Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

[Michael Hopcroft]

One of the first things you would notice about a Medieval or Renaissance city should you happen to visit it is the smells. In fact, unless you'd prepared yourself beforehand, the smells would make you retch. Raw sewage in the gutters is only the beginning. If you were invited to court you'd immediately notice that the King and just about everyone else, in their fancy, multiply-layered and thoroughly impractical clothing, would all have body odor that could kill an elk at fifty paces, and that the perfumes they used to mask it would only make matters worse.

 

But this wasn't just unpleasant -- it was dangerous. Sanitation this bad player a major role, historically, in all the plagues and diseases that made life difficult for people in those times.

 

By contrast, most fantasy-world cities at roughly the same level are very neat and clean by comparison. People have access to fresh water, bathe regularly, keep the streets clean and manage to find ways to keep their clothes (even those impossible outfits that seem impossible to wash) clean. Assuming magic is used in some capacity to make this practical, how does that work? And how can that magic be applied to the lives of a PC adventuring party (so they don't smell like rotting beef carcasses when they stroll into town after an adventure)?

[eternal_sage]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

i've always based my cities more on the Asian/Native American vibe than the European style, for just this reason. i know that the Native Americans "taught" the colonists to bathe regularly, and that Incan cities had actual sewers. the Japanese were also VERY into cleanliness, and i think also had some form of sewage system for their cities, but i am unsure on that. its mostly a cultural thing. i've heard (and this is hearsay, and not intended to offend anyone, just a simple declaration of things as i understand them) that dental hygine is still relatively unheard of in England (altough the source was Scottish, so take it with a grain of salt ).

 

you don't neccessarily need magic to invoke a sense of non-disgustingness, just give the people a viable cultural reason for being clean, and the situation solves itself (i've heard the Scotch believed that dirt kept in heat, so they didn't clean up often for fear of freezing to death, and even my own grandmother believed that taking a bath anytime other than the middle of the day was a sure way to catch cold).

 

research different cultures, though, and see what you can find, then just make something in your culture to mimic those aspects, and you are set.

[McCoy]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

Assuming magic is used in some capacity to make this practical' date=' how does that work? [/quote']

At midnight,, all waste products are instantly composted and wished into the cornfield?

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

In my high-fantasy campaign, everyone has access to a small VPP (an everyman magical VPP).

 

At the 10 active points level, you get your basic ability to Clean, Polish, and Mend and all those nifty minor magics that that OTHER role playing system has. Usually this counts as a simple 1 Hex Change Environment, +1 Variable Effects, because it is fun to watch six or seven adventures all try to cram into one hex.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

Interesting bits of history:

 

Paris first installed "sewers" in ther 1200s. They were open troughs down the center of the street though, so not much help. The first underground sewer in Paris was built in 1370, and most of it's failings were due to lack of upkeep. Napoleon had the sewer system overhauled, expanded and updated in the 1800s.

 

London, by contrast, had cesspits in just about every home by the 1800s, along with an attempt at an open street sewer system. The insides of London homes smelled worse than the outside most of the time.

 

I'd wager body oder issues were mostly due to a lack of cost efficient manner of transporting clean water. But then - body oder is mostly bad because we say it is. Wasn't it marketing that told people they had a under-arm stench problem in the first place?

 

I'd imagine in rural areas people had less B.O. due to not living on top of (in the case of London) sewage.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

 

I'd wager body oder issues were mostly due to a lack of cost efficient manner of transporting clean water. But then - body oder is mostly bad because we say it is. Wasn't it marketing that told people they had a under-arm stench problem in the first place?

You obviously haven't had to deal with the Indians around a college campus (the students, I'm not talking about those that immigrate) who don't seem to understand the concept of deodorant.

 

It'll make your eyes water.

 

For men, deodorant is not an option, it's mandatory.

 

Can anyone explain that to me? As a group, Indians nationals (and Pakistanis) just didn't seem to use deodorant and alot of them really really needed to. It was obvious that they showered, just they didn't do that last bit.

 

TB

[Maur]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

If you grow up with it you don't notice it. In Fantasy RPGs the women also all seem to have shaved legs and armpits, have seen dentists and have access to soaps and shampoos.

[Inu]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

You obviously haven't had to deal with the Indians around a college campus (the students, I'm not talking about those that immigrate) who don't seem to understand the concept of deodorant.

 

It'll make your eyes water.

 

For men, deodorant is not an option, it's mandatory.

 

Can anyone explain that to me? As a group, Indians nationals (and Pakistanis) just didn't seem to use deodorant and alot of them really really needed to. It was obvious that they showered, just they didn't do that last bit.

What Maur said. Plus, they come from a country where you'd probably sweat past any deodorant in the world, so nobody bothers. I don't know about Indians, but the Samoans that I've known were all VERY heavy sweaters. It's just how they adapted to the local climate; temperature takes a tiny hike, sweatsweatsweat. In such an environment, the nose would simply refuse to acknowledge BO.

 

The olfactory system is quite amazing. Youc an get used to any smell in the world -- it filters most remarkably. In my case, too well. I don't smell things for more than a brief bit. This is good, in that I can get used to things quickly. It's also bad, in that I can't smell my own odours. I have to take good care of myself, because I know I simply won't pick up on whether I'm smelling bad or not. I just simply cannot tell.

[Markdoc]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

For men' date=' deodorant is not an option, it's mandatory.[/quote']

 

Depends on how often you wash - I shower every morning and again after a gym session. Never used deodorant and apparently don't need it since the only comments I have had about personal odour is that "smell nice".

 

I have all too often however had to share a cab or field vehicle with several smelly African or Indian colleagues - and I don't think the problem is a lack of cologne (which is often pretty offensive anyway - most male colognes smell like industrial cleaning wash) but the fact that they don't wash as often: maybe every 2-3 days, which in a hot climate doesn't keep the smell down.

 

The good news is that your nose adjusts fast - after a couple of days you literally can't notice it. Good thing too - on one trip we couldn't wash for 10 days. I didn't notice any particular smell, although we were sharing tents, but when I got back and showered, the water swirling in the bottom of the shower was literally dark brown.

 

cheers, Mark

[Fitz]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

Personal hygiene is for the WEAK!

[Markdoc]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

One of the first things you would notice about a Medieval or Renaissance city should you happen to visit it is the smells. In fact' date=' unless you'd prepared yourself beforehand, the smells would make you retch. Raw sewage in the gutters is only the beginning. If you were invited to court you'd immediately notice that the King and just about everyone else, in their fancy, multiply-layered and thoroughly impractical clothing, would all have body odor that could kill an elk at fifty paces, and that the perfumes they used to mask it would only make matters worse.[/quote']

 

Not entirely true. I have been in places where sewage still runs down drains in the street and where the nightsoil man still comes to empty the pots. It's stinky, sure but not not "knock your sinuses out" stinky. The strongest smell in places like that is usually urine - both from animals and people pissing in corners.

 

However some cities in that situation are actually OK. Harar, for example - an old medieval city on the edge of the Ogaden desert has primitive (like run 6 inched under the street, primitive) sewers and most sewerage is carried out in big pots to the fields. Pissing in the street is strictly forbidden, everything is clean and whitewashed and the street sweepers clean up after animals (the streets in Harar are far too steep and narrow for wheeled vehicles) - they collect and sell the dung. The only place that is stinky is the meat market, where they kill lots of animals - and not surprisingly, that's located close to one of city gates where the smell mostly just blows away. I've been in modern cities that smelled worse.

 

Not all places are like this - I've visited a chinese town where the many of the houses were built on stilts out over mud flats and the stench of black mud, rotting fish remnants dumped from the market, sewage, sewage and thousands of sweaty bodies baking in high humidity and 40 celcius temperatures can hardly be described. But that's an exception, not the rule.

 

Likewise, the idea that medieval people hardly ever bathed is an old Victorian notion, not really accepted by historians any more. In many medieval civilizations bathing regularly was a must (in some cities in Italy and in Central Europe bathing once a week was enforced by law, for men: you could be fined if you didn't). We know that both the English and French kings bathed daily because it was a semi-public affair: they were attended in their bath by select nobles. Many medieval castles have quite large, elaborate bathing facilities and pictures of bathing as well as diatribes against the evils of mixed bathing abound in their thousands. It was obviously common practice and at least one pope preached against the fashion of the time for bathing daily in large Italian cities.

 

In Norman times it was the duty of a hostess to offer any arriving guest a bath and this tradition continued - at least among those of gentle birth into the middle ages. Bathing and Saunas were also popular in the far north right through the middle ages and up until today, while even small towns in in Italy usually had public bathing facilities - although wealthier people usually bathed at home. Although that was in the 1500s, so renaissance rather than medieval, De Montaigne in his diary of travels through France, Italy, Germany and Switzerland comments on the bathing facilities at the inns they used - and he was a man who liked his baths!

 

I suspect that in real life, a collection of wealthier people in medieval times would have been no stinkier than a gathering of middle class people most places in Africa or Asia today: that is to say, stinkier and more perfumed than us pampered westerners would like, but nothing too bad. Poor people would smell like poor people in developing countries today - which is to say, quite stinky - but not to bad as long as you didn't spend much time in enclosed quarters with them.

 

But this wasn't just unpleasant -- it was dangerous. Sanitation this bad player a major role' date=' historically, in all the plagues and diseases that made life difficult for people in those times.[/quote']

 

Plague has got very little to do with sanitation - it's the waterborne diseases like Cholera (which medieval Europe was thankfully spared) that are sanitation related. Still, you are right, poor sanitation practices definitely contributed to illness.

 

By contrast' date=' most fantasy-world cities at roughly the same level are very neat and clean by comparison. People have access to fresh water, bathe regularly, keep the streets clean and manage to find ways to keep their clothes (even those impossible outfits that seem impossible to wash) clean. Assuming magic is used in some capacity to make this practical, how does that work? And how can that magic be applied to the lives of a PC adventuring party (so they don't smell like rotting beef carcasses when they stroll into town after an adventure)?[/quote']

 

I'd assume that when adventurers roll into town after living rough, fighting and getting blood and other filth on their gear that they *do* smell like rotting carcases (well except for Lamoniak, in my game who paid for a magical charm that keeps himself and his gear clean) - and that first order of business is a bath and new clothes.

 

Any traveler in medieval times is going to smell pretty ripe when he arrives in town - which is why most inns had baths.

 

For people actually living in town, magic could be used (and probably is by rich people. If you pay 10,000 solidi - and the wealthiest did pay those kinds of prices - for a ball dress you'll probably pay a local magician a few hundred to keep it in good shape). Otherwise, you pay the washerwoman to clean and mend you clothes just like people did in the old days.

 

I also assume that in the more civilized parts of the world, that sewer systems, and a regular force to keep cleanliness and order in the streets exist, so that generally things *are* at a higher standard of cleanliness - and that with all those wizards and priest around who can heal magically and prevent disease, epidemic illnesses are less common and less important. I also assume that for much the same reason that knowledge of the causes of illness are somewhat better understood. People are less likely to believe illness is caused by possession or evil spirits when real possession and evil spirits exist - as do people who can detect and deal with those things.

 

cheers, Mark

[Kestrel]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

Well, the Romans managed to do quite well, as far as sanitation and personal hygiene went. Granted, it wasn't completely effective, but it was certainly a LOT better than some other civilizations.

 

Heated bathing pools for the public. Running water. Covered sewers. Another method they had for "bathing" was to smear themselves with olive oil, then scrape it off, along with the dirt and sweat.

 

There were other ways around the hygiene issue too. To avoid lice, the Egyptians shaved their heads and wore wigs. Even the women. The Chinese, the Mayans, the Aztecs. They all had their own ways of dealing with such things.

 

As far as a fantasy game goes, you could go the route of the Guardians of the Flame novels. One major city they went to had a sewer system that dumped everything into a central cesspit. Chained in the pit was a dragon that flamed the sewage to ash.

 

If that's a little over the top, then you can try other things. Purification potions. Spells. Gates to other dimensions. Personal hygiene could be answered with such things as magically filling bathtubs, spells or other such things.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

You obviously haven't had to deal with the Indians around a college campus (the students, I'm not talking about those that immigrate) who don't seem to understand the concept of deodorant.

 

It'll make your eyes water.

 

For men, deodorant is not an option, it's mandatory.

 

Can anyone explain that to me? As a group, Indians nationals (and Pakistanis) just didn't seem to use deodorant and alot of them really really needed to. It was obvious that they showered, just they didn't do that last bit.

 

TB

 

I know you've been out in the field for more than a couple days at a time. You get so used to your own smell in those situations that you don't realize how smelly you are until you get home and take a shower.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

I know you've been out in the field for more than a couple days at a time. You get so used to your own smell in those situations that you don't realize how smelly you are until you get home and take a shower.

Oh, I know you get used to your own smell (10 days straight in the same pair of BDUs, they looked like well oiled canvas when I was done with that FTX:D)

 

I was talking about living and studying in an American collegiate environment.

 

There was one guy that was a student night checker at my dorm. He literally could stink up the entire office area (3-5 large rooms) he stank so bad.

 

TB

[Kristopher]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

I'm cursed with a nose that does not adapt. I've never "gotten used to" a smell.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

Oh, I know you get used to your own smell (10 days straight in the same pair of BDUs, they looked like well oiled canvas when I was done with that FTX:D)

 

I was talking about living and studying in an American collegiate environment.

 

There was one guy that was a student night checker at my dorm. He literally could stink up the entire office area (3-5 large rooms) he stank so bad.

 

TB

 

It's the same deal. He was used to his own smell, and it probably came back quickly enough after a shower that he never got unused to it.

[Thag13]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

IN my Tunfaire game,

 

The city had a sewer system and the scrubbing system for the waste was mushrooms and cattails that had been magically breed for the task of cleaning up the sewers.

 

It wasn't perfect, and low level criminals were often given the sentence of having to go clean up and make sure the system was doing ok, but it worked pretty well .

 

Of course, my PCs found out the hard way.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

IN my Tunfaire game,

 

The city had a sewer system and the scrubbing system for the waste was mushrooms and cattails that had been magically breed for the task of cleaning up the sewers.

 

It wasn't perfect, and low level criminals were often given the sentence of having to go clean up and make sure the system was doing ok, but it worked pretty well .

 

Of course, my PCs found out the hard way.

Were the mushrooms vicious with lots of teeth like in "Mom and Dad save the World"?

 

 

TB

[Thag13]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

Well, I didnt think of that....

 

Thanks for reminding me of that movie......

[input.jack]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

For most of the Fantasy games Im in we assume that most of the wealthy types have access to minor cleaning magics. A simple Cosmetic Transformation spell "Dirty > Clean" is easy enough to slip into your spell Multipower, (or more often, have as a "Known Spell" for the VPP that has "Only Known Spells" as a Limitation). In fact, its become known as the "Clean and Fluff" spell around here.

 

As for the "shaved pits and legs, seen the dentist and a hairdresser" thing, we just assume that the overall level of grooming is higher than it was historically, that most civilized cities have closed sewers similar to those the Romans had (before the Dark Ages and everything interesting got lost), and that because of cosmetic and healing magic, the absence of a total societal collapse that took sanitation with it, and the fact that its OUR fantasy game, things just worked out how we wanted them to

 

(I.E. dont stress over it if its what you wanted)

[Badger]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

I'm smelling disabled personally. If I smell something it is pretty strong. But, anyhow. From what my nose does work I have found that colognes, perfumes and aftershaves are much more irritable for me than poop as a rule. I never use aftershave or cologne. And generally if I am staying home all day, I dont usually use deodorant, though I use it liberally when I leave the house though, so dont worry if you meet me.

 

 

But, as far as baths. I have a hard time dealing with doing anything till I get my morning shower, and I usually take another when I get home from work. I am a little bit of a clean freak in taking showers. I used to be real obsessive-compulsive 7-10 years ago about it. Not so much now. Still a little though.

 

If I went back in time to the miedieval ages? I'd lose my mind.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

I'm smelling disabled personally. If I smell something it is pretty strong.

 

I have the opposite problem, my nose picks up anything. I have a conscious awareness, sometimes, of what feels like the bare minimum number of molecules to set off an offactory nerve in the nose. When I was in living in the college dorms, I could tell what floor someone carrying food got off the elevator at.

[Badger]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

I have the opposite problem' date=' my nose picks up anything. I have a conscious awareness, sometimes, of what feels like the bare minimum number of molecules to set off an offactory nerve in the nose. When I was in living in the college dorms, I could tell what floor someone carrying food got off the elevator at.[/quote']

 

 

Well, I do have great vision and hearing, so it does balance out.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

I'd have to agree with the idea that you can deal with the hygiene issue by trying a different culture or stealing on easpect of that culture. The Chinese have had clean water for centuries I believe. Of course most Europeans got around the bad drinking water problem by consuming small beer or wine instead.

There is always the option of having a special underclass or race that deals with all the grime and takes it away, eats it, puts it on their crops, sacrifices to the lord of filth whose shrines lie beneath every major city etc.

In high fantasy larger cities will have access to wizards and the like who can use spells to clean the place up or even to construct magically efficient sewer systems and aqueducts. This could allow for a stark contrast between the 'civilised' towns and rural villages full of grubby provincials who don't have access to the amenities. PC's from the 'Big City' might even find themselves resented by villagers for their fancy city ways of bathing regular. In fact if you wanted an unusual quest you could have the PC's hired to protect a wizard-architect as he travels the provinces trying to sell his services to suspicious and superstitious peasants.

BTW dental hygiene alive and well in England, all children and students get free dental care from the NHS and toothbrushes and toothpaste are established cultural phenomenons.

[Rage]

Re: Hi, Gene! Magic, Sanitation and Cleanliness

 

supposedly the entire 'British Smile' thing came from the fact that 1. British people are often characterised as horsey in American publications, and 2. while dental care for children is free; the more cosmetic stuff wasn't and a lot of it still isn't.