How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

[nexus]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

That's as valid a choice as any other; your game, your call. Personally I don't pass PCs who can't survive the expected dangers of an average combat, even in my "gritty" superhero campaigns; there's no fun for me in planning a three act story arc around a character only to have them blown to pieces in Act 2, Scene 1.

 

And noting again that while there's some crossover between "Fail", "Get Knocked Out", "Get Injured", and "Get Killed", there are also important differences. PCs getting knocked out, injured, or failing to meet a mission objective wouldn't be a problem in most of the games I ran. An unplanned PC death usually would be.

 

I think you've misunderstood my point. I will tell a player if their defenses are low for the game but if they want to take the risk, that is their choice to make and play accordingly. If they are killed that would be unfortunate but I don't do "script immunity" in most games I run. If the PC takes enough damage they can be killed and I don't plan character deaths (unless its deliberately requested) but I don't plan to avoid them.

 

Also, I didn't say that death was the only way to present failure. I pointed out I don't try avoid any of them. Some and I note, some supers gms run their games with a high degree of genre emulation in that the heroes ARE going to win, it just a matter of time and how. I was pointing out I'm not one of them not that there is something wrong with the style.

 

There are plenty of example of this even in the source material' date=' such as Darkseid casually backhanding Batman rather than using a full power attack because "this puny mortal is unworthy to face the mighty Darkseid." [/quote']

 

Yep, but you don't even have to "rationalize" it if you don't have to. Its a genre trope. "The rule of inverse lethality", IIRC. "The most likely an attack is to kill a hero, the less likely it is hit"

[nexus]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

I can see the Gilt Complex underlaying point in one fashion. In ome ways the CAK isn't a very bid disadvantage in most superheroic games. It rarely harder to knock someone then kill them and its very difficult to kil someone "accidentally" in Hero/Champions if they're built to campaign specification so you get many PCs with CAK just wading into combat through the powers at full effect knowing their not going to kill or even seriously injure most characters, even agents. Some "squishy" villians can be a wake up call that "CAK" isn't free points.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

I can see the Gilt Complex underlaying point in one fashion. In ome ways the CAK isn't a very bid disadvantage in most superheroic games. It rarely harder to knock someone then kill them and its very difficult to kil someone "accidentally" in Hero/Champions if they're built to campaign specification so you get many PCs with CAK just wading into combat through the powers at full effect knowing their not going to kill or even seriously injure most characters' date=' even agents. Some "squishy" villians can be a wake up call that "CAK" isn't free points.[/quote']To a large extent I think CvK was introduced way back in 1st Edition Champions with the specific intent of reining in players raised on hack n' slash games like D&D. By giving them Disadvantage points for not killing, it reinforces the comic book trope that heroes generally don't kill.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

To the Gilt Complex: The article must be read with the characters. In the article, the writer notes that this kind of strategy should be a last resort, and that one should first talk to the player(s) about their lack of restraint.

[Zorak1003]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

"

To the Gilt Complex: The article must be read with the characters. In the article, the writer notes that this kind of strategy should be a last resort, and that one should first talk to the player(s) about their lack of restraint."

 

I did read it, and I've had 20 years to think about it. I stand behind my criticism. Unless the PCs have ALREADY done some serious mayhem, you don't have a problem. If you THINK you do, then you (the GM) are building the bad guys too strong. And you are not going to make a point about DOING TOO MUCH DAMAGE with artificially fragile characters.

 

Now, having said all that- Using some sort of parallel situation, where a mastermind villain puts some idiot patsy in a supervillain costume- Maybe with a remotely controlled forcefield the mastermind can shut off at an inconveiniant moment- In order to have a hero commit "murder", is a pretty good idea for a plot. The patsy needn't be excessively fragile, and if he had a forcefield that meant the first few hits didn't bother him, the PCs would understandable deliver full power blows and pulverize the poor schmoe.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

I did read it, and I've had 20 years to think about it. I stand behind my criticism. Unless the PCs have ALREADY done some serious mayhem, you don't have a problem. If you THINK you do, then you (the GM) are building the bad guys too strong. And you are not going to make a point about DOING TOO MUCH DAMAGE with artificially fragile characters.

 

Now, having said all that- Using some sort of parallel situation, where a mastermind villain puts some idiot patsy in a supervillain costume- Maybe with a remotely controlled forcefield the mastermind can shut off at an inconveiniant moment- In order to have a hero commit "murder", is a pretty good idea for a plot. The patsy needn't be excessively fragile, and if he had a forcefield that meant the first few hits didn't bother him, the PCs would understandable deliver full power blows and pulverize the poor schmoe.

That would have been a far better way to deal with an excessive force issue than the totally contrived Gilt Complex. That and a bit of appropriate fear on the part of innocent bystanders should get the message across.

 

If by that point the players don't moderate their characters' behavior to be less lethal, then the GM can either respond in kind with more lethal villains or switch to an Iron Age game.

[Vondy]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Roll with the punch' date=' and prayer. That's it.[/quote']

 

Yep. This is my standard.

 

As a brainstorm: Another option is to allow them to use combat skill levels in reverse - if combat skill levels can add DCs, as an optional rule you can allow them to reduce DCs (presuming they are in a position to switch them (0 Phase, usually).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Now' date=' having said all that- Using some sort of parallel situation, where a mastermind villain puts some idiot patsy in a supervillain costume- Maybe with a remotely controlled forcefield the mastermind can shut off at an inconveiniant moment- In order to have a hero commit "murder", is a pretty good idea for a plot. The patsy needn't be excessively fragile, and if he had a forcefield that meant the first few hits didn't bother him, the PCs would understandable deliver full power blows and pulverize the poor schmoe.[/quote']

 

Why not just have the heroes stop a bank robbery, carried out by normal human bank robbers? If the characters fire full-power attacks, they'll seriously injure, or even kill, people. Does EVERY opponent the characters ever face need to have defenses adequate to prevent the characters' super-powerful attacks from causing serious injury?

 

From there, it's not a huge step to imagine that someone with superpowers - but not super defenses - might put on a costume in a typical Super universe. If the heros always go in guns blazing, those guys get hospitalized or killed as well.

 

For that matter, how often have we seen the "hero" hit the opponent "once more, just to make sure". Does everyone have persistent defenses, or will he eventually kill a downed opponent?

 

The Gilt Complex was extremely heavy-handed. But it was noted as intended for players for whom the voice of reason has already failed. With that in mind, I don't expect I'd ever use them. If the voice of reason can't do the trick, new players are needed, not a lesson for the poor players. But they were also intended to send a message that some players don't seem to get - not every adversary is necessarily as Super as the Super Hero PC's.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Another thing that I'm often annoyed by is the all too common tendency to keep PD and ED close together in value. If the campaign range is 20-30 it seems that most characters buy their defenses to within a couple of points of each other, rather than having one of them high and the other low. Of course, in this theoretical example the average would be 25 in each, but another tendency I've noticed is the creep toward the upper end in all abilities. When OCV's are supposed to be 8-12 and attacks are supposed to be 40-60 AP for example, you'd think that would mean the 12 OCV guy would throw 40 point powers. In reality pc's rarely show such restraint on their own and every ability will likely be at the 'average or above level'. Everyone has a reason that one maxed out ability shouldn't require them to have a corresponding minimum ability elsewhere.

 

Anyway, back to defenses. It's perfectly justifiable to have characters with high PD and low ED or vice versa. Think about it, if you found that bullets bounced off you are you likely to splash yourself with freon to test your ED before you put on a superhero costume? Most people will attempt to make sure they're at least bullet-resistant before trying to rob a bank, but not too many will check their laser resistance.

 

If this is discussed with pc's in advance then it isn't a heavy handed approach at all.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

When OCV's are supposed to be 8-12 and attacks are supposed to be 40-60 AP for example' date=' you'd think that would mean the 12 OCV guy would throw 40 point powers. In reality pc's rarely show such restraint on their own and every ability will likely be at the 'average or above level'. Everyone has a reason that one maxed out ability shouldn't require them to have a corresponding minimum ability elsewhere.[/quote']Another reason I've come to dislike caps in supers games: To far too many people, preset power ranges for characters means if you're not allowed to spend as many points as you want on A, then spend the remaining points on B. Simple, and simply human nature. The inevitable result seems to be too many PCs with near-identical values for A and B.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Another thing that I'm often annoyed by is the all too common tendency to keep PD and ED close together in value. If the campaign range is 20-30 it seems that most characters buy their defenses to within a couple of points of each other' date=' rather than having one of them high and the other low. Of course, in this theoretical example the average would be 25 in each, but another tendency I've noticed is the creep toward the upper end in all abilities. When OCV's are supposed to be 8-12 and attacks are supposed to be 40-60 AP for example, you'd think that would mean the 12 OCV guy would throw 40 point powers.[/quote']

 

What you get is 12 OCV characters throwing 60 AP attacks and having defenses of 30. Once you set a campaign max, it tends to become the campaign norm, especially when the points available are more than sufficient to max out everything..

[bwdemon]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

What you get is 12 OCV characters throwing 60 AP attacks and having defenses of 30. Once you set a campaign max' date=' it tends to become the campaign norm, especially when the points available are more than sufficient to max out everything..[/quote']

 

Which is why you set a standard level and allow tradeoffs. Want more damage? Lower your OCV and/or SPD. Want higher defenses? Lower your DCV.

[Cancer]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Actually, another way of framing the opening question (a tendency to kill your high-skill, low DEF guys) is to turn it into a comment on your campaign. If the dark knight types are getting killed, then you're running an excessively brick-friendly campaign. IOW, your campaigns are leading to the same sort of combat every time, and those combats are all about doing and taking physical damage, rather than hitting. Or figuring out that where the target is. Or who the target is.

 

When your combats always happen on a standard battle mat, no more than 40 hexes long and 30 wide, then ... Bricks Rule. That's close range. And it's also the only circumstances where bricks are effective. It's the equivalent of a cage match. Dark knights get squished. Mentalists go squish. Energy projectors go squish. Speedsters are fast enough they can stay out of harm's way, if they play it right. Martial artists have the maneuvers to keep their CVs high enough to remain viable in that battle. Power-armer guys may be able to play there, too, but the gadgeteer can't, unless he has a hell of a Force Field gadget.

 

If your dark knights are ineffective, then you have to reconsider your campaign. Part of the dark knight shtick is the "protocol" trope: they only fight on their terms, with proper preparation, when the enemy is at a crucial disadvantage (and, preferably, that enemy doesn't know it). A dark knight without those things is just a squishy target. A cage match on a 20-by-30-hex board is NOT something those dark knights ought to be fighting in, except in interdiction/interception skirmishes (the robbery/burglary/kidnapping scene). And in those they shouldn't get killed, because the bad guys are doing a snatch and get-away thing, rather than a fight-to-the-death thing.

 

Are you letting your dark knight characters be prepared, call their own shots, and R&D the protocol they need? Or are you taking away the dark knight's glory, by letting the brick overcome every enemy by raw dumb STR at close quarters?

 

If the players misplaying their character concept and skipping the prep stuff, then it's partly their fault when they get splattered. But consider the possibility that your campaign structure excludes the opportunity for a DK type to be anything other than a soft-target ancillary in the cage matches.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

 

Or are you taking away the dark knight's glory, by letting the brick overcome every enemy by raw dumb STR at close quarters?

 

 

 

A lot of great stuff in this post, but I do take exception to the 'raw dumb STR' part. Strength is not dumb. Bricks are not dumb.

 

Mentalists are dumb.

[Zorak1003]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Hulk not DUMB! Hulk SMASH!!!

[Guest steamteck]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

A good map is anything but a cage match. If there are multiple streets, twisty alleys etc. or rough terrain anything can happen and often does. I would argue that encounter type is more the issue. My dark knight types do quite well and work hard and get the jump on most opponents. The also let the Brick walk draw the fire.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

When your combats always happen on a standard battle mat' date=' no more than 40 hexes long and 30 wide, then ... Bricks Rule. That's close range. And it's also the only circumstances where bricks are effective. It's the equivalent of a cage match.[/quote']Unless the characters are flatly not permitted to exit the hex map any real terrain is not a cage match. Our team has had splendid running battles ranging across many city blocks using standard hex maps. When things reached the edge, we just maintain the relative positions and move everything back towards the center.

[Greywind]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

We just use Dark Knight "Squish Guard". It's on the utility belt, right next to the Dark Knight Shark Repellent.

[Zorak1003]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

"Why not just have the heroes stop a bank robbery, carried out by normal human bank robbers?"

 

Why not, indeed, if you think you have the doing too much damage problem, and want the heroes to kill someone. Ask THAT of the creator of the Gilt Complex.

 

Why not in the case of my plot example? It's a PLOT example, not meant to teach the PC's a "lesson", just a villain screwing with their characters. Work quite well to frame any normally restrained code vs killing heroes into accidentally killing someone, allowing all kinds of nice character angst, bad publicity, courtroom drama, etc., etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

"Why not just have the heroes stop a bank robbery, carried out by normal human bank robbers?"

 

Why not, indeed, if you think you have the doing too much damage problem, and want the heroes to kill someone. Ask THAT of the creator of the Gilt Complex.

 

Why not in the case of my plot example? It's a PLOT example, not meant to teach the PC's a "lesson", just a villain screwing with their characters. Work quite well to frame any normally restrained code vs killing heroes into accidentally killing someone, allowing all kinds of nice character angst, bad publicity, courtroom drama, etc., etc.

 

Well, I can see PC's assuming that anyone in a constume is guaranteed to have defenses adequate to deal with their maximum damage, but agents and normals are softer targets.

 

And a PLOT EXAMPLE can also be meant to "teach the PC's a lesson". The Gilt Complex could easily be part of a much larger plotline revolving around the Ubermachine of Dr. Pythias Pomegranate transforming people into Supers - Supers who tend to have a good enough DCV that normals are little threat, and powerful attacks, but lacking in defenses so they crumble when hit. Let's take it one step further - maybe the diabolical Dr. P is DELIBERATELY using his Ubermachine to jack up the target's offensive pubnch, and not tellling them the result is a deterioration to their ability to survive a significant trauma - ie he is trying to frame any normally restrained code vs killing heroes into accidentally killing someone, allowing all kinds of nice character angst, bad publicity, courtroom drama, etc., etc.

 

Compare the game to the source material. In the comics, how often does Superman hit an unknown opponent with his full STR, or Cyclops fire off a maximum strength optic blast against an unknown adversary? Now, how often does a PC in your game ever use less than his full dice against anyone in a costume? Having Super characters who are eggshells with hammers forces the issue that full power is not the appropriate default setting when dealing with unknown opponents.

[Cancer]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

A good map is anything but a cage match. If there are multiple streets' date=' twisty alleys etc. or rough terrain anything can happen and often does. I would argue that encounter type is more the issue. My dark knight types do quite well and work hard and get the jump on most opponents. The also let the Brick walk draw the fire.[/quote']

 

Unless the characters are flatly not permitted to exit the hex map any real terrain is not a cage match. Our team has had splendid running battles ranging across many city blocks using standard hex maps. When things reached the edge' date=' we just maintain the relative positions and move everything back towards the center.[/quote']

 

QED! Both of these are cases where the dark knights aren't getting squished! You guys are doing it right. Purely as points of information: are there mentalists in the party, and if so, do they have to be on-map to participate in combat?

 

The one-punch TRM I've seen was in a cage match, almost literally, of the worst sort. Locked in the hold of a steel ship with an uber-brick. (We had the capacity to get out, but not while in combat.) Don't ask me how and why we got there; it's a sore point, and including the fatality, almost half the party are considering drawing up different characters or dropping entirely.

[CaptD]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

How about using martial block and a decent OCV?

[nexus]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

What you get is 12 OCV characters throwing 60 AP attacks and having defenses of 30. Once you set a campaign max' date=' it tends to become the campaign norm, especially when the points available are more than sufficient to max out everything..[/quote']

 

That's generally been may experience. The campaign max becomes the average and all the characters tend to look alike as far as basic numberes go.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

We just use Dark Knight "Squish Guard". It's on the utility belt' date=' right next to the [i']Dark Knight Shark Repellent.[/i]

 

 

Seems like a pretty big hole in your belt between 'Sh-' and 'Sq-'.

 

What about your Size Altering Spray? Where's your Skid Mark Analyzer? Or your Small Anti Tank Rounds? No Dark Knight Sniper Scope? Or Soiled Underwear Sampler?

 

Oh wait, that's redundant with the Skid Mark Analyzer.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

QED! Both of these are cases where the dark knights aren't getting squished! You guys are doing it right. Purely as points of information: are there mentalists in the party, and if so, do they have to be on-map to participate in combat?

 

The one-punch TRM I've seen was in a cage match, almost literally, of the worst sort. Locked in the hold of a steel ship with an uber-brick. (We had the capacity to get out, but not while in combat.) Don't ask me how and why we got there; it's a sore point, and including the fatality, almost half the party are considering drawing up different characters or dropping entirely.

 

Everybody does just fine. Mentalists included. In fact in most of my larger maps ,the bricks are often at a disadvantage. Sometimes although it becomes inevitable to step into someone else's circle/ area where they are at advantage. Our dark knight types often get others to step in their circle however.