The artwork drives me nuts

[archermoo]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Sure, I'll weigh in again. There is very little about a book that I care less about than the cover art. One of only things I can think of is the internal art. I'd be perfectly happy if Hero never put another peice of art in any of their books, though I realize I'm in the minority on this one. And heck, my best friend is an artist that worked in the RPG field for years.

 

Personally, one of the things, other than the system itself, that I love about Hero books is their layout. Clean, consistant, well presented, and very easy to read. I am personally very glad they haven't gone some gimmicky route. For the Champions stuff, I'm looking for rules about Comic Book Roleplaying. I'm not looking for a comic book.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Seriously. There's just something about art direction in the RPG business... I don't know if people take the right approach to it. Do other businesses which need graphics have this kind of problem? To this degree? If it's just us (i.e., the RPG biz), then maybe there's an industry-wide misconception about how this sort of thing needs to be handled... I dunno.

 

One thing I will ask, though, and not be a "school snob," but have RPG companies tried dealing mainly with people who have, say, art degrees? The quality of the art may not be any better than the amateurs, but at least you know those folks understand the concept of a "deadline" - they'd have had to, to get through school. That is, after all, the purpose of looking for a degree on someone's resume - it's not the quality of the work, which can be judged in other ways, but knowing that this person can deal with a modicum of bureaucracy and arbitrary guidelines on his work. I mean, don't get me wrong, I know a lot of my favorite game artists aren't grads of any art school, but if meeting deadlines is a paramount consideration... well, just a thought.

Well...

 

As a professional Art Director I have to wade in on the side of the RPG companies... They can't afford us.

 

As a professional Senior Designer I applied to work at FASA in Chicago. Unfortunately, my salary requirements were beyond even the current Director's salary. I protested that working in the gaming industry was my greatest wish, worth a significant drop in my requirements... Even after dropping $15,000 annual was still asking for 35% more than the Art Director made. Of course (FASA) wanted me, but once my salary requirements hit the table we ended up in a coffee shop having a good laugh. I was given a free copy of the last Shadowrun hardback and was (cordially) shown the door.

 

(Days later two other companies - Learning Curve INT. Toy Company and Superior Coffee... Neither giants in the industry... offered me my asking price without batting an eyelash. Obviously, I took the job at the toy company )

 

RPG companies are fighting tight margins. Their employees are either contracted professionals that often cost a great deal or full-timers forced to wear many hats just to get their products out the door.

 

This is a profession of passion, rarely profit. Cuts have to be made so the core employees can live and the game production continue. First to go are Marketing and Artwork. Successful businesses will attest that this practice is a mistake, but it's the easiest to justify in the short run.

 

They're usually doing the best they can. Hero is lucky to have a great game (if not great design and art) to keep their base happy. Many other companies aren't so lucky.

[wylodmayer]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Wow, I had no idea it was so tight out there! Well, I still maintain that no art is better than bad art, but your post does give me some much-needed insight into the state of things in the gaming industry vis-a-vis artists.

 

And it gives me hope that I might be good enough to work for the breadcrumbs that are on offer.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I think the clearest example why spending too much on art is a bad idea is GOO. If their product wasn't so fricking expensive to produce then thy might have been able to survive the currency fluxuations that they claim did them in.

 

Have we seen any other businesses go belly up solely due to the depreciation of the dollar? No, it's due to other things.

 

I picked up a bunch of Goo product at the last GenCon, at $5 a book or less. The art was phenomenal, but that doesn't matter, the company is defunct. DoJ is still here.

 

It's still here because DoJ doesn't waste what money it has to work with on unnecessary costs like art, it focuses on producing books.

 

TB

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Well, GOO also sank a lot of money into licensed properties. Steve Long and Darren Watts have said they avoid picking up licenses for HERO partly because of the expense.

[Greywind]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Doesn't Steve have a bit of experience having licenses pulled out from under some of his past projects?

[GoldenAge]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I think the clearest example why spending too much on art is a bad idea is GOO. If their product wasn't so fricking expensive to produce then thy might have been able to survive the currency fluxuations that they claim did them in.

 

Have we seen any other businesses go belly up solely due to the depreciation of the dollar? No, it's due to other things.

 

I picked up a bunch of Goo product at the last GenCon, at $5 a book or less. The art was phenomenal, but that doesn't matter, the company is defunct. DoJ is still here.

 

It's still here because DoJ doesn't waste what money it has to work with on unnecessary costs like art, it focuses on producing books.

 

TB

Unless you have access to their books and can absolutely account for their art budget being the cause of their demise I'd suggest that you consider other grounds.

 

Perhaps they had loans and other overhead (offices, supplies, printing, distribution, etc.) that flagging sales couldn’t cover. Maybe the art WAS too expensive, but not because of its price but, rather, due to faulty sales projections that overestimated the correct amounts that could be spent on commissions.

 

Regardless of Goo…

 

I, and most in my profession, are aware that a successful product incorporates a delicate balance of great product and professional promotion (which includes art). It’s an interesting dance played between corporate divisions as we each scramble for budget dollars to enhance our individual arenas. Unfortunately for the art side of the equation we aren’t directly tied to revenue and almost always take a back seat to the more quantifiable entities.

[MitchellS]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I think the clearest example why spending too much on art is a bad idea is GOO. If their product wasn't so fricking expensive to produce then thy might have been able to survive the currency fluxuations that they claim did them in.

 

Have we seen any other businesses go belly up solely due to the depreciation of the dollar? No, it's due to other things.

This is the type of statement that tells me people really have no idea what they're talking about. Just as a point of reference between Jan of 2002 and Jan of 2006 1 US dollar went from $1.62 Canadian to $1.14 Canadian [The current rate is $1.04 Canadian]. If GoO's profit on a $30.00 book were $5.00 in 2002 that equated to $8.10 Canadian. By 2006 their profits when from $8.10 to $5.70 [that's nearly a 30% drop in profit].

 

GoO's problem was not the cost of their art or their production values. GoO's problem was that the owners were unable to raise the cost of the books fast enough to compensate for the monthly drops. 10,000 units in sale lost them thousands of dollars from what they expected to make [and Mark has said many times that their sales were on the increase]. Compound that over several books of various prices [under the mistaken assumption that the dollar would stabilize] and you can see how easy it was for GoO to wipe out their operating cash in that period of time.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

 

As for the artist flake - this seems most likely the dead truth. We lost the Tuala Morn cover because the artist couldn't deliver the promise of artwork.

 

 

Really? That stinks.

 

On a side note, I know of several LiveJournals where artists get together to complain about bonehead or dishonest commissioners (Artists_Beware seems to be most famous). I wonder if they know what the customers think of their untrustworthiness?

[GoldenAge]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Wow, I had no idea it was so tight out there! Well, I still maintain that no art is better than bad art, but your post does give me some much-needed insight into the state of things in the gaming industry vis-a-vis artists.

 

And it gives me hope that I might be good enough to work for the breadcrumbs that are on offer.

There's always room for good art!

 

Look to your future... The national average of compensation (according to Salary.Com) for an Art Director (not including bonuses and benefits) rests right around $100,000.00 per year (topping out around 150,000.00+/yr.)

[Enforcer84]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Sure, I'll weigh in again. There is very little about a book that I care less about than the cover art. One of only things I can think of is the internal art. I'd be perfectly happy if Hero never put another peice of art in any of their books, though I realize I'm in the minority on this one. And heck, my best friend is an artist that worked in the RPG field for years.

 

Personally, one of the things, other than the system itself, that I love about Hero books is their layout. Clean, consistant, well presented, and very easy to read. I am personally very glad they haven't gone some gimmicky route. For the Champions stuff, I'm looking for rules about Comic Book Roleplaying. I'm not looking for a comic book.

I hate you and the bands that you like!

[wylodmayer]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

There's always room for good art!

 

Enh. I do mediocre at, on my best day, and I don't even know how to ink or any of that fancy stuff.

 

Look to your future... The national average of compensation (according to Salary.Com) for an Art Director (not including bonuses and benefits) rests right around $100,000.00 per year (topping out around 150,000.00+/yr.)

 

Thanks for the tip, but I doubt degrees in English and Philosophy will qualify me for that job. Besides, in my chosen career field, once I finish the qualifying degrees, I'll work about 30 hours a week, nine months a year, for an entry level salary that averages around 50k, and after six years, I've got a job for life.

 

And people ask me why I'm putting in all the work for the PhD... pshaw. C'mon, y'all.

[Markdoc]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

This is the type of statement that tells me people really have no idea what they're talking about. Just as a point of reference between Jan of 2002 and Jan of 2006 1 US dollar went from $1.62 Canadian to $1.14 Canadian [The current rate is $1.04 Canadian]. If GoO's profit on a $30.00 book were $5.00 in 2002 that equated to $8.10 Canadian. By 2006 their profits when from $8.10 to $5.70 [that's nearly a 30% drop in profit].

 

You're forgetting inflation - over those 4 years it was 10.7%: meaning they faced a revenue decline of nearly 30% in the face of costs that escalated more than 10%. Given the fact that they were almost certainly paying a substantial chunk of licencing and publishing fees up front, the hit to cash flow was probably well over 40%. It's no wonder they went belly-up.

 

And contrary to TB's assertions, GoO isn't the only Canadian gaming company to to do the bankruptcy bellyflop: Hip Interactive which had licences for Call of Cthulhu and George Romero's zombie flicks went down a year or so ago and they blamed currency fluctuations too. A number of indy houses have also faded from sight.

 

Basically, for game companies from the Frozen North, the Big Southern Neighbour is their major market. And most game companies run on pretty thin margins anyway: any time your major market devalues its currency by a third in just a few years, you are going to get squeezed.

 

cheers, Mark

[input.jack]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I wonder if Hero looks at portfolios at Conventions like GenCon.??

 

They accepted mine, and never said a word to me about it afterward.

 

If I were a pessimistic person, Id be bitter.

 

Ive done several game-related projects. Ive never missed a deadline. People seem to like my work.

 

I cant get hired.

 

WTF?

 

Basically, Im just venting because Im not really looking to be a professional artist any more.

 

That dream has died.

[Markdoc]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Thanks for the tip, but I doubt degrees in English and Philosophy will qualify me for that job. Besides, in my chosen career field, once I finish the qualifying degrees, I'll work about 30 hours a week, nine months a year, for an entry level salary that averages around 50k, and after six years, I've got a job for life.

 

And people ask me why I'm putting in all the work for the PhD... pshaw. C'mon, y'all.

 

Got some advice for you, m'boy (speaking as a full professor with tenure, here). If you want tenure, be prepared to work 50+ hours a week, 11 1/2 months a year. If you want to climb the ladder to a full professorship, kick that up to 60+ hours a week.

 

Seriously.

 

I like the academic life: it offers intellectual stimulation, pretty good colleagues and a great deal of freedom in your work life. I actually like my job and have turned down offers to move onto the commercial side for much more pay, partly for that reason.

 

But to make a secure career out of it (particularly in the US) you're going to need to really work hard at it. That means not only teaching (and preparing for classes), but also research, administration, mentoring graduate students, writing papers and/or books, travelling to meetings and securing external funding.

 

If your goal is primarily to teach (and I'm not dissing that ambition), you can avoid most of that, but you won't get tenure that way.

 

Just sayin', is all.

 

Cheers, Mark

[OzMike]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

They accepted mine, and never said a word to me about it afterward.

 

If I were a pessimistic person, Id be bitter.

 

Ive done several game-related projects. Ive never missed a deadline. People seem to like my work.

 

I cant get hired.

 

WTF?

 

Basically, Im just venting because Im not really looking to be a professional artist any more.

 

That dream has died.

 

Well I bought the stand-ins via the link in your sig and liked what I saw, if any of those were yours and that's any consolation.

 

Also do you have a web-based portfolio? I don't see a link to one via your profile. I'd be interested to see.

 

And never discount the power of networking. That's what this place is - one big network. And each of us has a network and so on. You never know - someone one of us knows says something like "I really need a reliable and decent artist who can meet a tight deadline".

 

Don't let the dream die - persevere.

 

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.”

— Calvin Coolidge, 30th American president (1872-1933)

[tribe]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Well I bought the stand-ins via the link in your sig and liked what I saw, if any of those were yours and that's any consolation.

 

Also do you have a web-based portfolio? I don't see a link to one via your profile. I'd be interested to see.

 

And never discount the power of networking. That's what this place is - one big network. And each of us has a network and so on. You never know - someone one of us knows says something like "I really need a reliable and decent artist who can meet a tight deadline".

 

Don't let the dream die - persevere.

 

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.”

— Calvin Coolidge, 30th American president (1872-1933)

 

I agree with Mike. Why not show the Boards your work (unless you already have and I've missed it!).

 

You might even score some commissions from posters.

[wylodmayer]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Got some advice for you' date=' m'boy (speaking as a full professor with tenure, here). If you want tenure, be prepared to work 50+ hours a week, 11 1/2 months a year. If you want to climb the ladder to a full professorship, kick that up to 60+ hours a week.[/quote']

 

Hehehe - thanks for the advice! I actually do realize it takes a good bit of work; I was mostly being puckish in my comments. However, it does depend a bit on the university where you work, and your field. For instance, I put in a lot less time in my first year of grad school than my counterparts in the Genetics program, and I was working pretty hard compared to some of the folks who came in the same year as me. But that's only if you don't consider lazing around the couch reading philosophy "work" - if you do, then I routinely put in 50 to 70 hour weeks. It's just that the bulk of what I do, outside of classes and grading, consists of reading, pacing, talking to myself, and occasionally taking breaks for Xbox, rather than being in a lab and doing stuff that requires, you know, attention and technical skill.

 

Plus, the university where I attend is a large research university, so the professors there only teach two classes a semester and keep approximately one hour of office hours a week. Even factoring in committee work and grading, they are only "working" - that is, doing something other than reading or writing philosophy - about 20 to 30 hours a week. However, reading and writing philosophy is our real work. I just don't consider it work because, well, I enjoy it. The other stuff - committees etc - are the "work."

 

And, yeah, as a junior faculty, I'll get stuck with the scut work, I know, but I'm cool with it. I had a career in the "real world," and I didn't enjoy it. Academia for me, man.

[input.jack]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Well I bought the stand-ins via the link in your sig and liked what I saw, if any of those were yours and that's any consolation.

 

Also do you have a web-based portfolio? I don't see a link to one via your profile. I'd be interested to see.

 

And never discount the power of networking. That's what this place is - one big network. And each of us has a network and so on. You never know - someone one of us knows says something like "I really need a reliable and decent artist who can meet a tight deadline".

 

Don't let the dream die - persevere.

 

Thanks, OzMike. Yes, around half to 2/3 of the Stand Ins are my work (I think my roomate Jacob and I got credited on the stands of the individual figures. Im M. Curlee)

 

I dont have a web-based portfolio, for two reasons. (1) Im a computer dinosaur. I have little to know familiarity with computer stuff, and am easily confused (ask long-timers here how long it took me to figure out how to use the "quote" button). And (2) because of a forum I was on for several years. most of the stuff I have on computer is...well...naked wimmens with big boobies. I cant find a site thatll let me post a lot of what Ive got.

 

In addition to the "Stand Ins", I also did some of the art, including the cover, for "Mind over Matter", a psionics system for d20, and the art for "Battle Armor", written by my friend Owen K.C. Stephens (who basically created back stories and d20 rules write-ups for a lot of me pre-existing battle armor artwork). Both of these can be found at the site in my sig.

 

I guess it was late and I was tired. I wont ever stop being an artist; I cant. Its who I am. But I sometimes think the window of opportunity for me to become a =well known= artist passed me by some time in the late 80s, while I was gaming

[Markdoc]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Hehehe - thanks for the advice! I actually do realize it takes a good bit of work; I was mostly being puckish in my comments.

 

I guessed - hence the avuncular, professorial "m'boy"

 

Anyway reading *is* work: when it's directed. Right now is the glorious summer holidays and our department has shrunk to about 8 from more than 40. All I'm doing this week is sitting in my office, drinking coffee and reading - all preparation for writing a couple of manuscripts. I like my job, but let's face it: I'm not going to read "Increased Bcl-2 and reduced Bax expression in infected macrophages in slowly progressive primary Mycobacterium tuberculosis infection" for yuks.

 

And' date=' yeah, as a junior faculty, I'll get stuck with the scut work, I know, but I'm cool with it. I had a career in the "real world," and I didn't enjoy it. Academia for me, man.[/quote']

 

Likewise. After I first graduated, I got a "real" job as a manager. I was a pretty damn good manager, if I say so myself, but I left after a few months - after fixing all their problems, I had nothing much to do but oversee - and I was soon bored witless. But it took me grad school, med school, and 4 years of work before I got back to the same salary level I wouldn't be doing this job if I didn't like it.

 

cheers, Mark

[OzMike]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Thanks' date=' OzMike. Yes, around half to 2/3 of the Stand Ins are my work (I think my roomate Jacob and I got credited on the stands of the individual figures. Im M. Curlee) [/quote']

 

Nice work then.

 

I dont have a web-based portfolio, for two reasons. (1) Im a computer dinosaur. I have little to know familiarity with computer stuff, and am easily confused (ask long-timers here how long it took me to figure out how to use the "quote" button). And (2) because of a forum I was on for several years. most of the stuff I have on computer is...well...naked wimmens with big boobies. I cant find a site thatll let me post a lot of what Ive got.

 

Get a free Yahoo! account (or Google I suppose, but I am on Yahoo! and know how it works). Upload images to the image server - used to be Yahoo photos but I think they're now attached to Flickr - it should be straight forward if you follow the onscreen instructions. Get a friend to help. Or burn the images to a disc, post it to someone, and get them to do it for you if you are too afraid to try/busy to learn. Post a link here to start with.

 

In addition to the "Stand Ins", I also did some of the art, including the cover, for "Mind over Matter", a psionics system for d20, and the art for "Battle Armor", written by my friend Owen K.C. Stephens (who basically created back stories and d20 rules write-ups for a lot of me pre-existing battle armor artwork). Both of these can be found at the site in my sig.

 

You should offer commission work here - that Mind over Matter cover looks sweet. I'd take you up on it if it wasn't going to cost too much.

 

Or start a series of threads like Death Tribble where you present a list of ideas and let people poll for which one they'd like to see. Then you could draw it yourself and post the result (use a scanner at... hmmm *memory of North American stuff activated* Kinko's or something like that to make it digital). Build up a portfolio of non-nudies.

 

I guess it was late and I was tired. I wont ever stop being an artist; I cant. Its who I am. But I sometimes think the window of opportunity for me to become a =well known= artist passed me by some time in the late 80s, while I was gaming

 

The window is only gone once you're dead, my friend. Keep the dream alive and chase it to buggery!

 

Tally-ho!

[wylodmayer]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I dont have a web-based portfolio' date=' for two reasons. (1) Im a computer dinosaur. I have little to know familiarity with computer stuff, and am easily confused (ask long-timers here how long it took me to figure out how to use the "quote" button). And (2) because of a forum I was on for several years. most of the stuff I have on computer is...well...naked wimmens with big boobies. I cant find a site thatll let me post a lot of what Ive got.[/quote']

 

(1) I know a ton of people who might be able to not only find you a server, but also design your website (legacy of a former career in the tech industry) and (2) I totally need to check out your work, dude. Heh.

[wylodmayer]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Anyway reading *is* work: when it's directed...I like my job' date=' but let's face it: I'm not going to read "Increased Bcl-2 and reduced Bax expression in infected macrophages in slowly progressive primary Mycobacterium tuberculosis infection" for yuks.[/quote']

 

Gaaaaaaaaaaah... yeah. I think there's the crucial difference in our fields, though. I would read stuff like "Duress, Deception and the Validity of a Promise" (current issue of Mind) or "Nations, Overlapping Generations and Historic Injustice" (last fall's American Philosophical Quarterly) for fun - and that stuff constitutes the core of our disciplinary literature.

 

I get the feeling - and I could be wrong - that the "fun" stuff in your field is doing the research, figuring out the problem and so forth. In my field, even the professional literature can be (but isn't necessarily) a lot of fun. David Chalmers, who does philosophy of mind, is hilarious, and John Kvanvig has a wicked turn of phrase when he feels like using it. I suppose the contrast derives from the supposedly "correct" tone of the literature of scientific research - arid, from my limited experience with it. By comparison (and only by comparison), we're over here composing in iambic pentameter.

 

But, I take your point - it isn't always fun. Reading Kant is pain and damage.

 

...it took me grad school, med school, and 4 years of work before I got back to the same salary level I wouldn't be doing this job if I didn't like it.

 

Hehehehe. I used to have a "real" job that paid a lot more than I'm making now, and competed nicely with what I'll be making when I graduate. But, see, since I've been so poor through school, even my starting salary as an academic will seem like riches! It's a great plan, no?

 

Thanks, man, seriously.

[Publius]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I like the academic life: it offers intellectual stimulation' date=' pretty good colleagues and a great deal of freedom in your work life. I actually like my job and have turned down offers to move onto the commercial side for much more pay, partly for that reason.[/quote']

You forgot the co-eds. And the "Freedom in your work life" is the real perk (along with the co-eds) because it is very cool not to have a boss down your back all the time.

...If your goal is primarily to teach (and I'm not dissing that ambition)' date=' you can avoid most of that, but you won't get tenure that way.[/quote']This is where I am at now. I have been a "Part-time"* instructor for 15 years now, my economic life runs in 4 month cycles. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. I've been on that tightrope for twice as long as the average "career" and I'm going to do it as long as I can. I love teaching, I love the autonomy and while the pay can always be better it aint bad if you teach enough classes (since I get paid by the course).

 

*"Part-time" my @$$. Which amuses me no end as those lazy "full-time" people teach 5 classes at most a year to my 12, often less than a measley 5 with course releases for nonsense crap like imaginary 'Centers' that are essentially all on paper or heading "Programs" with less than 20 students in them. I have taught more classes than my department chair and I teach more courses titles (American Gov, Constitutional Law, American Political Culture etc.) than he does as well. Admittedly, I don't have to research (as if I'd have the time) but then neither do most of my collegues who are full-time either; they sit on their tenured asses all day long (I pray for Post-Tenure review to sweep away the debris, but it never comes). I on the other hand have taught 12 classes a year, 12 months a year for the last 8 years and have been teaching without a single semester off (Sabbaticals are for wussies) the entire 15 years I have been doing this.

 

Oh, and I'm classified the same as a migrant farm worker ("Part-time seasonal"). But the perks you mention make that all worthwhile... If only there would be some recognition for the slave labor class of University instruction.

 

 

...Let my people go-oooo...

[Publius]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

And oh yeah, I have never missed a deadline for HERO. Ever. I've brushed it once, but 11:58 PM is still on that calendar date.