How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

[arosslaw]

I love a mixed group as much as the next GM, but obviously worry about the stealthy detective getting hit by the blast that is designed to at least bother the brick. A lot of games these days have a hero point/willpower/etc. mechanic that allows characters to dodge/suck up/negate damage. Hero does not, and other than simply not trying to hit the stealthy guy with the big blast (which seems not right), what solutions have people come up with for when the guy with no significant defenses sucks up 20d6?

 

(btw, for purposes of this question, we are assuming there are groups that don't build every character so they can take a tank shot point blank without flinching)

[Comic]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Danger Sense

 

Missile Deflect

 

High Body + someone with healing

 

Damage Reduction

 

Roll with Punch or Dive For Cover levels

 

Never leaves cover when there's big guns around.

 

Astronomical Detective Work roll + KS bad guys + Analyze + suppress or disarm

 

Stealth. Stealth. Stealth. A fight is never won unless no one knows the invisible soldier was there.

 

Reputation for Sucker Maneuvers - sure, you can shoot him with the 20d6 blast, but can you ever be sure it's really him, or his image superimposed on your own teammate?

 

Respect. Your detective is too highly regarded by the villains to use lethal force against him. Or by the villains' masters to dare. But the brick? Fire at will.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Depends on the exact concept for your dark knight. Comic covered most of them but I would also throw in Luck and Combat Luck. A high DCV helps too, frequently because he is combat trained enough to anticipate opponent behavior. Finally, the dark knight type is all about knowing his opponent strengths and weaknesses and using his intellect to outwit the villain.

 

__________________________________________________________

You just can't kill him; he is like a cockroach! - Larry Drake on Darkman

[gojira]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Yupper. Combat Luck is probably the easiest. A massive DCV (lots of Dex + lots of levels) is next. Having lots of Knowledge skills that lets you know who you are up against and what their capabilities are before combat starts is a pretty good thematic way of evening the odds. Levels with perception, including hearing and sight -- make sure you see them before they see you.

[Checkmate]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

You could even use Desolid defined as hiding in his cape, sure he's in there, but where in there? Might try extra movement only for Dive for Cover manuver. Combat luck-like Damage Reduction (always rolls with the punch/blast).

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

"Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!"

 

 

(well, it's my preferred method anyways....)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

"Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!"

 

 

(well, it's my preferred method anyways....)

 

Don't you find it hard on the beak?

[Loxly]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Adding to Comics list ...

 

Who says they have to use the "Brick Bothering" attack at "Brick Bothering" levels

[JmOz]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

My archer (At ~450), had the following

 

7/7 Defenses

3/3 Combat Luck

10/10 OIF

 

25%/25% Damage reduction, w/ Combat luck lims + Activation on 15-

 

He also had about +2 DCV compared to his teammates

[arosslaw]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Ah, some misunderstanding as to the question. I was wondering what, if any, rules or tweaks people have for WHEN the squishy person is unfortunate enough to get hit. The squishy character has all his dodge and luck and what not, and we as GM's try not to arbitrarily direct the 20d6 AP Penetrating attack at him TOO often, but every now and then stuff happens and someone who just can't take a hit catches Grond's haymaker.

 

Then what? As mentioned in the OP, some systems have fate/luck/hero points people can spend to fend off death. Without those, do you fudge the roll? Tweak the damage? What?

[Alibear]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Roll with the punch, and prayer. That's it.

[OddHat]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Ah, some misunderstanding as to the question. I was wondering what, if any, rules or tweaks people have for WHEN the squishy person is unfortunate enough to get hit. The squishy character has all his dodge and luck and what not, and we as GM's try not to arbitrarily direct the 20d6 AP Penetrating attack at him TOO often, but every now and then stuff happens and someone who just can't take a hit catches Grond's haymaker.

 

Then what? As mentioned in the OP, some systems have fate/luck/hero points people can spend to fend off death. Without those, do you fudge the roll? Tweak the damage? What?

 

Roll with the Punch, as Alibear mentioned, is a combat maneuver that can allow the Batman types to survive in these situations. See the table on p.384, 5thER. If you don't mind optional rules, you can throw HERO points into the game. A search of the boards will turn up multiple systems, from XP as HERO Points to Luck Chits.

 

The Super Skills from Pulp Hero and Dark Champions are good for the normal among supers; add 6/6 Combat Luck, 50% Damage Reduction Improved Combat Luck, and a decent BOD score and one shot kills become pretty unlikely unless you as GM want the character dead.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Don't you find it hard on the beak?

 

A little . . . but it goes easily back into place.

[Kabluey]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

I have to agree with the above poster who said roll with it. As a GM, I don't worry about such issues. A char with a high DCV but low DEF has to be aware that at some point they may get hit by a big attack. In a recent campaign, I played a speedster with a high DCV and low DEF, and a good hit could put her out of a combat. Even a Move-Thru would at least stun her, and would definitely knock her out if the target had no knockback. (She had Passing Strike for most attacks, but Move-Thru gave her more damage - it was fun as a kind of last ditch maneuver.) I did everything I could to keep from getting hit, but when I did (and it was rare), I grabbed a book and read while everyone else finished the combat. So a player of such a character just has to be aware that it's going to happen from time to time.

[CourtFool]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I cheat. So my first response is fudge the numbers. "Grond connected, but just barely." You could also let the chips fall where they do and then let Grond stand over the fallen Knight and gloat. "Grond smash puny human." As your brick sneaks up behind Grond.

[sbarron]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

I would fudge the damage if needed to prevent an ignoble death. But if a long knockout was all that was coming, I'd roll the damage dice with gusto.

 

The detective and similar characters made design choices that make them weak in this particular situation. Brick designs are likely weak in certain areas, blasters in others, etc. I think that's the beauty of a nominally balanced character build system. In order to be good at something, you have to be less good at something else.

 

Personally, if I choose a character that can't take big damage, I always try to be very careful when the big guns start firing. And if I didn't happen to be able to abort to dodge when Dr. Impossible got me in his sights, shame on me. Maybe when I wake up, I'll design a little tougher nylon mesh costume.

[OddHat]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

 

(btw, for purposes of this question, we are assuming there are groups that don't build every character so they can take a tank shot point blank without flinching)

 

Also wanted to comment on this; there's a wide range between "Dies instantly when hit by an average attack" and "can take a tank shot point blank", especially in HERO. 12pd will keep a 12d6 attack from doing any body on average; killing attacks are more dangerous, but still predictable. If the average attack in your campaign is Xd6 normal, you should think seriously before allowing PCs with less than X PD.

 

Even taking body isn't the end of the game; it takes 2xBody past defenses to outright kill a character in HERO, and bleeding to death isn't that much of a risk unless the GM wants it to be. A Batman Homage with 12rPD and 15 Body (both on the low side for that type of character) would need to be hit with 42 Body of damage to be instantly splatted; if attacks likely to do that are being thrown around, Bat Homage Guy should have been built tougher.

 

If the OP is really asking how to do Luck/Fate/Hero points in Champions, there are plenty of ways. The easiest is to give every PC 6d6 Luck for free and have them roll at the start of every game session; the number of 1s they roll is the number of luck points they get that session, good for one re-roll per point. You can get much more detailed than that.

[bjvargas]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

"Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!"

 

This isn't Saturday yet. Please don't make my head hurt from thoughts of cartoons - I get enough of those on the weekend ;P LOL

 

BJ

[tesuji]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

My first instinct would be to do nothing.

 

the character was hit, the character takes the damage. Thats the fact of "life". Now of course the character could have damage reduction bought as super-dodge or could have levels and be able to roll with the punch but if the character build was acceptable to the campaign and he gets hit by an attack acceptable to the campaign... then he takes the effect.

 

the sole difference and exception i would have is for instant death in many genres, but thats very hard to do in supers.

 

Now, as Gm there are two "acceptables" up there which came down to me. Did i approve a PC that cannot survive well enough in combat to be playable and fun? if so, bad GM.

 

Did i then put into play an attack that makes that PC unplayable or not fun? if so, bad GM.

 

the Gm can still have both, allowing a puny mortal, but in doing so he should also recognize his responsibility to not make "who gets shot at by whom" a random thing but a scripted one, to fit the genre. batman doesn't get squished right off the bat by villains who "go for the quick kill first" when he runs with the JLA... so if i approve bats and supes in a JLA style comic game, i shouldn't violate that genre that severely by blasting bats right off the bat frequently.

'

[CourtFool]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

If the OP is really asking how to do Luck/Fate/Hero points in Champions' date=' there are plenty of ways.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I had wondered if this was a thinly veiled, "How do I do this in Hero?"

[JmOz]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Okay, well first lets take a closer look at the problem. Most batman types will have about 15 def I figure (About half coming from Foci or Combat reflexes), with probably a 15 body, allowing the character to take 3 average EB's of 20 dice before starting to bleed out, 3 more on top of that till death, so the body is probably not the problem, but the stun, ohh that stun that will probably KO him in one to two shots

 

So we need to mitigate the stun. Well high recovery can help, so can more speed (More recoveries), and of course more stun or defences.

 

Now we get into the house rules section

 

I have a house rule involving the luck power (I basicaly swiped it from Savage Worlds BTW)

 

At the start of the game you roll your dice of luck, and count the body, each body is the number of luck points you get

 

Each luck point can be used for the following things

*World modifing, this may take more than one luck point but lets you modify the scene to fit your needs, the GM decides on the spot howmany luck points it will cost to change what you want to change

Ex. You are being choked by ogre in a lab, you ask the GM if there is a beacker of acid you can use to throw at Ogre, he decides it costs 1 luck point for there to be one

 

*+2 Overall levels (lasts for one action, must be used before action is taken)

 

*Reroll, highest roll taken

 

*One free Recovery

 

*Stop Bleeding to death

 

*Breakout roll from mental effects

 

*Speed: Basicaly you get a single extra action, as if you had an action in that phase, goes by dex

 

*+3 Lightning reflexes (Must be used at top of phase)

 

*anything else you can talk the GM into, Bribes work well here =)

[OddHat]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Okay' date=' well first lets take a closer look at the problem. Most batman types will have about 15 def I figure (About half coming from Foci or Combat reflexes), with probably a 15 body, allowing the character to take 3 average EB's of 20 dice before starting to bleed out, 3 more on top of that till death, so the body is probably not the problem, but the stun, ohh that stun that will probably KO him in one to two shots[/quote']

 

Here I agree.

 

So we need to mitigate the stun. Well high recovery can help, so can more speed (More recoveries), and of course more stun or defences.

 

This bit is accurate, but I'd add a bit to it. As a GM I have to ask if I really want the Batman homage taking as much punishment as the Superman homage without getting knocked out. I don't want PCs killed unless I planned it that way (or the player has the character do something suicidal); Still, if the Martial Artist's DCV fails him, and he ends up taking a punch that would seriously hurt the Brick, I don't want the Martial Artist to casually shake it off. I'd probably prefer for him to be knocked out. After all, it's the Brick's schtick to take huge hits and keep going; the Martial Artist ought to be built to avoid them. On the days that he doesn't, within reasonable limits (again, I don't want him killed), he should suck it up. Let his player watch the rest of the combat and let the PC wake up and find out what happened later. That's the price of a point based system.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

This bit is accurate' date=' but I'd add a bit to it. As a GM I have to ask if I really want the Batman homage taking as much punishment as the Superman homage without getting knocked out. I don't want PCs killed unless I planned it that way (or the player has the character do something suicidal); Still, if the Martial Artist's DCV fails him, and he ends up taking a punch that would seriously hurt the Brick, I don't want the Martial Artist to casually shake it off. I'd probably prefer for him to be knocked out. After all, it's the Brick's schtick to take huge hits and keep going; the Martial Artist ought to be built to avoid them. On the days that he doesn't, within reasonable limits (again, I don't want him killed), he should suck it up. Let his player watch the rest of the combat and let the PC wake up and find out what happened later. That's the price of a point based system.[/quote']

 

This depends if we use Detective Comics Batman or Justice League Batman, of course.

 

Even if the Brick and the Martial Artist have the same PD/ED, the brick's schtick is still 'taking hits' because the MA has 40 STUN and the Brick has 80.

 

As far as not going squish ... well, frankly, 20d6 is 'Master Ultra Supervillain' level for me. As in 'one guy vs entire team' sorts of villains. A typical baddie has around a 12d6er. 15d6 for a real 'bruiser'. 20d6 is massive power for my games (and the hypothetical 20d6 AP Penetrating is generally not man-portable unless you ride a surfboard in space). 10PD/ED Armor plus base PD/ED (probably 20) means no squish ... though there will be pain involved.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

IMO, another important question is not:

 

How do you (the GM) keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

but:

 

How do you (the Dark Knight's teammate) keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

If the Cosmic Zapper is about to shoot the Cowled Detective, shouldn't his bestest buddy Stupendousman use his stupendous speed and resistance to take the hit?

 

Some things are the GM's fault, but some things are the players' fault. Teamwork tends to survive. Lack of teamwork doesn't.

 

OTOH, sometimes it's the individual player's responsibility:

 

GM: We're going to be playing in a game where the big bad guys, who you will meet face-to-face on a fairly regular basis, have 20 DC attacks.

 

Player: Here's my character - a detective with 8 rDEF and 15 total DEF, average DCV and no other defensive powers.

 

GM: Fine. You might want to start thinking about your next character now.

 

If you really need the squishy detective to live, you can always maintain him in GM-option land in critical condition (Stupendousman can at least fly him to the hospital, right?) for as long as the plot requires. Dead guys come back to life all the time. Someone reasonably well-versed in comic books ought to be able to name a half dozen off the top of his head, and not just highly super-powered ones like Superman, but "normal" ones, like Cap and Green Arrow.

[Comic]

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

In general, I don't put attacks into the campaign that will outright kill any PC in one shot, and I don't have PCs in the game who will outright die from one shot.

 

If it isn't instant death, and everyone's done everything by the rules.. then I go with what the dice say.