Go home, Superman!

[wylodmayer]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Batman can fly at supersonic speeds, destroy tanks, and probably even carry a nuke. It's called the Batplane. Surprisingly enough, it got used a lot in the early days of the JLA.

 

This does miss my point, which was about the fragility of the human body versus the lethality of punches from a guy who can stop bullet trains with a stiff arm. If Bats wants to fly his widdle plane against whatever cosmic worldbeater is currently kicking Superman around the block, let him. Giant Space World Eater Guy will spare 0.02 seconds to incinerate it with a cosmic blast - and him along with it - and go back to beating on Superman, who is tough enough to actually trade punches with the guy.

 

It's been pointed out many times before, but Batman is actually well and truly in the mid-range of the JLA's power levels.

 

Just because some braindead fanboy in his mother's basement has said it doesn't make it true.

 

EDIT: I would express my appreciation to all the bad guys for the decent and sporting manner in which they refrain from attacking opponents who they outclass...

 

You say sarcastically what I believe wholeheartedly. The writers constantly hand Batman a free pass. One of the reasons I don't read his book or, for that matter, most other comics. I wanna see Batman b**ch and moan about how the Justice Leaguers don't train enough, and then come up against someone fast enough and strong enough to give Superman pause and watch him wind up in traction one panel later. He's only human. His reflexes have an upper limit, and people like the Flash, Superman and other superfast nutjobs can form full reactions in the time it takes his hands to realize what his brain is planning. I want to see him try to pull something on a bad guy of Superman's power level and watch the guy shatter every bone in his torso with a glancing blow (which is a generous interpretation of what would happen if you got hit by a guy who can lift the Golden Gate Bridge).

 

Bats needs to go back to Gotham and stick to playing footsie with the Joker.

[MrBunraku]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

I've always thought that the best use of Batman in the JLA is as the information guy. He probably can't stand up to the uber-villains, but he's the one of the group who can help coordinate attacks, knows the villains main weaknesses, what tactics they are likey to use, and help the "super" heroes like Superman, GL, or Flash best use their abilties on the bad guy.

 

That being said, I have to agree with others that think Batman is WAY overpowered in the comics. Even though he has the Kryptonite ring Superman gave him, if Superman really turned evil, wouldn't he go and fry Batman with his heat vision first?

 

Ed

...at least that's what I'd do if I were an evil Superman.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

if Superman really turned evil, wouldn't he go and fry Batman with his heat vision first?

 

Ed

...at least that's what I'd do if I were an evil Superman.

 

Man, that's not even in his top 10 things to do when he stops pretending to be good.........

 

http://www.superdickery.com/dick/73.html

 

This whole thread underscores one of the main reason I dislike running campaigns with lots of NPC heroes; sometimes the PC's call for help, and there's absolutely no reason they shouldn't get it. And then the focus changes to the NPC's and you've got to figure out what the players can contribute to a scenario that others are clearly better able to handle.

 

I really don't want to run scenarios where 2 of my npc's are talking and/or fighting. I can do that without wasting other people's time.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

That being said, I have to agree with others that think Batman is WAY overpowered in the comics. Even though he has the Kryptonite ring Superman gave him, if Superman really turned evil, wouldn't he go and fry Batman with his heat vision first?

 

Of course Batman is way overpowered when compaired to the rest of the Justice League! His titles sell better.

 

And a popular character will triumph over an otherwise more powerful character any day.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

And a popular character will triumph over an otherwise more powerful character any day.

 

 

 

That explains about 80% of my beatings............

[assault]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Bats needs to go back to Gotham and stick to playing footsie with the Joker.

 

As should Aquaman, Green Arrow, the Atom, Hawkman and Black Canary, presumably.

 

Oh wait. That's half the JLA's membership... at least in their classic period.

 

I may just be a "braindead fanboy in (my) mother's basement", but Batman compares pretty favourably with this lot.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

As far as a game goes, let them call on the superguy if they want. I assume the characters don't normally want to do that - they want to be heroes in their own right, right?

 

Superguy'll happily interrupt his current heroic activities and save their bacon, get the bad guy, etc. The players gain nothing for the adventure & maybe even lose 1cp. That ought to motivate them to help Superguy clean up the city instead of use him as a crutch.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

As far as a game goes, let them call on the superguy if they want. I assume the characters don't normally want to do that - they want to be heroes in their own right, right?

 

Superguy'll happily interrupt his current heroic activities and save their bacon, get the bad guy, etc. The players gain nothing for the adventure & maybe even lose 1cp. That ought to motivate them to help Superguy clean up the city instead of use him as a crutch.

 

Is it good role playing? My character has, for example, Protective of Innocents. Should he try to take on a powerful. dangerous force alone, or call in all the help he can reasonably lay his hands on in order to maximize the likelihood that the threat is defeated, and innocent people are not harmed?

 

Sure, the gloryhound may want to go in alone, and not have to share his good press (assuming he succeeds) with SuperGuy, but to my mind, a "real hero" isn't in it for the glory.

[Midas]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

However, the very actually last thing I want to do is wind up in an "x could beat y" debate. I merely wanted to point out that, realistically considered, Batman would not be able to take on certain kinds of challenges, and some that he theoretically could take on would require so much trouble and expense that only a raging narcissist would fail to realize that these things are better left to people with actual superpowers.

 

Yep, we're talking about Batsy alright.

 

Just a guess, but I bet you don't buy the "Bats could beat Supes" arguement, am I right?

 

(It's on the net some where, JFG it). More to the point, a character with the NCM DV really has a insane number of 10 point levels, or if you aren't into point shaving, insane plusses on KS: Criminal Behavior, KS: MO's and shticks of known villains, Find Weakness, research skills, and the kicker, an ultra high roll on his gadget pool.

 

If Galactus made an interuniversal jaunt and showed up in the DC solar system, the first thing Bats would do is find out what the Big Purple Guy wanted. Oh, that is a problem. Secondly, he would try to get Supes, GL, Martian Manhunter or anyone else more qualified to do handle this kind of thing. Stipulating that Batsy is the only one available (everybody else is "doing something" per previous posts), he wouldn't bother with trying to shoot Galactus with the Bat plane (Digression: During Secret Wars, Captain America threw his shield at The Beyonder. I'm hard put to think of anything quite as much of a waste of time as that ). Galactus vs the Batplane would be like Cap trying to knock out The Beyonder by throwing his shield at him, or something. What Batsy would do, is research. He would try to find out what would be indigestable to Galactus, and find a way to convince Big G that what he is looking at is not edible. Now *how* he would convince Galactus that he has found another planet full of Dire Wraithes, I leave to more imaginative minds than I.

 

Re the topic of the thread: If your Dark Knight archetype doesn't have the "My Turf" DV, any of the above suggestions would work. Bats does, I think have this DV, which is why you seldom hear of Supes or anybody else shutting down The Joker, Catwoman, etc. Bruce gets bent out of shape when someone picks on one of his personal sparring partners. Would your characters consider a hunted/rivalry campaign? This way, the characters would spend a lot of their own roleplaying efforts keeping DKA in the dark.

 

Another possibility is the Batman Beyond scenario. Bruce is old, tired, and physically broken, though nobody outside of his own circle know that. The character that is talented enough to crack his SI gets first place in the nomination to become the new Dark Knight archetype.

 

An idea that happened in an *old* campaign (the character predates Darkwing Duck/Negaduck), is that a villain that is functionally identical to the hero (or super NPC in this case) finally manages to copy the sthicks of the hero enough to impersonate him. No one except the PC knew of this Evil Twin, so when crimes were committed by someone who was obviously the hero and no one else, he had to go deep undercover. Because seriously, who would believe the Evil Twin defense? Really blew a hole in his merchandising, too. So something to consider: Negabats commits crimes around the city, and DKA disappears. What would the characters do?

 

Midas

[wylodmayer]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Now see, I can get behind that approach for having Bats deal with cosmic threats. And no, I most emphatically do not buy the "Batman could beat Superman" argument.

 

Nice ideas, though, all of 'em. Of course, see my previous posts for why I think Superman would usually leave super-normal criminals (like Joker et al) alone.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Interesting thread. Lots of good ideas in it, and I definitely like the creative way folks talk about incorporating mega-powered superheroes into campaigns with somewhat less potent PCs.

[assault]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Of course' date=' see my previous posts for why I think Superman would usually leave super-normal criminals (like Joker et al) alone.[/quote']

 

I'm sure Luthor, the Prankster, the Toyman, and most of his other regular opponents would appreciate that.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

I'm sure Luthor' date=' the Prankster, the Toyman, and most of his other regular opponents would appreciate that.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that does kind of kink up my theory, doesn't it? Ah, well, why should I let facts get in my way? Seriously, though, I stand by my general comments, but I will amend them to allow that there are supernormal criminals who are enough of a threat that it would be impractical to leave them to "regular" law enforcement, and so, if he's around, he'd see a good reason to take care of them as well.

[OddHat]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Yeah' date=' that does kind of kink up my theory, doesn't it? Ah, well, why should I let facts get in my way? Seriously, though, I stand by my [i']general[/i] comments, but I will amend them to allow that there are supernormal criminals who are enough of a threat that it would be impractical to leave them to "regular" law enforcement, and so, if he's around, he'd see a good reason to take care of them as well.

 

There's a disconnect between many character's power levels as depicted in his high end appearances and the foes they actually end up fighting, especially in the Silver Age. Spider Man barely holds his own against middle aged and old men with sad gadgets (or no gadgets in the case of some Kingpin fights); Flash can't deal with idiots in silly costumes waving big, clumsy guns; and Superman spends a lot of time in the Silver and Bronze age dealing with people who shouldn't even be able to face a pissed off cop with a pistol. That's the genre for you.

 

In my own setting, jails don't have a revolving door and criminals understand that to use deadly force ends the gentleman's agreement with Superheroes to avoid using the same, but then I don't go for a pure genre simulation.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Go home, Superman!

 

Sounds more like what I used to do - the players kept a big list of all the criminals they knew to be in the "superprison" and there was much celebration and shouting when a new one got sent away, because they knew that meant he was effectively - barring unusual in-game circumstance - out of the campaign for a while. Gave them a sense of accomplishment.

 

I didn't give away the store, though; I stipulated that a court ruling had established that "normals," no matter how skilled, could not be legally committed to a "superprison," although they could go to supermaxes as exist nowdays, for instance. This allowed me to "bail out" certain superskilled baddies from time to time without stretching realism too much. However, it also threatened to induce the PCs to the use of deadly force against them, too, so I kept a careful lid on that tactic.