Go home, Superman!

[MilkmanDan]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Also, on a very simple level, cities are really, really big. Sure, in typical Marvel stories it's all happening in Manhattan, but the NYC metro area (per Wikipedia) is 6,720 square miles. Even Superdude can't cover that much area.

 

The heroes save the day and, just as they win, Superdude rushes up and says, "I was out in Queens and came as fast as I could. Good job!"

[wylodmayer]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Also, on a very simple level, cities are really, really big. Sure, in typical Marvel stories it's all happening in Manhattan, but the NYC metro area (per Wikipedia) is 6,720 square miles. Even Superdude can't cover that much area.

 

The heroes save the day and, just as they win, Superdude rushes up and says, "I was out in Queens and came as fast as I could. Good job!"

 

Actually, given most estimates of Superman's speed, he could get from just about any point in NYC metro to any other point in less than a minute (sometimes a lot less).

 

Still, the thread seems to have hit on the best idea for dealing with Superman in particular - there's other crap going on in the world, including (but not limited to) his life.

 

Superman feels it's important to keep up a normal life as well as be a superhero, for whatever reason. Call it selfishness, call it an enlightened understanding of his own psychological limits, etc. The fact of the matter is, however, that every minute he spends talking to Lois about lunch or typing a piece on domestic policy, there is something happening within his range of hearing. And he doesn't respond.

 

The only explanation for this is that he doesn't respond to everything. A plausible interpretation of his character is to stipulate that Superman has no desire to be a "fix" for every ill the world - or even Metropolis - has. He understands that the people of his city have to be able to deal with "normal life" on their own, and that "normal life" includes a certain amount of crime and violence. It was like that before he ever came along, and there are trained and professional individuals - police, firefighters, paramedics - who can and do manage such situations on a daily basis.

 

On the other hand, when a plane is out of control, or a tsunami is headed for the city, or [insert villain here] is going to mind control the whole world, well, that's a job for Superman.

 

Beyond that, he does not - except for during his designated patrol times - interrupt his other activities to respond to "normal" occurences. If something starts to sound serious, like a major event that may be spinning out of control of the local authorities, then he drops what he's doing and checks it out, but not before.

 

So you need to ask yourself, what would most of the stuff that the characters get into "sound like"? In a lot of cases, until the climactic fight, there probably wouldn't be anything that would catch Superman's attention.

 

However, I think the best solution is just to put the heroes in a different city, like maybe Gotham. Superman is supposed to overshadow other heroes. He's friggin' Superman.

 

In fact, you could turn it into a story arc. The characters get annoyed with Superman "poaching" their bad guys - he lectures them on how it's not about who gets credit. Keep it up until they get the idea that Big Blue has his hometown pretty much under wraps, and that there are plenty of other large cities in America which need protectors of their own. Then you can introduce whole new NPCs and even villains... including perhaps some old ones who left the Metropolis area to get away from Superman!!!

[McCoy]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

(I mean' date=' really, is Earth a kryptonite magnet?)[/quote']

In my campagine, it's Jor-L's fault. The experimental Warp drive on Kal-L's spaceship drew tons of the stuff to the Sol system in its slipstream.

 

And while kryptonite is not indestructable, it is pretty darn tough and a much higher percentage survives atmospheric reentry than common meteors of the same mass.

 

What does fall from the sky is quickly found, in addition to it being used against Superman and Supergirl it is prized as a power source. It can be used to make very efficent, yet compact, batteries, as a catalyst in some nuclear fision, and ocasionally triggers metahuman abilities. It also tends to be easy to find because of its unique radiation signature, and the fact that it is almost never buried.

 

So while not as common as Saturday Night Specials, it is no more difficult to get ahold of than say, gold bullion or industrial quanities of mercury.

[OddHat]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

My campaign doesn't use Kryptonite at all. Of course, my Superman vanished in the 1980s, and was never quite as powerful as his Silver Age publicity suggested. Three of his children are still around, but only two of them were ever publicly known adventurers and both are now in semi-retirement.

 

They could come into play if it would make a good story; so far, it hasn't.

[Great Beyond]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

I've not run into this problem with superheroing - no Supermen in my games, but I have run into it with my Star Wars game. The players have run with Anakin and Obi-Wan on several missions during the clone wars - and they might as well be Superman and/or Batman. So I simply set it up so it's a "Ok, this fight is too big for any one of us to take alone. You guys go this way and deal with threat A and we'll go this way and deal with threat B." thing. Both sides have the right skill set to deal with their portion of the problem, and both sides need the other to succeed overall.

 

Teamwork for the win!

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

It makes me sad that 'big bad and super good are the same guy' doesn't seem to be getting much love. Am I that far out there?

[Nucleon]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Nucleon is going to assume that these icons are way up in character points than the players. Everybody would want it that way.

 

Well, As Above, So Below.

 

What Nucleon means, is treat it the way it is treated in group titles, who often teams super powerhouses with street-savy beginners; make the action go on two plans.

 

Superman and Batman may well be on the invader's admiral ship far away in the macrocosm while your players take care of the single cruiser that got here. Or they may have Superman taking of a ridiculously vast army of automatons (with which actual battle would be more tedious than difficult) while the players take the ball towards the ennemy zone. Or have Batman work out the intricacies of a local event that happen to have international ramifications.

 

In other words, keep the real action to the players, while the big NPCs work on the meta action. That doen't mean you should have the big two have all the credits, mainly to exacerbate the PCs... That's the prize of growing in the shadow.

 

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Anyone out there working in Western Canada these days?

Superman is there, of course. The problem is that he's a Boomer, pushing 50 and juggling his career as publisher with family responsibilities. Let's face it, at that age you need your 8 hours and you have to spin by Metropolis U at least daily to keep the boy on the straight and narrow. Inheriting half-Kryptonian powers doesn't somehow make you hand in your calculus homework on time.

Too bad that the Giant Clams from Saturn and Saberhagenhomagetron don't follow current job market demographics. They're out to destroy Metropolis 24/7.

The answer? Hire someone! You can probably afford a few disgruntled and cynical Gen Xers ("Hey, I have a PhD, why am working entry level? Ooh, right, big pay cheque") to leaven a team of over-employed Echo babies. ("Are 17 year-olds normally put in charge of the Justice Satellite? You know I have to be at home at 11, right? It's a school night.")

Only this incredibly green, somewhat overscheduled team stand between freedom and apocalypse. At least when the Big Blue Cheese is doing his six weeks at the lake in the summer.

And, hey, August he's taking the family on a Grand Tour of the Galaxy circa 6 million years ago to get in touch with their heritage. Overtime for everyone!

[MilkmanDan]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Actually' date=' given most estimates of Superman's speed, he could get from just about any point in NYC metro to any other point in less than a minute (sometimes a [i']lot[/i] less).

 

Still, the thread seems to have hit on the best idea for dealing with Superman in particular - there's other crap going on in the world, including (but not limited to) his life.

 

Superman feels it's important to keep up a normal life as well as be a superhero, for whatever reason. Call it selfishness, call it an enlightened understanding of his own psychological limits, etc. The fact of the matter is, however, that every minute he spends talking to Lois about lunch or typing a piece on domestic policy, there is something happening within his range of hearing. And he doesn't respond.

 

The only explanation for this is that he doesn't respond to everything. A plausible interpretation of his character is to stipulate that Superman has no desire to be a "fix" for every ill the world - or even Metropolis - has. He understands that the people of his city have to be able to deal with "normal life" on their own, and that "normal life" includes a certain amount of crime and violence. It was like that before he ever came along, and there are trained and professional individuals - police, firefighters, paramedics - who can and do manage such situations on a daily basis.

 

On the other hand, when a plane is out of control, or a tsunami is headed for the city, or [insert villain here] is going to mind control the whole world, well, that's a job for Superman.

 

Beyond that, he does not - except for during his designated patrol times - interrupt his other activities to respond to "normal" occurences. If something starts to sound serious, like a major event that may be spinning out of control of the local authorities, then he drops what he's doing and checks it out, but not before.

 

So you need to ask yourself, what would most of the stuff that the characters get into "sound like"? In a lot of cases, until the climactic fight, there probably wouldn't be anything that would catch Superman's attention.

 

However, I think the best solution is just to put the heroes in a different city, like maybe Gotham. Superman is supposed to overshadow other heroes. He's friggin' Superman.

 

In fact, you could turn it into a story arc. The characters get annoyed with Superman "poaching" their bad guys - he lectures them on how it's not about who gets credit. Keep it up until they get the idea that Big Blue has his hometown pretty much under wraps, and that there are plenty of other large cities in America which need protectors of their own. Then you can introduce whole new NPCs and even villains... including perhaps some old ones who left the Metropolis area to get away from Superman!!!

 

Yes, he could get there, but he's busy saving kittens from trees, stopping bank robbers, and giving speeches at the United Nations. He has lots of responsibilities, and even if he can physically get from point A to point B in time, he's got a lot to do and he can't always be there.

[Thaingar]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

I liked all the suggestions (even Supergood and Superbad are one and the same! in, fact, I used that one in a campaign once. The PCs were actually glad to get to take him down cause he was a pompous jerk. Even his name was arrogant ... Superion.) But I also like where he becomes a friend and mentor ... and where he then gets killed. I think my favorite suggestion, though, was have him show up to help. He fights the giant, unstoppable robot (or whatever) while the main heroes take on the master villain. Just mix it up. Have him help out sometimes (he doesn't have to upstage the heroes if there is something for them to do that's just as / more important), have him out of town sometimes, have him disappear for a while, have him captured ... or just kill him. All good ideas.

[Richard Logue]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

All great ideas! I have rep'd a few of you who really got me thinking about the situation. I appreciate it. One of you stated that it would be easier in Gotham than in Metropolis. And that's interesting because the campaign city as been described as being my world's Gotham (but with more of a mystical element adding to the creepy gloom.) And the uberhero I'm concerned about is very Batmanny.

 

So after reading your ideas and advice, I'm tending toward the Batmannyuberhero understanding his role in the city and the PC group's role in the city. He haunts the underworld and goes after the organized crime, "street-level" crime, and the occasional masked maniac serial killer. that's his demesne. He knows that.

 

When flashy supercrooks and city-conquerers make their appearance, he leaves that up to the PCs to take care. That's *their* lot. Of course, he covertly watches over them from the shadows and makes sure they aren't threats themselves and such, but he knows everyones' roles and he won't unnecessarily step on anyone's toes.

 

In the meantime, nothing happens in "his city" without him knowing about it. (Or, at least, its a nice fantasy to have.) Perhaps, he is pulling extra duty as one of the PC's contacts, feeding them good info, without butting into their role.

 

Making him a villain posing as a good guy is a neat idea, but not for this hero or this campaign. But its in my list of fun plots for future use. Thanks.

 

Killing the uberhero to allow the PCs to step up in the city is also a fun idea, but it doesn't work with this particular NPC. I have other plans for him, and his future death has already been written.

 

Good ideas, everyone!

 

Richard

[Zeropoint]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

The Aqualich rises out of the waters of Metropolis Bay with his henchman at his side. "You may have defeated my zombies last time, Hero Team, but even your combined powers have no chance of defeating the MegaAquaZombie! Ah ha ha ha ha!"

 

A vast construct of dead sea life, coruscating with arcane power looms up, and up, and UP out of the water, easily two hundred feet tall. The PCs look at this thing and despair. Only Superman could possibly take this thing!

 

A blue and red blur carries the MegaAquaZombie out to sea.

 

"Yeah, that figures," says the Aqualich. "Oh well. Henchpersons, ATTACK!"

 

The PCs go on to have a dramatic and exciting battle, with lots of great photo-ops and neat video footage, that will have them on the news for a week.

 

After things are starting to cool down, a somewhat battered-looking Superman flies over.

 

"Well, I'm certainly glad that you were here to handle the Aqualich--that zombie thing was a lot tougher than I expected. Well, I'm off to get a shower. Keep up the good work!"

[assault]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

After things are starting to cool down, a somewhat battered-looking Superman flies over.

 

"Well, I'm certainly glad that you were here to handle the Aqualich--that zombie thing was a lot tougher than I expected. Well, I'm off to get a shower. Keep up the good work!"

 

What do you expect? This was obviously a job for Aquaman, not Superman. Sheesh.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Aquaman was on his way, but waterskiing on a pair of dolphins puts a limit on your speed.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

It makes me sad that 'big bad and super good are the same guy' doesn't seem to be getting much love. Am I that far out there?

 

Actually, yes. If the hero is being analogized with Superman, than having him secretly be a villain horribly undercuts the entire theme of superheroics.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Aquaman was on his way' date=' but waterskiing on a pair of dolphins puts a limit on your speed.[/quote']

 

Yeah, somewhere in the supersonic range.

 

Ah, Aquaman, he gets no respect. . .

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

What do you expect? This was obviously a job for Aquaman' date=' not Superman. Sheesh. [/quote']

 

 

'Look! Down in the water! It's a fish!'

'It's a sub!'

'It's Aquaman!'

 

'Oh, wait. It's just a Gatorade bottle.'

[McManus]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

It makes me sad that 'big bad and super good are the same guy' doesn't seem to be getting much love. Am I that far out there?

 

It doesn't fit if you are using the actual iconic characters. Other than that it is pretty interesting. I think they used it for the new Marvel powerhouse Sentry. But I didn't read it.

[OddHat]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Poor Aquaman.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

...the uberhero I'm concerned about is very Batmanny....In the meantime' date=' nothing happens in "his city" without him knowing about it. (Or, at least, its a nice fantasy to have.)[/quote']

 

Well, a supernormal "uber" hero (or at least, close to supernormal) is a fish with a different bicycle. Superman "threatens" heroes' autonomy because he can detect almost any disturbance in his city and get there in a nonce.

 

Batman and his various local equivalents are different. That "nothing happens in my city without my knowing about it" is just what you said, a fantasy. It's bull. Batman is a detective with solid contacts who patrols - he is only likely to know about certain kinds of things. If the heroes have anyone with supersenses, it's entirely possible that they've run across plots Batman never did, or would. Plus, the guy isn't Superman - if a big bad shows up to tear apart downtown, Batman cannot be there a minute later if he was out at the mansion say, I dunno, sleeping because he patrols all night. Wake up, grab gear, get to the cave, drive at insane speeds out there... most Champs combats will be over long before he can do all of these things.

 

A Batmanny superhero may wish he was an omniscient overlord, but he isn't and can't be. Getting the PCs involved in stuff that he isn't involved in and/or doesn't know about shouldn't be hard at all, and doesn't require him intentionally leaving it for them to do. Even if we're talking about things in "his realm," street crime and so forth, he's mortal. He has limits. There may be plots and cons and so forth that he just hasn't stumbled across yet. Not in the right place at the right time.

 

Personally, I loathe the way Batman is written by most comics writers. "Uber" hero my butt. He's good, sure, but he's not superhuman. The stuff with him being able to take out the whole Justice League in a straight-up fight and crap like that has just gotten out of hand. It fails the "bulls**t!" test. Contingency plans, maybe; able to snipe them off in ambushes, maybe (yeah, ambush the super-warrior princess who's been training ten times longer than Bats has been alive; ambush the guy with every Super-Sense in the book - sure thing, Bats). But fighting them? He needs to keep his dumb little bat-eared head down and pray the godlike beings don't squoosh him.

 

If your Batman-equivalent is smart, he'll thank whatever gods he believes in that the PCs exist to save his pampered rich-boy butt from alien invasions and giant world-eaters and whatever else the PCs fight that he's totally unqualified to handle.

[Richard Logue]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Perspective. Thank you very much, wylodmayer. I would rep you if I hadn't already repped you for another bit of wisdom. I'll owe ya.

 

Richard

[assault]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

If your Batman-equivalent is smart' date=' he'll thank whatever gods he believes in that the PCs exist to save his pampered rich-boy butt from alien invasions and giant world-eaters and whatever else the PCs fight that he's [i']totally unqualified to handle[/i].

 

 

I suggest you never read the Challengers of the Unknown then. They're even less "qualified" than Batman.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

I like CotU. When they take on Big Bads, it's usually - at least it was back in the day - in a fairly plausible fashion. No one ever talked them up by claiming they could take Superman in a straight-up fight.

 

Apples and oranges.

 

To underscore my original point, though, look at the write-ups for the Dark Champs character Harbinger of Justice. That's probably what a Batman should look like - obscene point levels, but all for skills and contacts and HQ and stuff. He doesn't have defenses out the wazoo, and - realistically - shouldn't. HoJ is a crazy powerful character, and I know some people have called him a munchkin character, but the fact of the matter is, he's still "street level" in terms of power orientation, and he'd be flattened by, say, Dr. Destroyer. Not a dag-gummed thing he could do about the Doc, to the Doc, or to stop the Doc from killing him, except maybe not tangling with him in the first place.

 

That's not to say that there aren't Batman-type super-normal write-ups that try to make the skilled norm hang with the superheroes in combat, taking Dex-roll dependant Damage Reduction and constructing faux Martial Attacks that do 16d6 damage and such like. That's all well and good, but - stepping away from what you can do in a game like HERO and getting back to what is plausible and internally consistent in the world where Batman et al are said to exist - I think an HoJ-style situation is what you'd be looking at. Batman is awesomely good at what he does, but, really, let's say some Galactus kinda thing drops in for a chat and to, you know, eat the Earth. Batman should be watching it on TV and praying the folks with cosmic powers keep him from getting fried. It's just not in his weight class.

 

I actually prefer to do things this way with the skilled norms in my games. Rather than spend a ton of points building up highly implausible levels of "martial arts" attacks (with DCs that can shatter light armor... shya), I give them street-level offense and defense and dump the rest on skills and stuff. This highlights the differences in what such characters are capable of and what they do, as compared to "normal" superheroes like FEPs and such like. It gives them a really different feel, and actual different areas of competence.

 

In any case, even if we take Batman on his own terms (or rather, as some writers choose to offer him to us), there are still superhumans out there who could school him every time. Namely, Wonder Woman. As noted in the last post, she has (under at least some of her many, many backstories) been training for longer than he's been alive with much better teachers than even he had. And she's stronger, faster, and tougher. Not to mention just as sneaky and ruthless.

 

However, the very actually last thing I want to do is wind up in an "x could beat y" debate. I merely wanted to point out that, realistically considered, Batman would not be able to take on certain kinds of challenges, and some that he theoretically could take on would require so much trouble and expense that only a raging narcissist would fail to realize that these things are better left to people with actual superpowers.

[assault]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

I merely wanted to point out that' date=' realistically considered, Batman would [i']not[/i] be able to take on certain kinds of challenges, and some that he theoretically could take on would require so much trouble and expense that only a raging narcissist would fail to realize that these things are better left to people with actual superpowers.

 

Except that "actual superpowers" are things like the ability to shrink, to fly, or to talk to fish.

 

Batman can fly at supersonic speeds, destroy tanks, and probably even carry a nuke. It's called the Batplane. Surprisingly enough, it got used a lot in the early days of the JLA.

 

It's been pointed out many times before, but Batman is actually well and truly in the mid-range of the JLA's power levels.

 

EDIT: I would express my appreciation to all the bad guys for the decent and sporting manner in which they refrain from attacking opponents who they outclass...

[sbarron]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

In the meantime' date=' nothing happens in "his city" without him knowing about it. (Or, at least, its a nice fantasy to have.) Perhaps, he is pulling extra duty as one of the PC's contacts, feeding them good info, without butting into their role.[/quote']I think knowledge of the crime could be key, depending on how you play Champions. Even Batman has contacts that feed him info. The Heroes could be those contacts or not. Maybe they don't tell him about it. Also, generally I don't have my Heroes responding to the villian's TV announcement that he's set up his doomsday device on top of City Hall. That's fun if you just want to battle, but I like creating a story.

 

Instead, my PCs might respond to an attempted hijacking of an military arms shipment. They either stop it or don't, but find the perps to be regular, though well organized, thugs. Maybe an out-of-town street gang that got hired for the job. They don't know who hired them, though it was cash up front.

 

Next day, the Heroes learn that another arms shipment was stolen at the same time, only in the neighboring city. They investigate. Through some clues, the Heroes are led to someplace else, where they learn of other seemingly unrelated crimes with similar MOs.

 

At this point the team gets ambushed by a couple low level villian supers with some normal muscle along. After the beat down, they don't get anything out of the baddies but some vague threats about "you'll be paying for this big time, and soon."

 

I keep it going like this until the Heroes figure out who the big bad is, and what his plans are. Of course, they only learn just in time to rush over to city hall and try to stop the doomsday device from being detonated. In this way, the Heroes are the only ones to have put together the plot, and the only ones with the info on how to stop it. (They know the devices timer was stolen from iRad Corp., and from their discussions with the designer they know how to disarm it. Or maybe they learned that the explosives won't detonate under water. Something always comes to mind... )

 

If the Heroes want to bring in the heavies at any point during the story, they can try to contact them. But if they don't want to, then there is no reason the heavies even know about this plot. Presumably, they are working on stopping other plots. Or taking a vacation. Or are on patrol. Or whatever. But it's up the Heroes whether they want the help or not. And the heavies can show up after the villians are in cuffs and the timer has been disarmed to praise the Heroes for a job well done. "How did you guys get here so fast? I only heard about this villian on the TV 3 minutes ago! And how did you disable that timer? It's a iRad Xtreme, atomic powered, with 80 billion possible combinations!"