WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

[Spence]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

This is how I handle this. Not telling anyone what to do, but this works for me

 

1) CV calculations: There always seems to be at least one guy in the group who just has to work out every single modifier that could apply to the roll. So' date=' the rest of the group sits idly by while the number-crunchers go at it. This includes hex-counting, which I noticed someone mentioned. My attitude (as a player) is to look at the GM and simply ask, "Did it succeed or not?", or (as a GM) to come up with a number partly based on how cool the maneuver is and tell the player to go ahead and roll it. This latter method has been known to bring the number-crunchers to tears of rage. [/quote']

 

Not a problem in my games. Players only give me their CV's. The only thing they have to add is whther they are using any bonuses due to skill, talents or powers. The GM determines all other modifiers.

 

Superdude: "I attack by throwing the car at Evil Villain Dude. I have an OCV of 6 and will use my 2 combat skill levels, making it OCV 8."

 

GM: (calculates relevant mods) "Great, you need a 12 to hit."

 

No fuss, no muss, no problem.

 

 

 

2) Power or skill rulings: Someone wants to do something and the page-turning starts to figure out if the power/skill used can actually do it. My attitude is: if the character's paid 60 points for a VPP and the effect of the attack fits the effect of the Pool, why do we need to calculate the specific power that created the effect? If someone's worked it out beforehand, great. Otherwise, let's just assume he has what he needs and move on. The effect trumps the rules every time.

 

All of the PC's abilities are on the character sheet. Before the session I review any new powers and therefore already know what they can do. I make any notes on my GM copy of the character sheet.

 

In play the players simply indicates what they are trying to do. If necessary I will rule on the fly. After the session we can discuss it, but during actual play cracking the book equals “hero is dithering in indecision” and play moves to next player.

 

A point though, we will and do take time outs before a combat to run over things for new players and make sure they have a handle on things, and in combat the GM and other players will prompt new players if they seem to be lost about something.

 

But the D&D 3.5 standard practice of having 25 books with half a hundred book markers open in front of each player just doesn’t fly in games I run. For a supers game the only “books” I keep out are the game shield from the resource kit and the Combat Hand Book. Everything else is on my notes pages, scenario write-ups, and PC/NPC/Villain characters sheets.

 

 

3) Edition changes: Even, or I should say especially, experienced players get caught by this one. Rules changes in the new editions inevitably spark combat-delaying discussions about what a power or skill can now do or not do. See 2 above.

 

I actually don’t get this one. Hero 5th Revised came out in 2002 (I believe) and it didn’t actually change any rules, just clarified some and fixed typo’s and such. Hero 5th came out in what 2000? It has been over 7 years since anything really changed. I was tripped up a few times by a couple of things. But that was way back in '01(?). Overall, there really weren’t that many “changes”, and unless you have been playing 7+ years that is.

As far as rules arbitration, when in doubt I make a on the spot call and then we discuss it later.

[Spence]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I propose a theory. My theory is that it isn't that combat in Hero is too slow but combat in other systems is too quick. Most combat systems cut out the little nuances that make combat grand. I mean' date=' sure there are a lot of rules and it takes forever, but I have actually cut the strap to a saddle and made an acrobatics role to "swing" under the horse and kick the rider off his steed, sending him toppling to the ground. You can't do stuff like that and make it "fast".[/quote']

 

I don't see why not.

 

Of course I wouldn't cut the strap before swinging under since saddle rider and PC would all fly free as soon as the cinch gave way.

 

But lets see, swing under and kick the rider free. That needs two rolls. One for the acrobatics to swing under, and one to hit for the kick. Simple.

 

Player: I want use my Acrobatics to allow Lawman Dan to grab the saddle cinch to swing under the horse and kick the rider out of the saddle.

 

GM: What is your Acrobatics roll and your OCV.

 

Player: Acrobatics is 12- and OCV is 5.

 

GM: Any skill levels?

 

Player: Oh, right. OCV +2 makes it a OCV 7.

 

GM: You need a 8- for the acrobatic roll……….

[archermoo]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I have never found Hero system combat to be any slower than any of the other RPGs that I've played. I for the most part use the rules straight out of the book. Heck, I even use a pretty good selection of option rules. For instance, I generally use the Hit Location chart for all killing attacks in all genres.

 

My suggestion for speeding up Hero combat are the same suggestions I give for any game. Make sure the players know what they are going to do before it is their turn. Or that they have at least thought about it. I've never seen any need to make any of the sweeping changes that seem popular here with some people. I LIKE the SPD chart. I LIKE rolling low to hit and high for damage. I like rolling my dice and counting them up.

[Silbeg]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Good observations. If I may respond a bit...

 

This includes hex-counting

 

In my game I don't allow counting until the attack has been declared (and once declared, it cannot be taken back). The only exception to this is for a character with Absolute Range Sense. This can also be helped with a ruler (or precut pieces of string for the various range bands).

Power or skill rulings:

I require anything that isn't a "vanilla power" to have been predefined (and approved). Does this limit VPPs too much? Not in my experience. Most players with a VPP don't have a problem with defining a bunch of powers. the USPD and various Ultimate books are also useful.

[Tech]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Let me think.. what slows down combat in the campaign I'm in. Hmmm..

 

Well, it'd have to be all the roleplaying!

 

Seriously, if we cut out all the chatter between the heroes & the villains, the threats of the bad guys, the quick jabs of the good guys, etc etc., the combat would go very quickly.

 

Then again, isn't roleplaying what the game is about, not having a number vs number battle?

[Tech]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

A follow-up to my post:

 

The movie "The Sound of Music" (a musical) was going to be played in Japan. There was a time limit the movie had to be played within for some reason, so one guy came up with a great way to fit "The Sound of Music" within the timeslot...

 

he cut out all of the scenes with music.

 

Applying it to us playing the Hero System:

We cannot cut out that which is most important in our campaigns, otherwise we cut out the heart of that which is most fun.

[Spence]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I require anything that isn't a "vanilla power" to have been predefined (and approved). Does this limit VPPs too much? Not in my experience. Most players with a VPP don't have a problem with defining a bunch of powers. the USPD and various Ultimate books are also useful.

 

I do the same thing. It never dawned on me that people would do it differently.

 

The only way someone changes things in game would be like a gadgeteer. And then they can only do like to like. For instance a gadgeteer who make his skill rolls could modify an active sonar device into a sonic weapon, etc. But the sonar device would have had to be defined prior to the session.

[wylodmayer]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I have to agree with the others who don't find HERO combat slow. I've been playing the game since 3rd edition, and - after an initial learning-curve period - never thought it was particularly slow. It doesn't involve additional steps, honestly, than other games.

 

HERO: Tell the GM who you're attacking, and your "to hit" situation (final CV); GM tells you what you need. Roll. Assuming you hit, roll damage. GM marks down damage. Move on.

 

AN UNNAMED FANTASY GAME: Tell the GM who you're attacking, and your "to hit" situation (total bonus to hit); GM tells you what you need. Roll. Assuming you hit, roll damage. GM marks down damage. Move on.

 

There is a potential slow-down here in only one place I can see, and that's rolling for damage. There's just more dice to count, and if you're worried about BODY, that takes a bit longer. But honestly, this is a minor, minor difference, a matter of a few seconds per roll, a total of a few minutes per fight.

 

The real problem was, I think, nailed by Balabanto. Players in HERO often don't learn the combat rules. There's no good reason for this; they're not even markedly more complex than the combat rules for UNNAMED FANTASY GAME, in it's current edition. Dithering, mentioned by many others, can be partially the result of having a poor grasp on said rules. The GM needs to educate his players, or force them to educate themselves.

[Spence]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

For instance, I generally use the Hit Location chart for all killing attacks in all genres.

 

 

How does that work for you in Supers games?

[Spence]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

The real problem was, I think, nailed by Balabanto. Players in HERO often don't learn the combat rules. There's no good reason for this; they're not even markedly more complex than the combat rules for UNNAMED FANTASY GAME, in it's current edition. Dithering, mentioned by many others, can be partially the result of having a poor grasp on said rules. The GM needs to educate his players, or force them to educate themselves.

 

Hear! Hear! Well said!

[NestorDRod]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I disagree completely with your last statement. HERO's approach demands a certain level system vocabulary knowledge not only from the GM but the players if they want to take advantage of the options and still manage to have quick combats. Players that complain about HERO combat length either don't want to bother to actually learn the system or want to munchkin the system vs. their GM. The former group is probably too lazy for HERO and the latter are going to be problematic players no matter what system is played.

 

You're welcome to disagree. But if what you say is true, I fear that does not bode well in attracting new players to the Hero System. There are a number of RPGs out there that do not require an intimate familiarity of the rules to play (as opposed to GM, of course).

 

If I, as a potential participant, were to face the choice between having to achieve some sort of certified level of expertise to play a particular game or just jump in and start playing in another, I'd likely choose the latter. I'm here to have fun, not study.

[NestorDRod]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

A follow-up to my post:

 

The movie "The Sound of Music" (a musical) was going to be played in Japan. There was a time limit the movie had to be played within for some reason, so one guy came up with a great way to fit "The Sound of Music" within the timeslot...

 

he cut out all of the scenes with music.

 

Applying it to us playing the Hero System:

We cannot cut out that which is most important in our campaigns, otherwise we cut out the heart of that which is most fun.

 

Well said, sir. The rub is that, unfortunately, there are folks to whom the roleplaying, the interaction and the improv acting are the fun part, and others to whom the tactics, strategizing, and moving figures on a map appeal more.

 

I'm certainly not advocating removing one aspect for the sake of the other. They're both perfectly fine attitudes to have, but when you have both of them in the same game, it can be difficult finding the happy medium, especially when running a combat.

 

C'est la vie, c'est la guerre, say no more...

[Tech]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Well said, sir. The rub is that, unfortunately, there are folks to whom the roleplaying, the interaction and the improv acting are the fun part, and others to whom the tactics, strategizing, and moving figures on a map appeal more.

 

I'm certainly not advocating removing one aspect for the sake of the other. They're both perfectly fine attitudes to have, but when you have both of them in the same game, it can be difficult finding the happy medium, especially when running a combat.

 

C'est la vie, c'est la guerre, say no more...

 

I didn't mention the tactical appeal but I totally agree. Tactics can be so much fun, equal to roleplaying. There's more than one character in the Champions campaign I'm in that has the Tactics skill.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I don't see why not.

 

Of course I wouldn't cut the strap before swinging under since saddle rider and PC would all fly free as soon as the cinch gave way.

 

But lets see, swing under and kick the rider free. That needs two rolls. One for the acrobatics to swing under, and one to hit for the kick. Simple.

 

Player: I want use my Acrobatics to allow Lawman Dan to grab the saddle cinch to swing under the horse and kick the rider out of the saddle.

 

GM: What is your Acrobatics roll and your OCV.

 

Player: Acrobatics is 12- and OCV is 5.

 

GM: Any skill levels?

 

Player: Oh, right. OCV +2 makes it a OCV 7.

 

GM: You need a 8- for the acrobatic roll……….

I believe the entire action went as a 7 Roll event over two phases. If you include the third phase, combat looked really nice for my character.

 

Phase 12: (I'm surrounded in non-combat)

• Shift of DEX Skill Level to Fastdraw.
  
• Shift CSL to DCV vs. Swords.
  
• Draw Rapier, Failed Roll take Half Phase to Draw.
  
• Attack Roll to Saddle 13- needed. (3 DCV, -2 Penalty vs. 7 OCV).
  Guards Draw Weapons for remaining half-phase. Nearest guard makes DEX to remain balanced on horse.
  PC in party uses a change environment to turn the ground into Ice (Dex rolls to remain standing).
  

 

Phase 3

• Shift of DEX Skill Level to Breakfall.
  
• Acrobatics to Swing up and kick the target. Made Roll.
  
• Attack Roll to Hit. Surprise move gives Half DCV to target, -2 Penalty imposed on attack. Hit.
  
• Guard Falls, fails breakfall and is on the ground.
  
• Land on ground and toss saddle at Guard 2 as a distraction. Make Breakfall to successfully land on feet.
  

Guard on ground recovers from STUNNING. Guard on horse near me attacks after tossing the saddle aside (0 phase) and misses.

 

Phase 6

• Fire Crossbow Bracers at Guard on Horseback. 0" Range. First bracer at 14-, second bracer at 12-. Two hits, guard knocked out and falls.
  

Guard on ground stands and makes an attack, misses.

 

Phase 9

• Shift CSL to OCV with Swords.
  
• Disarm vs. Guard #1 and successfully knock his sword away.
  

Guard draws dagger and realizes at this point, the other guards are mostly defeated by the rest of party. He surrenders.

 

Gotta say that I love:

Psych Limitation: Swashbuckler's Flare (Total, Common)

[archermoo]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

How does that work for you in Supers games?

 

Quite well. I've used it instead of a d6 for STUNX for quite some time, and it has never seemed unbalancing.

[archermoo]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

You're welcome to disagree. But if what you say is true, I fear that does not bode well in attracting new players to the Hero System. There are a number of RPGs out there that do not require an intimate familiarity of the rules to play (as opposed to GM, of course).

 

If I, as a potential participant, were to face the choice between having to achieve some sort of certified level of expertise to play a particular game or just jump in and start playing in another, I'd likely choose the latter. I'm here to have fun, not study.

 

I've run Hero games for people who only had a passing familiarity with the rules. They would just describe what they wanted to do, and I'd translate it into Hero.

 

Hero allows you to get into the nuts and bolts of it. But it doesn't require it.

[pinecone]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I find much of the slowdown is players (and GM's) taking extended periods of time to analyze every possible alernative in an effort to optimize their action. Try restricting this. For example:

 

- You have 5 seconds to declare your action. If you don't devcide in that five seconds (which is more time than your entire phase occupies in game time!), your character hesitates (delays his phase) and the next person in action order gets to move.

 

- Absolutely no counting of hexes permitted. You don't get to ocunt out the hexes to determine how close you can get with a half move, or what yur range penalties will be. You simply announce "I will move closer to Bulldozer, and fire my EB at him when I'm within 4" or at the end of my half move", or "I will rush Bulldozer - if I can, I'll close and punch him, otherwise I'll do a move through". Not count count count; determine who I can get to in a half move; pick one to attack".

 

Totally agree with ya...it's mainly a personality issue. Want to agonize for a long time? Skip a phase while you do it, otherwise take an action. We're talking about a 1 to 3 second period here, and that includes the action....

[Super Squirrel]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I didn't mention the tactical appeal but I totally agree. Tactics can be so much fun' date=' equal to roleplaying. There's more than one character in the Champions campaign I'm in that has the Tactics skill.[/quote']

You know... you just made me realize that I have not read the information for Tactics in The Ultimate Skill.

[Spence]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I've run Hero games for people who only had a passing familiarity with the rules. They would just describe what they wanted to do, and I'd translate it into Hero.

 

Hero allows you to get into the nuts and bolts of it. But it doesn't require it.

 

Two of the players in my current game are new to Hero and one hasn't even flipped through the rules. They are having a good time.

 

Just because the option exists, doesn't mean you have to use it

[Gary]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

One thing to consider is that even starting Hero characters are pretty tough and have lots of options/flexibility in any combat. A starting 350 character is probably the equivalent of a 15th level D&D character in complexity/power if not higher.

 

Low level D&D combats are much faster than Hero combats and just fly because the characters are much simpler and there's a lot less to keep track of. If you have a 15 level campaign however, combat can take just as long if not longer than Hero depending on the classes/items/abilities of the party and the monsters they're fighting.

[Comic]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Hard to roll dice, eat chips, drink Jolt, read the book and build new characters all at the same time while keeping track of the combat clock.

[NestorDRod]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I've run Hero games for people who only had a passing familiarity with the rules. They would just describe what they wanted to do, and I'd translate it into Hero.

 

Hero allows you to get into the nuts and bolts of it. But it doesn't require it.

 

I agree wholeheartedly, believe me.

 

I just finished playing in a campaign where we had two players totally new to Hero (actually, three if you count one who had not played it in a long time). All enjoyed the game fully, and the two newbies have embraced the system to the point where they've bought the books, and one is even starting his own campaign using Hero.

 

I was pointing out my concern with Hyper-man's statement because it implied that a player needed to be well-versed in the system to be able to fully participate, when my own experience showed to the contrary.

 

My apologies if I misunderstood...

[rjcurrie]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I do the same thing. It never dawned on me that people would do it differently.

 

The only way someone changes things in game would be like a gadgeteer. And then they can only do like to like. For instance a gadgeteer who make his skill rolls could modify an active sonar device into a sonic weapon, etc. But the sonar device would have had to be defined prior to the session.

 

Another approach to only let people who are well-versed in the system have VPPs that can be changed in play. Or you could just let the player with the VPP say what they want to do and the GM comes up with the actual power on the fly.

[rjcurrie]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

HERO: Tell the GM who you're attacking' date=' and your "to hit" situation (final CV); GM tells you what you need. Roll. Assuming you hit, roll damage. GM marks down damage. Move on.[/quote']

 

Actually when I run at conventions, I have the player dec;are who they are attacking, what maneuver he is using, and where his levels are. Then I have them roll the dice and, if necessary, I work out if it hit. I say if necessary because if the player rolls very high or very low, it is usually obvious that they have missed or hit without any further calculation.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Another approach to only let people who are well-versed in the system have VPPs that can be changed in play. Or you could just let the player with the VPP say what they want to do and the GM comes up with the actual power on the fly.

 

Mostly I prefer not allow VPPs that can have powers added on the fly. I like to have myself and players I GM create a list of Powers they can choose from, new powers must be created between sessions - or if a session has a break during that. But never during play.