Rant? Speed in Hero

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

If I was going to use cards, I'd deal them out by SPD, ie SPD 4 character gets 4 cards, SPD 3 guy gets 3, etc. Then I'd count down from the highest card (Ace or King, depending on what mood you're in, but please be consistent), and characters can act when a card they hold is called. Anyone can, of course, hang on to that Queen just to see what the other guy is going to do (Holding a Phase). When all cards have been called, the turn is over.

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I have a post around here about using cards and the idea of adding the Joker into the mix...

[5 Sided D6]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I too have thought of using the D12 option but never have tried it yet. I wonder if having each pc/npc(major npcs at least) roll there own D12 would work. It would solve the problem of everyone going at same time. I have saw people who also use d12 then every time you do not get a action you increase speed by+1, i.e. spd 4 rolls, does not roll 4 or below, rolls again this time needing a 5 or lower ect, once you go then you reset to your normal speed. Of course would have to use some 'mook' rule so you didn't have to roll for every agent/normal. Maybe having them get one phase every 4 or 5 rolls.

[Force]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

True. Conversely, just because someone is a trained delta force member it doesn't mean that they should run faster than the next guy who is in similar physical shape, but doesnt have the combat training.

 

This is why I proposed buying movement in inches per turn, then dividing by one's SPD to get movement per phase*. You want to run faster? Buy Running. You want to take more actions in combat? Buy SPD.

 

*Movement per turn would preferrably be evenly divisible by a character's SPD in order to avoid having to keep track of the odd inches. Also.. movement would be halved in cost.

 

This seems to lend credence to ghost's original assertion that spd is simply the number of actions you can take in a turn.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

This seems to lend credence to ghost's original assertion that spd is simply the number of actions you can take in a turn.

Regardess of the debate over what SPD represents in real life' date=' the truth is that's exactly what SPD represents in the game: [i']the number of actions you can take in a turn.[/i]

 

Anything else is really just geeks arguing trivia.

[Gary]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

No, I just roll a dice. On a 1, everybody acts and gets a "post 12" recovery afterwards. That way, I simply roll and call out - "Spd 4" or "Spd 2" and everyone with a SPD that high or higher goes in DEX order. Dice scores higher than any available SPD are "dead" phases when anyone with a held action can go.

 

It's not an attempt to *exactly* recreate the SPD chart - rather it's an attempt to make combat a little less wargamey and a little more chaotic (plus it reduces the GM's workload: I don't track what phase it is, which helps a lot when I have 20+ NPCs of varying SPDs in the fight).

 

There are issues (though personally I find them features, rather than bugs). "A turn" is still 12 seconds, but the number of actions in a turn is now slightly fluid - A turn's defined by how often a 1 comes up rather than the precise number of actions, which can cause problems for players who want to be able to precisely estimate END use and similar things: they end up with an approximation of how long things take, not precise knowledge. Out of combat, I just assume standrd number of actions based on SPD, but in combat things can go wrong - I've once ended up with players burning STUN to stay in the fight because a 1 was unusually long in coming, but I just translate that to "unusually intense period of combat" - one of those scenes in the movie where characters are just relentlessly attacking with no pause. Likewise, a turn where I roll a lot of 2's and everyone is attacking, translates to a scene where the combatants are throwing attacks as fast as they can manage.

 

I tend to run "cinematically" so in the last FH session we had a memorable instance (a fight on a smuggler's ship) where I rolled 4 "4's" in a row. Most of the PCs and NPCs involved were SPD 3 or lower, so the SPD 4 warrior with two-sword fighting basically butchered her way across the deck and up onto the sterncastle to fight the captain. I called that (and described it) as her catching them slightly offguard and basically sprinting through them with swords slashing "like a web of steel" in best Belit-fashion. The player loved it and though that was big plus for her, it is balanced by an earlier fight where I rolled bunch of "2's" and the captured leader of the smugglers and his henchmen put up a much tougher fight than expected.

 

cheers, Mark

 

How do you handle it if elapsed time becomes a factor? Suppose the party needs to get past the defenders before a bomb explodes in 15 seconds. What would happen if you rolled a couple of early 1's and there are still lots of defenders around? How would you handle something like a chase?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Regardess of the debate over what SPD represents in real life' date=' the truth is that's exactly what SPD represents in the game: [i']the number of actions you can take in a turn.[/i]

 

Anything else is really just geeks arguing trivia.

 

That's the sum of it all.

 

Here's my chart:

 

SPD 1 = slow

SPD 12 = fast

SPD 2-11 = faster than 1, slower than 12.

 

RPGs are only going to go so far in simulating real life. They will always break down when we talk "actions" because, well, real life doesn't operate that way.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

 

This whole thread started with a new poster equating SPD with combat experience (or training), and having that interpretation called "simple minded and wrong" by a long time poster.

 

Of course, many of my ideas are likely to be simple minded. After all, I've only been playing Hero since 1985.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

In retrospect... the words "single minded" would probably have worked better.

 

But really, the way the thread started - as a berating statement against a new player - is what set me towards that reaction.

[Markdoc]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I too have thought of using the D12 option but never have tried it yet. I wonder if having each pc/npc(major npcs at least) roll there own D12 would work. It would solve the problem of everyone going at same time. I have saw people who also use d12 then every time you do not get a action you increase speed by+1' date=' i.e. spd 4 rolls, does not roll 4 or below, rolls again this time needing a 5 or lower ect, once you go then you reset to your normal speed. Of course would have to use some 'mook' rule so you didn't have to roll for every agent/normal. Maybe having them get one phase every 4 or 5 rolls.[/quote']

 

I thought about that - but it would add a huge amount of dice rolling and extra complexity. Faced with that, I'd rather use the SPD chart.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

How do you handle it if elapsed time becomes a factor? Suppose the party needs to get past the defenders before a bomb explodes in 15 seconds. What would happen if you rolled a couple of early 1's and there are still lots of defenders around? How would you handle something like a chase?

 

Elapsed time out of combat simply proceeds as "SPD actions per turn" - which is 12 seconds. That applies to things like "defuse the bomb", which if you only have 15 seconds is likely to be a single roll with the bonus for taking a turn to make the roll. (which is why in the movies, the bomb is always stopped with a few seconds on the clock - they take the max time available to get a bonus on defusing it )

 

In the situation you suggest, I'd probably simply give the players X actions to get past the bomb rather than letting the storyline sit on a random dice roll, although doing the latter would certainly add to the tension. But in such a situation, you are to some extent always at the mercy of the dice - a few bad attack or damage rolls can also lead to an unanticipated result.

 

If chases are "in combat" ie: chasing someone down the block, we go by dice roll. If longer, by "SPD actions per turn". The former tends to lead to unpredictable chases (kind of like in the movies), the latter to the faster character accelerating rapidly out of harm's way. If a chase starts in combat and then leads to a longer chase, I stop the dice rolling when the faster charcter has any sort of reasonable lead (usually sufficient that 1 or 2 rolls is not enough to catch him) and simply state that the faster charcter is pulling away too fast to catch - at which point the pursuer has to fall back on cunning plans.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

These are very reasonable issues to consider. As well' date=' a low DEX character can simply look around, decide pretty much everyone else has already acted, and take a recovery, secure that he will be able to Abort after the next die roll if he needs to get his DCV back. I hadn't thought of this "new metagame" aspect.[/quote']

 

The option you mention above is one I don't recall seeing (probably because it's a pretty suboptimal tactic unless you really, really need a recovery: the faster guys are always going to act if you can, all but ensuring an abort - and one in which you can't assign any levels: you are going to be giving up two actions and a good chance of getting hit for a recovery). In such a situation you are probably better off seeking cover and taking a recovery there.

 

Nonetheless, you are right: there are a few metagame options - it is a game construct, after all. But they are far fewer and less instrusive than those available with the SPD chart, which was my prime reason for moving away from it.

 

cheers, Mark

[archermoo]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Of course' date=' many of my ideas are likely to be simple minded. After all, I've only been playing Hero since 1985.[/quote']

 

Newby!

 

[archermoo]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

That's the sum of it all.

 

Here's my chart:

 

SPD 1 = slow

SPD 12 = fast

SPD 2-11 = faster than 1, slower than 12.

 

RPGs are only going to go so far in simulating real life. They will always break down when we talk "actions" because, well, real life doesn't operate that way.

 

Your chart is too simplistic to be taken seriously. Everyone knows it should really be:

 

SPD 1 = Slow

SPD 2 = Faster than 1, Slower than 3

SPD 3 = Faster than 2, Slower than 4

SPD 4 = Faster than 3, Slower than 5

SPD 5 = Faster than 4, Slower than 6

SPD 6 = Faster than 5, Slower than 7

SPD 7 = Faster than 6, Slower than 8

SPD 8 = Faster than 7, Slower than 9

SPD 9 = Faster than 8, Slower than 10

SPD 10 = Faster than 9, Slower than 11

SPD 11 = Faster than 10, Slower than 12

SPD 12 = Fastiest

 

[Greywind]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

You have way too much time on your hands...

[archermoo]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

You have way too much time on your hands...

 

Multiple paste is your friend.

 

That and the main application I support is down right now, due to the server going tits up. They should have the server back up Real Soon Now...

[casualplayer]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

You got me there, I was calculating based on velocity, which HERO defines as movement per turn (SPD*Move per phase). The vaguarities of impulse movement technically invalidate the sprint example. Of course, the SPD 2 normal -did- spend 48 points., whereas the SPD 3 and 4 guys only spent 26. If we allow everyone to spend 60 points (so the SPD 6 guy can just buy SPD):

 

SPD 2 = 23" = Finishes Segment 6 (19" past the finish line)

SPD 3 = 20" = Finishes Segment 4 (1" past the finish line) +2 points unspent

SPD 4 = 18" = Finishes Segment 3 (_4" past the finsh line)

SPD 5 = 13" = Finishes Segment 5 (15" past the finish line)

SPD 6 = _6" = Finishes Segment 8 (_4" past the finish line)

 

I wasn't trying to "get you" as much as echo your mention of how badly SPD and movement work together currently in HERO. I tend to agree that movement should be bought Per Turn and apportioned over phases.

[Comic]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I wasn't trying to "get you" as much as echo your mention of how badly SPD and movement work together currently in HERO. I tend to agree that movement should be bought Per Turn and apportioned over phases.

In First Edition rules there was an option for segmented movement, but it was considered cumbersome and not recommended.

 

Has it been abandoned entirely in FRED?

 

I mean, losing the First Edition rules for converting food bribes to XP is one thing, but why give up segmented movement?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

In First Edition rules there was an option for segmented movement, but it was considered cumbersome and not recommended.

 

Has it been abandoned entirely in FRED?

 

I mean, losing the First Edition rules for converting food bribes to XP is one thing, but why give up segmented movement?

 

It's there. 5ER p366

 

It gets a very expanded explanation in The Ultimate Speedster p208

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Not a bad speed chart, with some exceptions.

 

I always find it amusing that someone always thinks that just because you can run fast (olympic sprinter) or you can do gymnastics (olympic athlete) you should get more actions in a turn.

 

Because in sports where speed is a major factor, athelets continuously train themselves to be faster. Not just to run faster, but to react faster in order to play better. For example, take a basketball player. An NBA ball player has to be quick. He's got to be able to continuously dribble the ball while the opposition is constantly trying to take it from him while simultaneously make it to the opposite end of the court to either set himself up for a good shot at the basket, or pass it to a teamate who has a good shot at the basket. You gotta be quick, or the opposition will simply take the ball from you before you have a chance to think twice about it.

 

many (but not all) Olympic atheletes train even harder than professional atheletes. They are supposed to be the best of the best in the world and oftentimes world records are at stake during their competitions. Of course, I'm not saying that all Olympic atheletes would be SPD4...just the ones that use speed as a major part of their sport, and only the best ever reach SPD4.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Because in sports where speed is a major factor' date=' athelets continuously train themselves to be faster. Not just to run faster, but to react faster in order to play better. For example, take a basketball player. An NBA ball player has to be [i']quick[/i]. He's got to be able to continuously dribble the ball while the opposition is constantly trying to take it from him while simultaneously make it to the opposite end of the court to either set himself up for a good shot at the basket, or pass it to a teamate who has a good shot at the basket. You gotta be quick, or the opposition will simply take the ball from you before you have a chance to think twice about it.

 

many (but not all) Olympic atheletes train even harder than professional atheletes. They are supposed to be the best of the best in the world and oftentimes world records are at stake during their competitions. Of course, I'm not saying that all Olympic atheletes would be SPD4...just the ones that use speed as a major part of their sport, and only the best ever reach SPD4.

 

On the flipside - Olympic Athlete's train to don one thing and one thing only most of the time. Sprinters train themselves to go very very fast in a strait line. No real hand eye coordination, no run-catch-throw, just go that way real fast (they don't even get the "if something gets in your way turn" part of the instructions).

 

It comes down to modeling what you want:

A lot of actions - Speed.

Go really fast - Movement.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

For example' date=' take a basketball player. An NBA ball player has to be [i']quick[/i]. He's got to be able to continuously dribble the ball while the opposition is constantly trying to take it from him while simultaneously make it to the opposite end of the court to either set himself up for a good shot at the basket, or pass it to a teamate who has a good shot at the basket. You gotta be quick, or the opposition will simply take the ball from you before you have a chance to think twice about it.

 

These are basically sustained actions and the overall effect of high Dex and Skill levels with Basketball, not a justification for better combat reactions than a SEAL.

 

I mean playing basketball vs. a Seal? Water polo, maybe.

[Greywind]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Of course' date=' I'm not saying that all Olympic atheletes would be SPD4...just the ones that use speed as a major part of their sport, and only the best ever reach SPD4.[/quote']

How do you know they don't hit SPD5?

[Comic]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

How do you know they don't hit SPD5?

Well, because SPD 5 is a terrible rhythm to dribble to.

 

Three seconds, two seconds, three seconds, two seconds, two seconds?

 

What's up with that?

 

Try keeping that count going in your head while a half dozen guys are trying to strip the ball from you.

[Greywind]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

And here I thought stripping was when a guy goes up for a shot and one of the opposing players trips and grabs his shorts on the way to the floor. One going up. One going down...