Rant? Speed in Hero

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

And here I thought stripping was when a guy goes up for a shot and one of the opposing players trips and grabs his shorts on the way to the floor. One going up. One going down...

 

While things like this might improve the WNBA's ratings, it would probably hurt the NBA if it happened much.

 

Hmm, maybe fear of that is why the NBA finals rated so low.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

These are basically sustained actions and the overall effect of high Dex and Skill levels with Basketball, not a justification for better combat reactions than a SEAL.

 

I mean playing basketball vs. a Seal? Water polo, maybe.

 

Thats why I place professional atheletes at SPD3 and Special Forces guys at SPD4

[OctoberRaven]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

DISCLAIMER: This is solely based on my opinion.

 

While I do agree that those experienced in combat are better suited for quick reaction in combat, I have to agree that's not the point of SPD.

 

It's how fast you can natually move, fight, and react. That's why it's based off DEX. Experience CAN be factored in, but that's not the only thing that matters.

 

Also, SPD on vehicles. Can Vehicles be experienced in combat? No, but they can be built to be very responsive and manueverable. Again, that's where DEX comes in.

 

Your average kung-fu movie character has a speed of 4-6. Real-life Iaido experts could have up to 6 SPD but very low running (as they can move FAST with their hands but not as fast with their legs and feet). Some shonen anime characters have a speed of 6 or higher... and in DBZ and Naruto, the two most popular shonen shows, Speed 6 is relatively slow.

 

So inexperienced Speedsters in the 6-8 range make perfect sense to me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

So it occurs to me as I'm reading UMM today .... (it was coincidence, but when I read Hero books I think Hero things)

 

We often rant and rail on the boards about completely separating SFX from Mechanics (I point you towards pretty much every debate centered around Missile Deflection) ...

 

And here is a discussion doing the exact opposite - taking SPD (Mechanically: Number Of Actions In A 12 Segment Turn) and forcing particular levels into SFX.

 

The OP seemed to imply (and several posts that occur after it as well) that SPD is a static benchmark, i.e. every game has the same benchmarks to measure a characters SPD against.

 

Which is a bad thing - and several posts have pointed this out more or less. The benchmarks for SPD should be set up Game By Game.

 

that's all.

[Zorak1003]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I think combat training would EFFECT a character's speed, but it isn't the only thing that would do it. Just plain having SUPER SPEED - Super human reflexes, agility and even mental processes- As a concept seems pretty obvious. And Mr Fantastic would have a higher speed than I might give an ordinary stretcher, not due to combat training, but intelligence. (The man is NEVER surprised or confused by anything!)

 

It's a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg situation. SPD makes one more effective in combat, and training in combat can well increase one's speed- But again, other factors can be involved. I tend to give a point or two of extra speed to characters/creatures with a lot of permanant extra limbs- I made some awakened trees in Fantasy Hero with speeds of 6, despite low DEX and not much INT, and I'd handle Doc Ock the same way- He'd be a speed 3 or 4 at most without his tentacles, but with them, he easily keeps up with Spider-Man.

 

Having said all that, speed is definately relative- My rule of thumb is, if EVERYONE has a SPD of 6, they might as well all have SPDs of 2 and save the points. (And Nekkid's original chart generally parallels my own campaigns.)

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

 

The OP seemed to imply (and several posts that occur after it as well) that SPD is a static benchmark, i.e. every game has the same benchmarks to measure a characters SPD against.

 

Which is a bad thing - and several posts have pointed this out more or less. The benchmarks for SPD should be set up Game By Game.

 

\

 

There is a static benchmark. Normal Characters in each game are the benchmark. Do your npc's get NCM as a Disad? If not, then whatever you have defined their baseline at is the benchmark. In most Hero Games it is the same, but the specific numbers are unimportant. What is important imo is that if you use the same baseline as other people then when you compare characters across these genres they should be recognizably based on the same base.

 

Now, to say that even though they're using the same baseline 'trained normals' in one game can get higher abilities than characters in another is a Game By Game comparison. But if the 5 billion npc's in one game world are exactly like the 5 billion in another, then they're using the same benchmark and the difference in characters is how far they're allowed to stray from it.

 

Which naturally, varies a lot:straight:

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

There is a static benchmark. Normal Characters in each game are the benchmark. Do your npc's get NCM as a Disad? If not, then whatever you have defined their baseline at is the benchmark. In most Hero Games it is the same, but the specific numbers are unimportant. What is important imo is that if you use the same baseline as other people then when you compare characters across these genres they should be recognizably based on the same base.

 

Now, to say that even though they're using the same baseline 'trained normals' in one game can get higher abilities than characters in another is a Game By Game comparison. But if the 5 billion npc's in one game world are exactly like the 5 billion in another, then they're using the same benchmark and the difference in characters is how far they're allowed to stray from it.

 

Which naturally, varies a lot:straight:

 

Nope. I disagree.

 

The STARTING point says everyone gets 2SPD pretty much for free. That's the Base Point.

 

It says nothing about how or what 4SPD or 8SPD or 10SPD mean. It just says, everyone starts here - at 2SPD. And most people won't get above that.

 

Now, if you're using standard NCM, the fastest people go 4SPD.

Who are the fastest?

 

Well, that depends on the game you're playing now doesn't it?

could be Navy SEALS. But I'm playing Western Hero and we don't have those there so that bench mark doesn't help me much - and is meaningless within the context of my game. So Navy SEALS has as much meaning as "Only Spoolies get 4SPD" in Western HERO.

 

The question becomes "Why do you have 3SPD?"

"Well, I've worked for five years as an ER Nurse, I react quickly to emergency situations." or

"Well, I'm a US Army Ranger." or

"I've spent most of my life in the saddle breaking horses in, I've got honed reflexes." or

"I've always been quick, ever since I was a kid. Suppose it's just genetics." or

(insert about a dozen more concepts here).

 

Don't push your SFX on me, man.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

There is a static benchmark. Normal Characters in each game are the benchmark. Do your npc's get NCM as a Disad? If not, then whatever you have defined their baseline at is the benchmark. In most Hero Games it is the same, but the specific numbers are unimportant. What is important imo is that if you use the same baseline as other people then when you compare characters across these genres they should be recognizably based on the same base.

 

Now, to say that even though they're using the same baseline 'trained normals' in one game can get higher abilities than characters in another is a Game By Game comparison. But if the 5 billion npc's in one game world are exactly like the 5 billion in another, then they're using the same benchmark and the difference in characters is how far they're allowed to stray from it.

 

Which naturally, varies a lot

Sorry, but that's simply incorrect. A benchmark is nothing more than a starting point. It applies no scale. A SPD 4 character in a Champions game means something entirely different from a SPD 4 character in a Pulp Hero game. In the former, he's slower than almost all other player characters in the genre. In the latter game, he's markedly faster than most other characters.

 

SPD is properly compared only to other characters in the same genre and same campaign. There's no reason at all except convention a Pulp Hero or Western Hero game couldn't feature player characters with SPDs in the 4 to 6 range.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

:jawdrop:Wow. I'm pretty sure whatever I write will receive a quick response affirming it as heresy. Let's try it.

 

'ghost-angel is completely right in all things and I'm trying to force my own limited view of the way Hero works on a generally gullible and unsuspecting online community.'

[Greywind]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Speed, as it is given, is a measuring stick used to compare characters within, and only in, one given game setting.

 

Once you try to cross genres with it, once you start putting peoples bias on it, it inherently breaks down.

 

Once you try to quantify it by giving it absolutes by example, it breaks down.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

'ghost-angel is completely right in all things and I'm trying to force my own limited view of the way Hero works on a generally gullible and unsuspecting online community.'

Heresy? Nope, I'm pretty sure that's true.

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Speed, as it is given, is a measuring stick used to compare characters within, and only in, one given game setting.

 

Once you try to cross genres with it, once you start putting peoples bias on it, it inherently breaks down.

 

Once you try to quantify it by giving it absolutes by example, it breaks down.

 

I'll take this aone step further and say that it is per game. Me and you may be running champions, in my game characters run the gambit of speeds from 3-8, yours says 2-5, both are the same genre, but in the end very different games

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I'll take this one step further and say that it is per game. Me and you may be running champions' date=' in my game characters run the gambit of speeds from 3-8, yours says 2-5, both are the same genre, but in the end very different games[/quote']Absolutely. In our campaign we have two PC teams, MidGuard and Justice Watch. Despite both being based on 350 points, Justice Watch characters not only tend to be markedly less powerful and versatile than MidGuard (as befits their lesser experience) but centered more on mid-range SPD - every character is SPD 5 or SPD 6 except for the SPD 9 flying speedster. MidGuard has two SPD 4 characters as well as a SPD 9 MA.

 

EDIT: 4000 posts! Woot!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

:jawdrop:Wow. I'm pretty sure whatever I write will receive a quick response affirming it as heresy. Let's try it.

 

'ghost-angel is completely right in all things and I'm trying to force my own limited view of the way Hero works on a generally gullible and unsuspecting online community.'

 

Here's the thing...

 

The only Characteristic with a measurable quality is Strength. And that is Lifting Capacity.

 

Because we can measure how much things weigh. We have an entire fields of athletics based around lifting things. For multiple species (ever see a Pitbull tractor pull? Those dogs are strong).

 

Beyond that they get nebulous. We can't measure the Speed and Dexterity of a Navy SEAL or a Civil War Solider, or even a Comic Book Superhero.

 

So each game, when it is set up, has to set it's own benchmarks and ranges for each Stat as an acceptable standard.

 

When someone, anyone really, comes along and goes "What? No, this is the benchmark of how Speed breaks down..." We kind of go "Uh... why?"

 

Now - you could (and basically have) gotten most of us to agree that a Navy SEAL is probably SPD4, maybe a 5. But that doesn't mean we follow that has hardcoded truth of the System. Or even at all. We might go "Sure. we'd let them be SPD4." But then you could run into a Cinematic Military Spec Ops Game where everyone is highly trained and they decided to open SPD up a bit, now you have SPD6 SEALS hanging out with SPD4 SEALS and no one is going "But they can't get that fast!!!" because in the context of that game it works.

 

You'll find if you try to force SFX onto many Hero Players (especially on these boardS) we'll balk and quite possibly vocally disagree with you.

 

 

(and I'm not always right .... but I do have a Briefcase Full Of Rules )

[Willpower]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

The problem with speed is largely GM control. In a game where the GM strictly limits speed allowing only an occasional high speed character it doesn't matter, but try playing a speed 2 or 3 character in a game where all the other players are speed 4 and you will get sucked into the Speed vortex.

 

I had an anti-terrorist character years ago (Danger International) Speed 3, no problems until I took him to Dundra Con and got into a game rescuing POW's, most of the other players came from the same GM's game, the "slow" characters were Speed 4, and there was even a "rich guy" who was speed 5. Needless to say I had a pretty boring time even the cannon fodder was as fast or faster than me. In my game at home all the PC's were 3's except for a martial artist type who was 4.

 

I agree with your "chart" BTW, unfortunately not everyone uses it.

 

At the very least, I partially agree with you. However, I do not think GM control is completely to blame. I actually think more of the blame resides with the Hero Games company itself. They set out these guidelines for what is normal characteristics, and then, at least with Champions, those guidelines are thrown out the window completely in their own worlds. Now in all Superhero games, the heroes are typically faster and better than normal, but the amount better than normal in the Hero system is somewhat beyond reason. I mean a 4 is normal character maxima for Speed, but I haven't seen but a few supervillains or heroes with that low of a Speed, and none lower. Typically in Champions supplement a SLOW brick MAY have a 4 speed, but more than likely a 5 speed. So that means, even the slow an clumsy bricks, who are like a bull in a china shop have a higher Speed Stat than a Navy Seal. And don't get me started on Dex, that is just as bad or worse than Speed Even Bricks in a Champions supplement are generally on par with what, by the book, would be an Olympic Level Gymnast or better.

 

In most other games, as I said super hero and villains are also better than average, but the typical hero and villain aren't better that the maximum a human is capable of. For instance in DC Heroes human average or Dex was 2 and maximum was 10. It had a wide range allowable. Their characters generally followed this. Now in DC though, their power range was through the roof, so at the upper ends most people were better than human average, and a lot were better than human maximum, but those people were like Superman and such, who ARE supposed to be better than olympic gymansts and such. Others were done like they should be. Flash for instance, had a high Dex, but wasn't near human maximum. Most human level characters were lower than maximum, with only the very best reaching it. In Champions it is the reverse. Only the very worst are as low as human maximum.

 

In short, (too late) I've tried running games where Speed and Dex are more in line with what the rules say they should be, but most players who are familiar with Champions have trouble adapting, and all end up with around a 4 anyway. And then there is still the problem with either having to make all NPC's up yourself, or altering the ones in any book you decide to use. I think I am going to try it again in my next campaign though. I'll probably come up with a chart similar to the one presented here for all stats.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Now in all Superhero games, the heroes are typically faster and better than normal, but the amount better than normal in the Hero system is somewhat beyond reason. I mean a 4 is normal character maxima for Speed, but I haven't seen but a few supervillains or heroes with that low of a Speed, and none lower. Typically in Champions supplement a SLOW brick MAY have a 4 speed, but more than likely a 5 speed. So that means, even the slow an clumsy bricks, who are like a bull in a china shop have a higher Speed Stat than a Navy Seal. And don't get me started on Dex, that is just as bad or worse than Speed Even Bricks in a Champions supplement are generally on par with what, by the book, would be an Olympic Level Gymnast or better.

 

In most other games, as I said super hero and villains are also better than average, but the typical hero and villain aren't better that the maximum a human is capable of. For instance in DC Heroes human average or Dex was 2 and maximum was 10. It had a wide range allowable. Their characters generally followed this. Now in DC though, their power range was through the roof, so at the upper ends most people were better than human average, and a lot were better than human maximum, but those people were like Superman and such, who ARE supposed to be better than olympic gymansts and such. Others were done like they should be. Flash for instance, had a high Dex, but wasn't near human maximum. Most human level characters were lower than maximum, with only the very best reaching it. In Champions it is the reverse. Only the very worst are as low as human maximum.

I'm getting the impression you're equating Human Characteristic Maxima with "the best human can achieve sans superpowers," and that's not the case at all. HCM is not a cap unless a GM makes it so. A SPD 4 HCM simply means characters exceeding that number must pay double price for each point of SPD beyond HCM, so it's entirely plausible even some rare "normal" humans exceed this point with sufficient training and/or talent. I doubt most Hero players would argue with giving Bruce Lee a SPD 5 or even SPD 6 despite the fact we know he wasn't superhuman.

 

I'm sure there's more than a bit of SPD inflation in many Champions games; and certainly there's room for abuse. OTOH, it's a game about flying people who wear spandex, bounce bullets off their chests, and shoot beams of energy from their hands. In that context, worrying about the "unrealism" of high SPD seems a bit silly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

At the very least' date=' I partially agree with you. However, I do not think GM control is completely to blame. I actually think more of the blame resides with the Hero Games company itself. They set out these guidelines for what is normal characteristics, and then, at least with Champions, those guidelines are thrown out the window completely in their own worlds.[/quote']

 

This dates back to 1st Ed Champions. Consciously or not, the designers made several decisions. They decided that "normal humans" would be on the low edge of the characteristic range (2 SPD of a possible 12; 10 primary stats; defenses of 2). They decided that Supers would outstrip normals by a significant margin, providing sample characters whose DEX ranged from 18 to 30 and whose SPD ranged from 4 to 7. The earliest Enemies books maintained that range, although the DEX range crept out to 35 at the higher end, and 23 quickly became the "standard Super" dex. This is exacerbated by the decision, in later editions, to set "normal human maxima" of 20/4 for typical humans, and 30/6(?) for any humans, after already publishing non-supers in prior editions with DEX well beyond that. This set the typical Super as having, if not superhuman, at least a truly remarkable level of agility and speed.

 

Different decisions could have been made. The samle Brick in 1st Ed could have had a DEX of 8 and a SPD of 2. All the other sample characters could have had their DEX reduced by 8 - 10 and SPD by 2. The characters, compared against one another, would not have changed markedly, but the standard set for DEX and SPD would have, and we would have had highly trained agents who might have been quicker and more agile than slower Supers.

 

That's not the way the game evolved. Certainly, each new edition could have changed these ground rules as it came along. However, that would have rendered all the older source material obsolete, which would not be greeted warmly by established gamers. So the baseline for the Supers Universe in Hero stays more or less the same. Given the ease of customizing the game, nothing prevents any of us from deciding "in my game, lower DEX and SPD prevails", and dropping every published character by 8 - 10 DEX and 2 SPD across the board. And we can do that with characters fro products from every edition because Hero Games has kept the baseline consistent. We don't have to pick up a 3e product and go "Hmmm..the base line here is such that I only need to drop DEX by 6 and SPD by 1", and someone using the standard baselines doesn't make any changes at all in respect of DEX and SPD.

 

Now in all Superhero games' date=' the heroes are typically faster and better than normal,[/quote']

 

Not really. Mutants & Masterminds, Villains & Vigilantes and Superworld all provide for Supers to be no faster than normals, and for agents to be faster than Supers for whom DEX and SPD aren't part of their power suite. In my view, this can easily be viewed as consistent with the comics, or with dropping Champions DEX and SPD across the board. Thugs with guns don't seem to experience any problems hitting many supers for whom DEX and SPD aren't part of a power suite (although hurting them is another thing entirely). Many "normal human" Supers seem much faster and more agile than their superhuman colleagues (Daredevil, for example, is top of the line).

 

but the amount better than normal in the Hero system is somewhat beyond reason. I mean a 4 is normal character maxima for Speed' date=' but I haven't seen but a few supervillains or heroes with that low of a Speed, and none lower. Typically in Champions supplement a SLOW brick MAY have a 4 speed, but more than likely a 5 speed.[/quote']

 

These are figures that few normal humans exceed. "Maxima" is more of an absolute, which is misused in Hero parlance. Hero made the decision, way back in 1e, that even slow Supers were exceptionally agile and swift compared to the man on the street.

 

So that means' date=' even the slow an clumsy bricks, who are like a bull in a china shop have a higher Speed Stat than a Navy Seal. And don't get me started on Dex, that is just as bad or worse than Speed Even Bricks in a Champions supplement are generally on par with what, by the book, would be an Olympic Level Gymnast or better.[/quote']

 

Yup. That is the benchmark of the mainstream CU. Because DEX and Speed are inextricably linked to combat effectiveness, they rise up to make the Supers more impressive. Nothing stops you from setting the benchmarks in your game at lower levels, but this is more woprk than following 25+ years of established precedent.

 

In most other games' date=' as I said super hero and villains are also better than average, but the typical hero and villain aren't better that the maximum a human is capable of. For instance in DC Heroes human average or Dex was 2 and maximum was 10. It had a wide range allowable. Their characters generally followed this.[/quote']

 

True non-Supers level characters rarely, if ever, had a stat in excess of 3 or 4. Check the weight that Batman, with (IIRC) a 5 STR could lift. Even the designers note that it's a bit absurd. All DC Heroes did was divide the Champions primary stat numbers by 5. "It doubles every point, and normnals have a base 2" is pretty close to "It doubles every 5 points and normals have a base 10".

 

Really, did Hero need a bigger scale for truly normal humans? It's not like a 25+25 competent normal has the abiliyty to buy himself a 35 DEX and a 7 SPD. That 10 cap in DC Heroes equates to a stat of 50 in Hero.

 

Most human level characters were lower than maximum' date=' with only the very best reaching it. In Champions it is the reverse. Only the very worst are as low as human maximum. [/quote']

 

This establishes "different". It does not establish "worse". Your example of the Flash, for example, indicates his DEX is below human maximum. How many huimans do you know who can dodge not only bullets, but even light? That seems like a far cry from "around human max".

 

In short' date=' (too late) I've tried running games where Speed and Dex are more in line with what the rules say they should be, but most players who are familiar with Champions have trouble adapting, and all end up with around a 4 anyway. And then there is still the problem with either having to make all NPC's up yourself, or altering the ones in any book you decide to use. I think I am going to try it again in my next campaign though. I'll probably come up with a chart similar to the one presented here for all stats.[/quote']

 

Hero certainly has the choice to change the baseline. But, if they do, then most players who are familiar with Champions have trouble adapting. And then there is still the problem with either having to modify all your existing PC's and NPC's yourself, and altering the ones in any prior edition book you decide to use. I think maintaining the baseline people are used to, and leaving it to individual GM's and players to modify them, if they so desire, is the superior approach. After all, it really is as simple as just subtracting 9 DEX and 2 SPD from every character.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Hugh, I can't help but think you feel it was some sort of mistake not to limit SPD and DEX to lower levels and I simply can't see why. There's still plenty of flexibility in the system as is. Champions and its derivatives since 1982 are games based around heroic fiction, not reality. The simple fact is that in movies, TV, novels, and comic books the major characters pretty much do run roughshod over normals - largely on account of their superior reflexes, quick thinking, and athletic prowess. The game system simply reflects that. If someone actually wants to play a character who is markedly slower than most other PCs or NPCs, he's under no restriction not to, but I suspect the Amazing Slothman has little appeal to most players.

 

The Fantastic Four's Ben Grimm is a former test pilot; and test pilots are primarily selected for their fast reflexes and quick thinking. IIRC he was also a Korean War fighter ace. I can't see any reason at all the Thing (virtually the prototypical brick) can't easily justify a SPD 4 in light of his training, combat experience, and enhanced musculature.

[Willpower]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I'm getting the impression you're equating Human Characteristic Maxima with "the best human can achieve sans superpowers' date='" and that's not the case at all. HCM is [u']not[/u] a cap unless a GM makes it so. A SPD 4 HCM simply means characters exceeding that number must pay double price for each point of SPD beyond HCM, so it's entirely plausible even some rare "normal" humans exceed this point with sufficient training and/or talent. I doubt most Hero players would argue with giving Bruce Lee a SPD 5 or even SPD 6 despite the fact we know he wasn't superhuman.

 

I'm sure there's more than a bit of SPD inflation in many Champions games; and certainly there's room for abuse. OTOH, it's a game about flying people who wear spandex, bounce bullets off their chests, and shoot beams of energy from their hands. In that context, worrying about the "unrealism" of high SPD seems a bit silly.

 

 

Yes, I understand that. That has been the case since 4th edition I believe... This is actually one of the problems with that. There is no hard edge to human ability. It is actually possible for a "normal" human to have a 12 Speed, 40 Dex, and 50 strength or even greater than that based on the rules. So we cannot even go into that. All we CAN discuss is based off the normal characteristic maximum set in the game. Since it is there, and it is the very rare human indeed who is beyond it, and since they do have stats at times for Olympic level gymnasts and such that fall within the category of human maximum, I just find it a bit silly that you will rarely find a hero or villain that fall within this range. I mean, can't they make a character that developed superhuman strength, without saying effectively that he is also better than a gold medalist in dexterity for no reason whatsoever? That is all I mean.

 

The "mean" for some characteristics (Mostly dexterity and speed) is very skewed in the Champions Universe, and always has been. It would make it very hard to play a typical teenager who discovers his mutant powers of shooting lasers from his eyes. Either he would seriously be outdone in the superhero realm, since he would probably have a Dex of around 13-15, and a Speed of 2-3. (not to mention a higher PD and ED) Or he would seriously outdo other teenagers, since not only would he be able to shoot lasers from his eyes, but he would also have a dexterity over 20, Speed of 5 or 6, and a PD and Ed much higher than other teenagers that would generally have their stats fall more in line with the first example.

[Force]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

That's not the way the game evolved. Certainly' date=' each new edition could have changed these ground rules as it came along. However, that would have rendered all the older source material obsolete, which would not be greeted warmly by established gamers. So the baseline for the Supers Universe in Hero stays more or less the same. Given the ease of customizing the game, nothing prevents any of us from deciding "in my game, lower DEX and SPD prevails", and dropping every published character by 8 - 10 DEX and 2 SPD across the board. And we can do that with characters fro products from every edition because Hero Games has kept the baseline consistent. We don't have to pick up a 3e product and go "Hmmm..the base line here is such that I only need to drop DEX by 6 and SPD by 1", and someone using the standard baselines doesn't make any changes at all in respect of DEX and SPD.[/quote']

 

So you go along with ghost and treb in their assertion that dex and speed should be and are based differently from each game/campaign to another game/campaign.

 

I agree as well and rather than use the term 'baseline', I think a more accurate terms is 'guideline'.

[Force]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

The "mean" for some characteristics (Mostly dexterity and speed) is very skewed in the Champions Universe' date=' and always has been. It would make it very hard to play a typical teenager who discovers his mutant powers of shooting lasers from his eyes. Either he would seriously be outdone in the superhero realm, since he would probably have a Dex of around 13-15, and a Speed of 2-3. (not to mention a higher PD and ED) Or he would seriously outdo other teenagers, since not only would he be able to shoot lasers from his eyes, but he would also have a dexterity over 20, Speed of 5 or 6, and a PD and Ed much higher than other teenagers that would generally have their stats fall more in line with the first example.[/quote']

 

Ummm...Why?

 

Why would he have to be outclassed by all the other supers on his 'team'? Or in the flip case, why shouldn't he outclass his fellow supers?

 

None of the above 'guidelines' forces him into either.

 

The only thing that does this (outside of points) would be the pre-conceived notion that he should be at either end of the scale.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Yes, I understand that. That has been the case since 4th edition I believe... This is actually one of the problems with that. There is no hard edge to human ability. It is actually possible for a "normal" human to have a 12 Speed, 40 Dex, and 50 strength or even greater than that based on the rules. So we cannot even go into that. All we CAN discuss is based off the normal characteristic maximum set in the game. Since it is there, and it is the very rare human indeed who is beyond it, and since they do have stats at times for Olympic level gymnasts and such that fall within the category of human maximum, I just find it a bit silly that you will rarely find a hero or villain that fall within this range. I mean, can't they make a character that developed superhuman strength, without saying effectively that he is also better than a gold medalist in dexterity for no reason whatsoever? That is all I mean.

 

The "mean" for some characteristics (Mostly dexterity and speed) is very skewed in the Champions Universe, and always has been. It would make it very hard to play a typical teenager who discovers his mutant powers of shooting lasers from his eyes. Either he would seriously be outdone in the superhero realm, since he would probably have a Dex of around 13-15, and a Speed of 2-3. (not to mention a higher PD and ED) Or he would seriously outdo other teenagers, since not only would he be able to shoot lasers from his eyes, but he would also have a dexterity over 20, Speed of 5 or 6, and a PD and Ed much higher than other teenagers that would generally have their stats fall more in line with the first example.

There's nothing to prevent a "normal" human from having a 12 Speed, 40 Dex, and 50 strength except concept. I much prefer a system which will allow me to have fun playing the game than something that locks in concrete what we can and cannot do. The purpose of the exercise is to have fun.

 

If everyone has SPD 12, then there's nothing special about it and what's the point of having it? Better to acknowledge each others' schtick, exercise a little restraint, and make your character stand out in some other way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Hugh' date=' I can't help but think you feel it was some sort of mistake not to limit SPD and DEX to lower levels and I simply can't see why. There's still plenty of flexibility in the system as is. Champions and its derivatives since 1982 are games based around heroic fiction, not reality. The simple fact is that in movies, TV, novels, and comic books the major characters pretty much do run roughshod over normals - largely on account of their superior reflexes, quick thinking, and athletic prowess. The game system simply reflects that. If someone actually wants to play a character who is markedly slower than most other PCs or NPCs, he's under no restriction not to, but I suspect the Amazing Slothman has little appeal to most players. [/quote']

 

I don't see it as a mistake, I see it as one option. The fact is, in most superhero comics, agents of Hydra, Roxxon Corporation or HIVE demonstrate the ability to routinely hit those supers for whom high agility is not a schtick. In Champions, VIPER agents need special weaponry to level the playing field.

 

In espionage, cops & robbers and similar "Dark Champions" source material, the heroes generally evade gunfire, and in space opera, the heroes typically evade blaster fire. Fantasy characters run the gamut between high def low DCV and high DCV low def, but generally are superior to the King's Guard and easily evade their swordblows and archers. I can't think of a non-Supers genre where evasion is not the primary defense.

 

I don't think any player wants to play a character who is markedly inferior to the norm. For Champions as it has evolved, that makes a 4 SPD and an 18-20 DEX the bottom of the barrel - and that character is still remarked on as being slow. If we dropped the typical DEX by 10 and the typical SPD by 2, a 10 DEX, 2 SPD character would still be slow, and uncommon. A typical Super might be DEX 13 - 15 and SPD 3, still well above the masses - as quick and agile as an agent-level opponent, rather than DEX 23 - 25 and SPD 5, making the Agents unable to compete. The amazingly fast Supers might have a DEX of 23 - 26 and SPD 7-8, rather than DEX 33 - 35, and be amazingly fast and agile compared to those agents, and to fellow Supers.

 

Would that be superior? Not objectively. It would better duplicate some comic book tropes (ie the army and the agents have no real difficulty hitting Supers who aren't at the higher agility ranges), and probably fall offside on others. It would, however, also not be objectively inferior. It would certainly be viable.

 

Either approach is workable, and my game follows the Hero example, as I suspect most do, simply because that's the easiest aproach, and the added difficulty of dropping all the DEX and SPD scores is not worth the extra effort. The balance works well at the present level, and dropping SPD would create a ripple effect. For instance, with lower SPD, there would be less attacks per PS 12 recovery, so assuming END scores, STUN scores and REC scores remain unchanged, combat will become longer. Adjustment powers and Flash will be come less valuable, as they will recover more quickly (ie in less phases) by comparison. Characters will have freed up between 25 and 30 points to spend elsewhere. It's easier by far to stick with the established baselines as they have evolved, and avoid all those ripples.

 

The Fantastic Four's Ben Grimm is a former test pilot; and test pilots are primarily selected for their fast reflexes and quick thinking. IIRC he was also a Korean War fighter ace. I can't see any reason at all the Thing (virtually the prototypical brick) can't easily justify a SPD 4 in light of his training' date=' combat experience, and enhanced musculature.[/quote']

 

But a 4 SPD is quite slow for a Super under the existing rules, isn't it? It's all relative. Ben's history easily justifies a SPD and DEX appropriate for a trained and experienced soldier. Aren't VIPER 5 team agents also similar to trained and experienced soldiers? A reasonable case could be made that a 350 point Thing (rather than the Thing with a 40+ year publishing history) might reasonably have DEX and Speed similar to that of a VIPER agent. But I can virtually guarantee that any writeup we see of a starting level Brick will have at least 3 DEX points and a Speed point over a Viper agent. More likely, he will have at least a 20 DEX (5 more), maybe 23 (8 more) and a 5 SPD (2 more) than the VIPER agent. That means the agent has a less than 50% chance of any attack hitting, even if Ben takes no special defensive actions. That's not consistent with all those splash pages where several blaster bolts deflect off Ben's rocky hide, or even with the fact that the agents generally get a few shots off before they get clobbered.

 

The present model sets the human normal characteristic maximum (20 and 4) as a minimum to be a Super, and even then you're an unusually slow one. Is it really consistent with the comics that virtually every superhero and supervillain is markedly more agile and faster than even the elite of the non-Super population?

[Willpower]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

This dates back to 1st Ed Champions. Consciously or not, the designers made several decisions. They decided that "normal humans" would be on the low edge of the characteristic range (2 SPD of a possible 12; 10 primary stats; defenses of 2). They decided that Supers would outstrip normals by a significant margin, providing sample characters whose DEX ranged from 18 to 30 and whose SPD ranged from 4 to 7. The earliest Enemies books maintained that range, although the DEX range crept out to 35 at the higher end, and 23 quickly became the "standard Super" dex. This is exacerbated by the decision, in later editions, to set "normal human maxima" of 20/4 for typical humans, and 30/6(?) for any humans, after already publishing non-supers in prior editions with DEX well beyond that. This set the typical Super as having, if not superhuman, at least a truly remarkable level of agility and speed.

 

Different decisions could have been made. The samle Brick in 1st Ed could have had a DEX of 8 and a SPD of 2. All the other sample characters could have had their DEX reduced by 8 - 10 and SPD by 2. The characters, compared against one another, would not have changed markedly, but the standard set for DEX and SPD would have, and we would have had highly trained agents who might have been quicker and more agile than slower Supers.

 

That's not the way the game evolved. Certainly, each new edition could have changed these ground rules as it came along. However, that would have rendered all the older source material obsolete, which would not be greeted warmly by established gamers. So the baseline for the Supers Universe in Hero stays more or less the same. Given the ease of customizing the game, nothing prevents any of us from deciding "in my game, lower DEX and SPD prevails", and dropping every published character by 8 - 10 DEX and 2 SPD across the board. And we can do that with characters fro products from every edition because Hero Games has kept the baseline consistent. We don't have to pick up a 3e product and go "Hmmm..the base line here is such that I only need to drop DEX by 6 and SPD by 1", and someone using the standard baselines doesn't make any changes at all in respect of DEX and SPD.

 

Yeah, I know. Its actually been one of my pet peeves of Hero since first edition. When I first got the game, I made a Brick as my first character based solely off the descriptions of what each stat could do. My Brick was insanely strong, had decent PD and ED, but all of his other necessary stats were terrible. I didn't think he would be any faster than the average person so he had a Dex of 10 and a Speed of 2. When I compared him to other characters after he was finished. He sucked completely. Sure his strength was good, and his defenses would keep him alive, but he would never hit anything but maybe an agent occasionally, and even they were faster than him.

 

Changing all characters like you say though, may sound like a suggestion that would work, but I have tried it and believe me it that easy. You end up having to do it on a case per case basis, as every once in a while, they will throw a Giganto in the mix and screw up your curve. I think it was third or 4th edition when I tried it this way. And it was easy at first, but since Giganto was built differently than most others, I believe he had a 10 Dex, and his prowess came from having tons of HTH OCV levels, so where he was built the minus to Dex and Speed needed to be adjusted, as he would have ended up with a 2 - 4 Dex, I think a 2 Speed, so that would have been fine, but he would have still had those tons of levels in HTH. It would have thrown that characters ballace off track. That is just one character though, and it generally worked fine. You just have to check each character and not just adjust all of them blindly the same way.

 

Not really. Mutants & Masterminds, Villains & Vigilantes and Superworld all provide for Supers to be no faster than normals, and for agents to be faster than Supers for whom DEX and SPD aren't part of their power suite. In my view, this can easily be viewed as consistent with the comics, or with dropping Champions DEX and SPD across the board. Thugs with guns don't seem to experience any problems hitting many supers for whom DEX and SPD aren't part of a power suite (although hurting them is another thing entirely). Many "normal human" Supers seem much faster and more agile than their superhuman colleagues (Daredevil, for example, is top of the line).

 

Don't know about Superworld, but you are right about M&M and V&V. Especially V&V. M&M does it the same way it works pretty much in D&D, so even those characters are typically going to be a bit better than normal though as the typical D&D character is a bit better than normal. The original Marvel game was also pretty good at keeping things fairly normal when they should be normal too.

 

These are figures that few normal humans exceed. "Maxima" is more of an absolute, which is misused in Hero parlance. Hero made the decision, way back in 1e, that even slow Supers were exceptionally agile and swift compared to the man on the street.

 

I addressed this already in my previous post.

 

Yup. That is the benchmark of the mainstream CU. Because DEX and Speed are inextricably linked to combat effectiveness, they rise up to make the Supers more impressive. Nothing stops you from setting the benchmarks in your game at lower levels, but this is more woprk than following 25+ years of established precedent.

 

Except tons of work. As mentioned before you can't change all characters blindly. It may work for a lot, but not all. And there are a few times you would really have to adjust levels and such too, besides just the extreme cases. For instance the Rainbow Archer I think when I last saw her had like a 35 Dex, Taking that down even 8 points would give her a 27 Dexterity. And then she had like 8 levels with her bow on top of that. If the standard character was changed to reflect more of a human range, and all you did was take her Dex does the same as everyone else, not only would she still hit all the time, but no one would ever hit her either.

 

This establishes "different". It does not establish "worse". Your example of the Flash, for example, indicates his DEX is below human maximum. How many huimans do you know who can dodge not only bullets, but even light? That seems like a far cry from "around human max".

 

OK two things on this. If a 4 is set to normal human maximum (fully understanding that truely exceptional humans can go beyond this slightly) and a Hero who having a 4 in that stat is about as low as a hero can go and still be effective, than that does mean that only the heroes that are worst at that statistic (IE those with a 4 in it) will be at human maximum. (I agree it is unfortunate Hero Games decided to use the term maximum to discribe what isn't a maximum, but that was their decision, though in their defense Ibelieve it was suppose to be an actual maximum when it was first developed. I think they only changed it, when people kept saying, "He's supposed to be a normal human, how can his Dex be this high?".

 

The other thing I am going to say is in regards to the Flash example. Flash in DC Heroes, could not dodge bullets based off his Dexterity. You seem to know some of the DC Heroes rules, so you should know that was all based off his Superspeed power, which when used for Dexterity gave him superhuman levels of dexterity. His normal dexterity though was well within the human range for that game. I believe it was a 6. (For those that need to know, in the old DC Heroes game, Superspeed like all abilities were purchased in APs, and the APs of Superspeed could be used to replace either his dexterity for hitting and getting hit, or in place strength for damage purposes. Other side effects of those replacements would not work, so the speedster could not lift more by using Superspeed in place of his strength, just do more damage.)

 

Hero certainly has the choice to change the baseline. But, if they do, then most players who are familiar with Champions have trouble adapting. And then there is still the problem with either having to modify all your existing PC's and NPC's yourself, and altering the ones in any prior edition book you decide to use. I think maintaining the baseline people are used to, and leaving it to individual GM's and players to modify them, if they so desire, is the superior approach. After all, it really is as simple as just subtracting 9 DEX and 2 SPD from every character.

 

Close, but not completely. Each character would have to be looked at inividually, as I mentioned before or you would eventually end up with abberations that could hurt the balance of your game. Sure you could just do it, and then when you saw the abberation you could make corrections at that time, but you may not notice how good one character still is, until he has been in a fight a few rounds. It is easy to make the change then as well, but its still a pain and you generally end up just saying the heck with it, and going with the standard they have always used. Though that is if you just work up a standard mechanic for it. If you do all the work ahead of time, then it could work.

[Tigereye]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I tend to agree with the other people who say that SPD is an action-oriented characteristic and really not much more. For one thing, it's not "up-the-stat-by-five-and-double-the-effect" sort of thing- it's the most linear CHA in the book. A character with a SPD of 12 simply acts six times faster than a normal human being during crisis situations. Is that superheroic? Yep. But, conceivably, a super-martial-artist could do it. The super-Ninja can choose their actions wisely, using Recoveries and Martial Dodge during some off rounds or when the enemies are acting to keep themselves from exhaustion, stop the ranged attacks and shake off stun. A SPD of 12 would only make for a cinematic, genetically-enhanced Bruce Lee, with a only modestly high DEX score (DEX 23-26 or thereabouts). (In fact, I assisted in exactly that kind of design.)

 

Is a high SPD partly-or wholly- energy? No; an extremely high DEX to obtain that SPD could be indicative of "Being Of Pure Energy" status (and if you want a 110 DEX, at a boatload of points, you are welcome to it!), but SPD itself is not the arbiting factor here. A character could have a SPD of 12 and a DEX of 8- they always seem to have a lot of things they can do when the heat's on, but don't seem to hit a lot when they spool up to attack speed, and can still trip over rocks placed in their way.