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Why aren't you railing against supposed munchkins who buy their CON and STUN up along with their STR instead of leaving those numbers at their base levels?

 

Oh, I will. Coming soon.................

 

Rant: Con in Hero!

 

At a forum near you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Could someone please summarise the first 15 pages of this thread so that I can weigh in with an informed opinion?

 

Much obliged.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Could someone please summarise the first 15 pages of this thread so that I can weigh in with an informed opinion?

 

Much obliged.

 

"SPD is hosed"

"No it's not"

"Uh-huh"

"Nuh-uh"

etc

etc

[archermoo]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

His nerve impulses traveled at the speed of electricity before' date=' and the most that his concept justifies IMO is a 2 Speed bump to 4.[/quote']

 

As a note, unless he was a robot his nerve impulses in fact did not travel at the

"speed of electricity". Nerve impluses travel at the speed of ions moving through a semi-permeable membrane. Most figures for nerve impulse propagation that I've seen put it somewhere between 20 and 120 meters per second, depending on circumstances. Electrical impulses on the other hand travel at a significant percentage of the speed of light. Exactly what percentage depends on what medium they are traveling through.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

"SPD is hosed"

"No it's not"

"Uh-huh"

"Nuh-uh"

etc

etc

 

Thank you, Captain. Now I feel I know my subject, I might contribute an additional 'etc', and bid you all good night.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

As a note, unless he was a robot his nerve impulses in fact did not travel at the

"speed of electricity". Nerve impluses travel at the speed of ions moving through a semi-permeable membrane. Most figures for nerve impulse propagation that I've seen put it somewhere between 20 and 120 meters per second, depending on circumstances. Electrical impulses on the other hand travel at a significant percentage of the speed of light. Exactly what percentage depends on what medium they are traveling through.

 

Damn you and your 'knowledge'.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I apologize to anyone who finds the term 'munchkin' offensive. I consider it to indicate a certain state in roleplaying when players are tweaking their cha's for maximum efficiency regardless of concept' date=' and as such not inherently good or bad. I think that Hero games attracts such players, and that everyone here by nature falls into that category, as the constant tweaking of guys, the shaving of a point here and a point there is the essence of munchkinhood.[/quote']

 

Munchkin is almost always meant 1) as an insult and 2) to identify Power Gamers, usually the kind that attempts to use the rules to their advantage and/or others detriment 3) is most cases this is someone who believes the idea is "to win"

 

Character Optimization is pretty much what you defined there - and every single RPG on the planet has those. Some of the worst ones are D20 players with the million Prestige Classes to work with.

 

Welcome to my ignore list.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

If anything' date=' CON is more out of line than STR. Find a Super with a CON 20 or less. They're very scarce. Virtually every Super has a 23+ CON, above NCM. Again, this could be scaled back, but it would be tougher, even, than scaling back DEX, due to the Stunning rules.[/quote']Zl'f, my munchkin character (according to Nekkidcarpenter's definition), has a CON of 18. While I've toyed with the idea of upping it to 19 or 20, I'm not really inclined to do so. Fragility (compared to other supers) is part of her basic character concept. If she gets too tough through increased defenses or Characteristics I'll be diluting the concept.

 

I shudder to think what she'd look like if I actually practiced munchkinism. With 81 XP, it wouldn't be pretty.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

No' date=' I haven't changed my mind about a scientist hit by lightning having justification for 6 Speed. His nerve impulses traveled at the speed of [i']ions traveling through a semi-permeable membrane [/i]before, and the most that his concept justifies IMO is a 2 Speed bump to 4.

In general I prefer to allow players to build their own characters as their concept sees fit. If a character would be unbalancing or otherwise unsuitable for the campaign, then I'll just tell them so and let them made suitable changes rather than assuming that I'm somehow better at discerning a valid concept than my players are. Just because I prefer Batman to Superman doesn't mean either is invalid as a superhero concept. Thinking I'm better at recognizing an interesting concept than a player smacks of hubris. With 5 co-GM's in my group, hubris doesn't fly very well.

 

Munchkinism, in mild or even severe forms, is only a problem if the majority of players in a campaign don't do it. If everyone in the game is doing it, then it should be reasonably balanced and everyone should have fun. And isn't the the whole point of the exercise?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

In general I prefer to allow players to build their own characters as their concept sees fit. If a character would be unbalancing or otherwise unsuitable for the campaign, then I'll just tell them so and let them made suitable changes rather than assuming that I'm somehow better at discerning a valid concept than my players are. Just because I prefer Batman to Superman doesn't mean either is invalid as a superhero concept. Thinking I'm better at recognizing an interesting concept than a player smacks of hubris. With 5 co-GM's in my group, hubris doesn't fly very well.

 

Munchkinism, in mild or even severe forms, is only a problem if the majority of players in a campaign don't do it. If everyone in the game is doing it, then it should be reasonably balanced and everyone should have fun. And isn't the the whole point of the excercise?

 

It doesn't just smack of hubris, it crosses over into elitism.

 

It says "my character concepts are not only better than yours, but more correct than yours."

[Ultraman]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Something I have been toying with is changing all the base stats to 20. This would make differences on the low end less severe. Years ago I thought I would just increase the base speed to 3, to keep someone with one more or less speed than normal from being either hugely effective or hugely in-effective. Then I saw the same problem with strength and the like and hit on the idea of just making all base stats = 20. This would raise the base speed to 3. This would also make endurance and stun 40, which would make combats last much longer on the lower end.

One way to make skill levels more cost effective would be to remove the speed contribution from dex. Currently most people have add points to speed, so an increase in CV really only costs a net 6 points, raising that to 9 points makes skill levels much more attractive.

I also considered lowering DCV by 2. For Martial Arts I would maybe add 1 to DCV for all the maneuvers, but in general I would prefer to see equal opponents hitting more often than not unless your opponent is blocking or dodging. The basis I would use, would be to add a size stat of 10. Each multiple of 5 lowers your DCV by 1. Growth and shirking powers would modify this stat.

[Certified]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Thank you' date=' Captain. Now I feel I know my subject, I might contribute an additional 'etc', and bid you all good night.[/quote']

 

etc

[eternal_sage]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

to OP, congrats, you have made a simple list to explain your take on a complex concept to the players in your game. this is a good thing. if it works for you, whatever, thats the point. the intention of speed is not, in my opinion, relevant, so much as the fact that your players can now look at this list and have a general idea of what the house standards are for the attribute. its just like the charts at the begining of the 5th ed revised rulebook, which have Sherlock Holmes and Hercules on them.

 

to the dissent, i think as a whole, your arguements are valid, altough i'm not sure that they are meaningful. by this, i simply mean: i see your point, but i find little reason to care about it, because i do not use your ideas at my table, therefore my ideas are more important. if you were my GM, then your point would be valid, not mine. i personally see the arguement to be mostly semantic in nature.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I'm practicing my threadomancy.

She hits all the time before and after the change. Nothing has changed. Assume a character has 35 DEX' date=' and 8 levels. He can have a 12 - 20 OCV and a 20 - 12 DCV. At midpoint, it's 16 each. Assume the typical opponent has OCV 11, DCV 10. R[ainbow'] A[rcher] will pretty much always hit (needs 17-) and the opponent needs a 5-, so won't hit very often.

 

Drop her DEX 9 to 26 and she has an OCV and DCV of 9 - 17. Assuming she splits levels evenly, she has 13 in each. Her opponent's DEX also fell 9, so he has OCV 8, DCV 7. RA still hits on 17- and the opponent needs 5-. All we do by lowering the DEX'es is lower everyone's CV by 3 from where it sat before.

The fundamental flaw with this "drop DEX by nine/drop SPD by one" approach is that it simply makes CSL's far more attractive (and proportionately less expensive to boot); and with the points saved by the lowered DEX/SPD many characters will be able to actually end up with higher CV's than they had before the selldown. If players are going to be forced to have their PC's potentially hit less often because of lower SPD then they're going to compensate for that by buying more levels to hit more often in those fewer Phases they can act. It's only human nature.

 

This goes right back to the problems invariably created by campaign caps: If you artificially limit what characters can spend their points on, then they'll simply spend those points on other things to compensate for that perceived weakness. Bricks can hit for 12d6 max? Then they'll buy up their defenses and/or increase the probability of hitting to improve the odds.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I'm practicing my threadomancy.The fundamental flaw with this "drop DEX by nine/drop SPD by one" approach is that it simply makes CSL's far more attractive (and proportionately less expensive to boot); and with the points saved by the lowered DEX/SPD many characters will be able to actually end up with higher CV's than they had before the selldown. If players are going to be forced to have their PC's potentially hit less often because of lower SPD then they're going to compensate for that by buying more levels to hit more often in those fewer Phases they can act. It's only human nature.

 

My assumption is that this is an across the board drop in DEX and SPD which could have been done from the outset (in which case we'd never have known the difference) or is agreed to between the players and GM overall, so the points saved are not spent in a manner designed to defeat the purpose of the overall reduction.

 

Certainly, if you single out one character and require him to drop DEX by 9 and SPD by 1 becaudse, say, his background says "normal human", he's going to want to compensate to stay competetive. If the change is made across the board, no one should feel pressured to buy up CV some other way to compensate, since there's nothing to compensate for.

 

It's no different from agreeing that combats take too long, so everyone (PC and NPC alike) will reduce their defenses by about 10 on average, or that everyone will raise their attacks by 3 DC's to compensate. We're shifting the baseline. [To that example, I've sometimes considered rebuilding all the villains to average3 DC's more than the heroes, and defenses 10 lower, to make for faster combats. Same result but not implemented across the board as the PC's stay where they were.]

 

This goes right back to the problems invariably created by campaign caps: If you artificially limit what characters can spend their points on' date=' then they'll simply spend those points on other things to compensate for that perceived weakness. Bricks can hit for 12d6 max? Then they'll buy up their defenses and/or increase the probability of hitting to improve the odds.[/quote']

 

I think campaign caps are a different issue. Treb, if your game featured characters with DEX 11 - 20 and SPD 3 - 5, ignoriing Z'lf, would you really feel you needed a 43 DEX and SPD 9 to be "the fastest person alive", or would a combination of, say, 33 DEX, 8 SPD and the co-GMs' assurance [to the same level you have it now] that this was, and would remain, the highest DEX and SPD in the game suffice?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

My assumption is that this is an across the board drop in DEX and SPD which could have been done from the outset (in which case we'd never have known the difference) or is agreed to between the players and GM overall, so the points saved are not spent in a manner designed to defeat the purpose of the overall reduction.

 

Certainly, if you single out one character and require him to drop DEX by 9 and SPD by 1 becaudse, say, his background says "normal human", he's going to want to compensate to stay competetive. If the change is made across the board, no one should feel pressured to buy up CV some other way to compensate, since there's nothing to compensate for.

 

It's no different from agreeing that combats take too long, so everyone (PC and NPC alike) will reduce their defenses by about 10 on average, or that everyone will raise their attacks by 3 DC's to compensate. We're shifting the baseline. [To that example, I've sometimes considered rebuilding all the villains to average3 DC's more than the heroes, and defenses 10 lower, to make for faster combats. Same result but not implemented across the board as the PC's stay where they were.]

Points not spent on SPD and DEX are going to be spent on something. If the campaign also has damage caps (as probably most do) then a very likely alternative to SPD and DEX is going to be enhanced hit probability via levels. Can't hit as hard as you like? Hit more often. Can't attack more often? Make the attacks you do make more likely to hit.

 

I think campaign caps are a different issue. Treb, if your game featured characters with DEX 11 - 20 and SPD 3 - 5, ignoriing Z'lf, would you really feel you needed a 43 DEX and SPD 9 to be "the fastest person alive", or would a combination of, say, 33 DEX, 8 SPD and the co-GMs' assurance [to the same level you have it now] that this was, and would remain, the highest DEX and SPD in the game suffice?

Actually, her schtick is "Most Agile Person Who Has Ever Lived." I've always assumed the possibility of NPC's (including villains) with a higher SPD out there.

 

But you're right, I wouldn't feel that need in a campaign with average SPD/DEX stats that low. In such a campaign, she might well have ended up with a DEX 33 or 35 and SPD 7 (Indeed, she started her career as a player character with 38/8). OTOH, it would still be my feeling that numbers that low are too granular. Comic book characters consistently move faster than normals, even those comic book characters who supposedly don't have enhanced agility and reflexes. Since our campaign postulates our team as the Avenger/Justice League of our campaign world, I think that's appropriate. I can't see any member of the Avengers being out-DEX'd by any normal, not even a member of SHIELD or similar elite unit. (Even out of Hero ID, Zl'f with her base DEX 23 and SPD 4 would be a formidable opponent for a highly trained normal such as a Navy SEAL or SWAT team member.)

 

Admittedly, new Skills and Talents in Hero 5e such as Lighting Reflexes, Sweep, and Two-Weapon Fighting have blurred the line between pure dexterity and skill. That's an improvement IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Points not spent on SPD and DEX are going to be spent on something. If the campaign also has damage caps (as probably most do) then a very likely alternative to SPD and DEX is going to be enhanced hit probability via levels. Can't hit as hard as you like? Hit more often. Can't attack more often? Make the attacks you do make more likely to hit.

 

True - the points will go somewhere, and the game will seek a balance. Maybe that "somewhere" would have been a 5e "standard Supers" level of 175 + 150 points rather than 200 + 150, since a point savings of 28 for every character would allow similar characters at 25 points less.

 

Actually' date=' her [i']schtick [/i]is "Most Agile Person Who Has Ever Lived." I've always assumed the possibility of NPC's (including villains) with a higher SPD out there.

 

Sorry; I thought "fastest" seemed more Speedster than it should when I typed it.

 

But you're right' date=' I wouldn't feel that need in a campaign with average SPD/DEX stats that low. In such a campaign, she might well have ended up with a DEX 33 or 35 and SPD 7 (Indeed, she started her career as a player character with 38/8). [/quote']

 

'nuff said

 

OTOH' date=' it would still be my feeling that numbers that low are too granular. Comic book characters consistently move faster than normals, even those comic book characters who supposedly don't have enhanced agility and reflexes. Since our campaign postulates our team as the Avenger/Justice League of our campaign world, I think that's appropriate. I can't see [u']any[/u] member of the Avengers being out-DEX'd by any normal, not even a member of SHIELD or similar elite unit. (Even out of Hero ID, Zl'f with her base DEX 23 and SPD 4 would be a formidable opponent for a highly trained normal such as a Navy SEAL or SWAT team member.)

 

In fairness, how many times has someone seen Dex 43/SPD 9 and choked because the numbers are so comparatively high. As for comic book "reality", it seems like all the Hydra agents get to shoot at the Hulk/Thing before they retaliate. That implies trained agents with at least an equal SPD and at least a marginally higher DEX to allow them to go first. I don't think it would be a disaster for elite agents to have DEX/SPD a bit better than the lowest end Super, being outstripped by average Supers.

 

Of course, Agents need to be looked at in the same context. With a drop of 1 SPD on average, Supers would have a typical range of 3 - 6 instead of 4 - 7, and most fall in between the two ends. I wouldn't expect a lot of Supers to have a 3 (just like very few currently have a 4), so the lowest end Super would have a SPD similar to an elite agent, with the occasional "super-elite" agent (commonly built as low end Supers now) having a 4 and being a bit faster than them.

 

Where do Supers' DEX sit now? Maybe an occasional 18, but the typical range is 20 - 35. Reduce that to 11 - 26 and we're still in the game compared to agents. Most elite agents have a DEX of 14 or so, which would be a bit faster (1 CV) than the slowest of Supers, comparable with the slow to average supers and pale against the higher end Supers. We could also afford to differentiate agents between the trained (say 11 DEX - 3 points more than Joe Average), the highly trained elite (14 - 15 DEX) and the near-Super (17-18 DEX). For that matter, some agents could retain a 2 SPD.

 

To the granularity issue, if we reduce the range overall, Supers have the same level of granularity - it starts lower and ends lower, but the points in the range haven't changed. The range does start closer to the common man, but that's the point of the discussion, for those who feel that, maybe, the bare minimum DEX for a guy whose skin has turned to steel, or rock, or what have you, need not be 4x the reflexes of a normal human, with the scale climbing from there. It sits poorly with some to see a character described as "pretty slow" when his DEX puts him at or near the human NCM -at least four times as good as a typical human, twice as agile as highly trained agents, and at or near olympic gymnast level.

 

As noted above, it may allow a range of DEX for agent-types as well. They seem very lacking in granularity at present, don't they? When the average Super has a DEX of 23, any DEX 16 or below just seems "slow", since there's already a 3 point CV spread.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

True - the points will go somewhere' date=' and the game will seek a balance. Maybe that "somewhere" would have been a 5e "standard Supers" level of 175 + 150 points rather than 200 + 150, since a point savings of 28 for every character would allow similar characters at 25 points less.[/quote']Possibly. But I'd be willing to bet most players would balk at being given less than "standard" points to build their characters.

 

Sorry; I thought "fastest" seemed more Speedster than it should when I typed it.

I consider Zl'f a very fast martial artist and play her accordingly. She doesn't run around doing Move Throughs and Passing Strikes; she closes (very quickly) with her opponents and engages them in HtH combat. (The original build was much more speedster-like. I ramped that aspect way down when 5E came out and came out with a better character.)

 

In fairness, how many times has someone seen Dex 43/SPD 9 and choked because the numbers are so comparatively high.

I think most of those chokes are knee-jerk reactions rather than considered opinions. They haven't seen the character within the context of the campaign she plays in; and that is the only valid basis for measurement. I will concede Zl'f would not work in all campaigns; but I suspect that'd be at least as much for her low defenses as for her high CV. In a lot of games she'd probably get killed unless I ramped her defenses and/or Regeneration up significantly. (Since her Regen heals only 1 BODY/hour, it is useless in combat - it just means the bruises have healed before she goes to work the next day.)

 

As for comic book "reality", it seems like all the Hydra agents get to shoot at the Hulk/Thing before they retaliate. That implies trained agents with at least an equal SPD and at least a marginally higher DEX to allow them to go first. I don't think it would be a disaster for elite agents to have DEX/SPD a bit better than the lowest end Super, being outstripped by average Supers.

I think that's as much artistic license as anything else. The HYDRA agents (probably with Held actions to boot) get to blast the Thing or the Hulk so we can see the blasts bouncing ineffectively off the heroes' well-nigh-invulnerable epidermii. Why do we see Superman bouncing machine gun bullets off his chest when he could literally dodge them? Because it looks cool and reminds us of how tough he is.

 

Of course, Agents need to be looked at in the same context. With a drop of 1 SPD on average, Supers would have a typical range of 3 - 6 instead of 4 - 7, and most fall in between the two ends. I wouldn't expect a lot of Supers to have a 3 (just like very few currently have a 4), so the lowest end Super would have a SPD similar to an elite agent, with the occasional "super-elite" agent (commonly built as low end Supers now) having a 4 and being a bit faster than them.

 

Where do Supers' DEX sit now? Maybe an occasional 18, but the typical range is 20 - 35. Reduce that to 11 - 26 and we're still in the game compared to agents. Most elite agents have a DEX of 14 or so, which would be a bit faster (1 CV) than the slowest of Supers, comparable with the slow to average supers and pale against the higher end Supers. We could also afford to differentiate agents between the trained (say 11 DEX - 3 points more than Joe Average), the highly trained elite (14 - 15 DEX) and the near-Super (17-18 DEX). For that matter, some agents could retain a 2 SPD.

 

To the granularity issue, if we reduce the range overall, Supers have the same level of granularity - it starts lower and ends lower, but the points in the range haven't changed. The range does start closer to the common man, but that's the point of the discussion, for those who feel that, maybe, the bare minimum DEX for a guy whose skin has turned to steel, or rock, or what have you, need not be 4x the reflexes of a normal human, with the scale climbing from there. It sits poorly with some to see a character described as "pretty slow" when his DEX puts him at or near the human NCM -at least four times as good as a typical human, twice as agile as highly trained agents, and at or near olympic gymnast level.

 

As noted above, it may allow a range of DEX for agent-types as well. They seem very lacking in granularity at present, don't they? When the average Super has a DEX of 23, any DEX 16 or below just seems "slow", since there's already a 3 point CV spread.

That may be true, but I don't honestly know. From what I gather we use very few agents in our campaign relative to most. We have no VIPER/ARGENT equivalents; agents tend to be more along the line of mooks for supervillains although MidGuard has fought elite Chinese soldiers - which was a fairly long fight due to sheer numbers; IIRC it was a full company of about 100 soldiers. I'd say they were probably roughly equivalent to VIPER agents in terms of effectiveness, but since I wasn't running the scenario (that was Mentor) I can't say for sure.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I think most of those chokes are knee-jerk reactions rather than considered opinions. They haven't seen the character within the context of the campaign she plays in; and that is the only valid basis for measurement. I will concede Zl'f would not work in all campaigns; but I suspect that'd be at least as much for her low defenses as for her high CV. In a lot of games she'd probably get killed unless I ramped her defenses and/or Regeneration up significantly. (Since her Regen heals only 1 BODY/hour' date=' it is useless in combat - it just means the bruises have healed before she goes to work the next day.)[/quote']

 

Emphasis mine.

 

And if we changed the context of, say, the Champions Universe, to drop DEX by 9 and SPD by 1 across the board, lower DEX and SPD characters would be the norm and no one would really miss the higher levels. Just like no one now thinks an 11 EGO or 14 Ego Super isn't strong-willed enough, because we're conditioned to accept it.

 

Now, the problem with DEX and SPD is that we're at least 3 editions too late to make any such change. The 1st Ed sample characters set the standard that a 10 STR Super is OK, but a 10 DEX Super or 2 SPD Super is feeble at best. Breaking that standard at this point would be pretty tough - we're conditioned to it at this point. That's why the "across the board reduction" concept is interesting in theory, but would be difficult to implement in practice.

 

I think that's as much artistic license as anything else. The HYDRA agents (probably with Held actions to boot) get to blast the Thing or the Hulk so we can see the blasts bouncing ineffectively off the heroes' well-nigh-invulnerable epidermii. Why do we see Superman bouncing machine gun bullets off his chest when he could literally dodge them? Because it looks cool and reminds us of how tough he is.

 

Which genre bits do you want the game to emulate? One is that the agents DO move as fast as Hulk/Thing type characters. Have you ever seen a Champions Brick (or any character) decide that they should have less than full DCV because the comic book trope is that the agents would hit? If not, we're missing that genre bit, aren't we?

 

And even the Avengers fight the Hordes of Hydra, the Ninjas of the Hand, and scores of agents of Roxxon Corporation, to pick three groups.

 

The real issue is that, due to artistic license, characters' power levels (be it reaction time, CV, damage classes, defenses or what have you) fluctuate greatly based on the needs of the story. When SpiderMan can hold his own against the Hulk in one issue (no hope of winning, but hold his own) then be nearly defeated by the Kingpin a few issues later, it's pretty clear the power levels aren't based on standardized character sheets, but on what makes a good story. In a game, players aren't willing to drop their capabilities because "it will make for a better story".

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Emphasis mine.

 

And if we changed the context of, say, the Champions Universe, to drop DEX by 9 and SPD by 1 across the board, lower DEX and SPD characters would be the norm and no one would really miss the higher levels. Just like no one now thinks an 11 EGO or 14 Ego Super isn't strong-willed enough, because we're conditioned to accept it.

 

Now, the problem with DEX and SPD is that we're at least 3 editions too late to make any such change. The 1st Ed sample characters set the standard that a 10 STR Super is OK, but a 10 DEX Super or 2 SPD Super is feeble at best. Breaking that standard at this point would be pretty tough - we're conditioned to it at this point. That's why the "across the board reduction" concept is interesting in theory, but would be difficult to implement in practice.

I think this is probably true. OTOH, I see no compelling reason to change average DEX/SPD given that the theoretical benefits would be minimal at best. If it had been done from the beginning, as you noted, it'd be no big deal but at this point in time it would be impractical.

 

Which genre bits do you want the game to emulate? One is that the agents DO move as fast as Hulk/Thing type characters. Have you ever seen a Champions Brick (or any character) decide that they should have less than full DCV because the comic book trope is that the agents would hit? If not, we're missing that genre bit, aren't we?

In another thread I noted that Ben Grim was a former test pilot and fighter ace so I'd have had no problem building him with a DEX of 18 - 20 and SPD 4. The fact that DEX 14 HYDRA agents (probably with CSL's and possibly focused CSL's built into their weapons) can hit is nothing but dramatic license since their standard blasters don't seem to hurt the Thing anyway. I've done the same thing in our campaign, where I've built soldiers and mooks with 8-9d6 EBs which have virtually no chance of even leaking Stun through our team brick Silhouette's 32 ED. I think it's only fair to let the brick feel invulnerable from time to time; it's part of what makes playing a brick fun and most of the other PCs could be hurt by those attacks. Similarly, I once let our brick get hit with a 2d6 RKA Continuous napalm attack, which did nothing but cover her in flaming napalm and look dramatic since it was a night battle. Then she smashed the offending Mech into scrap metal.

 

And even the Avengers fight the Hordes of Hydra, the Ninjas of the Hand, and scores of agents of Roxxon Corporation, to pick three groups.

And yet those agents are seldom more than a warmup to the fight with MODOK or some other major foe. I certainly don't recall any Avengers' comics where all they did was stomp agents for the whole issue and then go back to the mansion for lunch.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

We worry too much about balance. What we need to concern ourselves with (but not worry about - worry is bad) is game enjoyment.

 

Now, personally, I am not the most in-depth user of Hero. I love the game, but I play it at a pretty superficial level, at least in terms of the options I have available. I've never done an MPA and I've never done a Rapid Attack (but I've just created a character who can and will....).

 

I played a while back in this low power supers game, a character called 'Billy'. Now Billy was basically a normal human, pretty good with a tonfa, and with the ability to teleport short distances.

 

I developed this tactic as we invaded an enemy base: basically it involved a half phase move to teleport around a corner (to the wall opposite, to avoid any aimed shots) then EITHER teleport back if there was too much opposition, set about the guards with the club, if I thought I could handle it, or call the rest of the team round if there was noone there.

 

About 4 or 5 of these little leaps in, the GM decided that the guards, guessing we were on the way, build a barracade, and I TP'd into it. Nearly died. I won't tell you what I thought because there may be young children reading.

 

From that point on I had to be very circumspect. One more mistake like that and I was hamburger. I only TP'd to places I could see and it was far more difficult to make progress.

 

And, oddly, far more fun.

 

I'd got the impression that I was pretty useful, and I was, but I'd also got cocky, and the GM reminded me of that.

 

What's my point?

 

My point is that if you have 50 pd and ed (resistant double hardened) or 50 DEX and SPD 12, you are not indestructible, or untouchable, or any of that stuff. A GM will find a way to remind you of that, without making the character useless or pointless, and you will find it strangely enjoyable.

 

Honest.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

We worry too much about balance. What we need to concern ourselves with (but not worry about - worry is bad) is game enjoyment.

QFT.

 

Besides, each individual's idea of balance is different. Mentor and I see eye to eye on probably 98% of in-game issues, but there's still that 2% difference - and our playing and discussing Champions together goes back almost 25 years. We have 6 very opinionated GM's in our group (5 of whom GM in our campaign) and no issue doesn't raise some sort of minor (or major!) dispute except one: That the purpose of this exercise is to have fun. It's not to build the coolest/toughest/most powerful character. It's not to impress our fellow players and/or people on the Hero boards of how clever we are or how cool our campaign or characters are. It's to have fun.

 

Without that, everything else is pointless.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

And yet those agents are seldom more than a warmup to the fight with MODOK or some other major foe. I certainly don't recall any Avengers' comics where all they did was stomp agents for the whole issue and then go back to the mansion for lunch.

 

New Avengers are currently having issues with the Hand Ninjas, but there are swarms of them, and they've become a pretty street level bunch, overall.

 

I do recall some old Avengers where they were dealing exclusively with Roxxon for an issue or three. There's likely more if one wanted to go digging.

 

DC has had characters have difficulty with armies of parademons, or the Anti-Monitor's shadow constructs, but has less groups of conventional agent-level characters.

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

A really funny idea about DCV on bricks...it's all F/X man...

 

 

What if, as an understanding with the players, that there invulnerable guy will get hit ALOT, even when there DCV says the attack misses (Let's say they have 1/2 DCV for if the attack hits) but if the attack should have missed the only effect is a little bit of soot on there costume. Of course this rule would not be used for master villain types, or maybe a damage threashold

[Vondy]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

A really funny idea about DCV on bricks...it's all F/X man...

 

 

 

 

Isn't this true of every character build?