Heroic Endurance and Stun

[nexus]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Speaking as a player, I'd prefer another system to something like that. In Hero that makes engaging in combat in any situation where you not pretty much 100 percent sure there isn't going to be a nother one for quite some time tantamout to commtting sucide. Low power characters don't have much to dump into Stun/Endurance increases and their recoveries are equally low. Unless the game is meant ot be almost zilch combat and mostly political/social.

[UltraRob]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

I think the simpler compromise lies in the area of Long Term Endurance. Just have STUN damage inflict LTE with the idea being that the body is suffering pain and stress. If you want to set up a really simple system, have say 5 STUN taken inflict 1pt worth of LTE to the character. This will accumulate quickly if they get into multiple fights, and result in characters barely able to lift a finger after a few fights if they get hit a lot.

 

Or alternately, just say that every turn of combat automatically causes 4-(REC/3, round down) points of LTE to the characters involved. This would mean a weak character with 3 REC or less takes 3 LTE per turn of combat activity, an average one takes 2 LTE, better than average (9 REC) takes 1 LTE a turn and superhuman (12+) could just take 0 per turn. Using this system, one fight won't exhaust you, but continuous fights quickly will.

 

Rob

[The Monster]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

I myself don't think it's much a problem, either - I tend to run pretty pulpy games anyway, so a game where the heroes are back for action in a few minutes doesn't bug me at all. There is always the fact that BODY damage doesn't REC in tactical time, so the limitation on their combat ability relates (in my games) to BODY damage. I've had several occasions where PCs are operating on one or two hit points, or even negatives (making EGO rolls each phase). It ends up being pretty heroic-looking, with everyone knowing that the next hit could put you down for the count.

 

My impression is that a big part of the problem revolves around role-playing and trust of the GM. Role-playing because it's easy for players to laugh off or totally ignore the fact that their character has been beaten practically to unconsciouness, but recoved all his points after a short rest. As I said in the other thread, it's like the hit points system where the player says "I've still got four hp left, no problem," never mind that the character started with 98 hp. Some of this is bravado, some may be simply game-playing/metagaming. But the feeling of suffering and risk in combat does sometimes lack punch (so to speak) when these attitudes are prevalent. Frankly, I'm not sure imposing it in game system rules is the best way to go, but it seems to work for some people. (As a side note, the death-spiral systems I know - Shadowrun, Deadlands, and Savage Worlds - have "luck point" systems whereby a lot of damage can be canceled. This can be fun, but all it really does is move the its-only-a-flesh-wound problem from the number of hp you have to the number of luck points you have. The thing that strikes me about SWSaga is that the character can, with the right feats and actions, manipulate their own death spiral!)

 

People playing heroes who aren't being heroic? There's something wrong there. Heroes are supposed to be the ones who keep going in spite of getting hurt or other difficulties (I've become aware that some people think that heroes are people who have mega-L33t skilz that just awe everybody else, but that just triggers my anti-munchkin prejudice). In Hero (and D&D), the ability to ignore accumulated damage reflects that. The potential problem with death-spiral games is that the heroes do become *less* capable as the climax approaches, which risks making the GM either nerf the climax or let the heroes lose.

 

But when PCs become cowardly, that sounds an alarm to me. IMO that means the players feel they have a reason to not be heroic - either they don't want their precious characters to get hurt (in which case they're not playing heroes, they're playing cowards and should be told such), or they're afraid they will be punished by the GM for getting hurt. Some - even many, even most - players just have a hard time dealing with having their character KOd or captured; in part I think this is because they are convinced the GM is going to take the opportunity to screw them over, whether they have any objective reason to think that or not (and gosh, I can't remember ever hearing or making cracks about how hard I was going to make things for the PCs...GMs never do that! )

Over the years, I've managed to convince most of my regular players (and all the ones in my Pulp game, thank goodness!) that I'm not going to simply screw them if they fall in combat. They may be captured, or left for dead, or wake up in a hopital, but in any case, the result will be turned into an interesting scene, not an excuse to punish them. Obviously, that's easier to do in some genres than others (after all, getting captured is a staple of supers and many pulps), but it still takes something of leap of faith for the player to allow the GM that much freedom.

 

The GM can help by creating situations where the PCs don't necessarily have to succeed or die in the first attempt; the classic bits like the world-ending ceremony that is about to reach its climax takes careful application (though usally that's an ambush by the PCs, so it's easier to deal with then open combat). If the GM can establish that the bad guys aren't going to automatically take all their stuff and slit their throats just because they can.

 

Aah...I'm getting all long-winded again. My main point is that I think this is primarily an issue about players and GMs, not so much about rules.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

i haven't played it personally, but i hear Call of Chuthullu has a really short character life span, so that maybe also somewhere to look (because, lets not kid ourselves, these combats are going to be EXTREMELY dangerous, and i would expect a character to die every few sessions, otherwise nothing has been gained other than making the rules more confusing). however, and i don't know your players or the set up for this game, many players that i do know would not enjoy that sort of set up.

 

and yes, nexus, this is why i suggested SR, nWoD, and Star Wars Saga, because they have systems which, as you said, make combats short, brutal, and scary, which it seems is what the OP wants.

[Stormraven]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Okay, how many times do I have to say it? If I want short, super-lethal combat, I know exactly how to get it in the Hero System. Lethality is not what I'm looking for.

 

I want the PCs to be able to survive combats. I just want them to know they were in combat for more than a minute of rest.

 

I will also grant that this is not likely to be a huge issue most of the time. It's a PBEM game, so there will be times when I just pass right over ten or twenty or thirty minutes. In fact, I'll even grant that that'll be the majority of the time.

 

So why is it such an issue for me?

 

Well, it started with me wanting to limit mages. I realized that, no matter how much End their spells cost, they'd recover it very quickly, and be casting spells left and right, much more than I wanted.

 

Now, I could fix that with a required End Reserve, but I didn't want to force players to spend more points on magic than they already would. I also realized that the problem with Magic Users was also a problem with anyone who used a lot of End.

 

Of course, the obvious answer is LTE. Trouble is, the LTE system comes off as being pretty complex. I wanted a simpler answer, one that could be quickly calculated for when I jumped over longer periods of time.

 

Of course, limiting free recoveries - which is what I came up with - would also limit Stun recoveries, which I considered entirely appropriate for the type of game I was running.

 

I am well aware that Stun in the Hero system isn't supposed to be bodily insult, so healing Stun quickly doesn't conflate with healing bruises and muscle aches, but - as has been pointed out by others - those are things that most players won't play out without some mechanical guidelines. That has been my experience, and it isn't even an attack on players. I do it myself when there are no firm guidelines as to how the system handles damage that isn't broken bones, deep cuts, etc.

 

So I was trying to come up with a way to reinforce, in players' minds, that their characters aren't at their best, without having to make combat more lethal, or throw in a 'death spiral'.

 

As to why it's so important to me? Well, Hero is my favorite system, in general. I mostly run cinematic and superheroic games, so I've never really noticed this issue I have with recovery until trying to set up a game that isn't cinematic.

 

I'll admit that I've never really considered it appropriate for lower level games, but my concerns in that area were always about characteristics - I'd never considered the other aspects of it.

 

My investment in this is because I want Hero to work. I know the system, I know my players tend to prefer it, and I have a whole bunch of supplements to back it up. I just wanted Hero to be able to do what I want it to do.

 

It seems, however, that for that to happen, I'll have to do something that'll alienate my players, and I'm not willing to do that. So, it looks like I'm right, at least in this instance - Hero can't do what I want.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

An adrenaline based combat bonus could be simulated by giving everyone 1 or 2 free CSL's with continuing charges (1-5 minutes). The PC's will typically burn through these in the first combat of the adventure and then be without them for the rest of the day.

[nexus]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Okay' date=' how many times do I have to say it? If I want short, super-lethal combat, I know exactly how to get it in the Hero System. Lethality is [b']not[/b] what I'm looking for.

 

I think what people are saying is that limiting recovers iis going to make combat more lethal unless you keep them so far apart the limiting does not matter which defeats the your stated purpose except for book keeping.

 

I want the PCs to be able to survive combats. I just want them to know they were in combat for more than a minute of rest.

 

The characters will now they were in combat, why is it so important the players know it via some mechaniical hinderance? Especially its not even going to be issue most of the time? Ther recovery system in Hero isn't spectacularly cinematic outside of certain situations unless you assume its complete recovery and no one ever needs nor wants sleep or rest if they have full Endurance. There are some murphy's rules moment in I grant you. Nothing's perfect.

 

But as I said, I've ususally had players that do consider their characters are tired, a little beat up and such if they were just in a massive fight a couple of minutes ago. Also, given some of the feats of exertion I've seen and heard of real people pulling off I'm hesistant to be too strict on what's realitistc, gritty, non cinematic. But, all things vary and I'm genuinely sorry you feel that Hero doesn't do what you want.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Sorry to hear HERO can't do what you want. Just make sure you pick a system that gives them what THEY want and I'm sure you'll do great.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Sounds like the LTE system forms a basis for what you want. What's the nature of the "too much bookeeping" concern? Could it be solved by modifying the LTE rules themselves?

 

I see two areas where bookkeeping kicks in.

 

First, determining END used in the period and its multiple of REC. What about:

 

- charging characters a set LTE amount for each phase or turn of combat? That eliminates the math issue. However, it doesn't scale LTE with END actually used.

 

- setting a set % of END used as LTE. For example, for every 5 END used, the character loses 1 LTE. You can track END usage per phase,per turn, etc. as you see fit. You can set this as being only even increments of 5 (ie 1 to 9 END in a phase costs you 1 LTE) to minimize impact, and allow for near-tireless characters with low END usage. You could make it 1 LTE for each 1/2 of REC if you want REC to continue reducing the impact of LTE.

 

Second, recovering LTE. You could fix this by making the REC fixed instead of scaling with character REC, or by changing the time period, or by simply allowing that a good night's sleep (or an hour of rest, or what have you) recovers all LTE, and nothing less does anything.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

If it is simple that you want then I think a modified form of LTE that I considered might suit you.

 

You have to decide what level of activity begins racking up the tiredness for you. Once you have that then you simply record the level of fatigue of each character.

 

At zero fatigue everything works just like you'd expect. Every turn of combat adds ENC to fatigue. In the first combat fatigue simply accumulates with no real effect. It is subsequent combats that it plays a role.

 

When fatigue is greater than 1xBODY a character will expend 1 additional END each combat phase simply to keep active, at 2XBODY they spend 2 additional END each phase etc etc

 

Fatigue recovers at REC/hour of complete rest or REC/day for travel, work etc. Normal sleep time adds REC/night and REC per additional hour of sleep beyond the regular eight hours.

 

There is no upper limit to the amount of fatigue you can accumulate but you can see that it will quickly reduce characters non-functional if they continually enter combats.

 

 

I think Hero can do anything you want it to but you have to have a clear idea of what you want to achieve first. The biggest problem is often trying to get that clear idea...

 

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Also, part of the problem may be that two concepts over time have flowed together.

 

The initial problem - that Mages who use END to power their spells have their full arsenal again after a minute or two's rest is a significant one. In my FH games, I dealt with that problem by making all spell use cost LTE. Simple, direct and limits spell casting to a couple of spells per combat or one spell-casting orgy per day - and if the mage feels suitably heroic or desperate they can burn STUN (and even BOD) to keep going. Too much spellcasting leaves them so exhausted they can't move at more than a walk, carry heavy objects, etc.

 

In another game, Spell-casting used up EGO (which recovered at REC/day) and all magic was EGO-based, so as spell casters used up EGO, they became more psychically vulnerable.

 

There are, of course plenty of other solutions to this particular problem: it's a question of what sort of "feel" you want.

 

That's a *different* problem to the lingering effects of STUN damage and probably warrants a different solution. Greatly reducing the rate at which STUN recovers is likely to be too impairing - as noted, it shifts the game to DnD mode where your ability to survive greatly degrades as time goes on - leading players to hole up for recoveries or magic healing once they have taken "X damage". Even if the intent is not to increase lethality, that's what the effect will be, since an unconscious character is at the mercy of his foes.

 

An alternate suggestion for the "wound" problem might be to introduce variants on the impairing system. When you take a hit that "Con-stuns" you, that location becomes "partially-impaired". The effect is the same as impairing from BOD damage, but you can recover one partial impairment in 24 divided by REC hours. So Joe Normal could recover a partial impairment in 12 hours, but Bill the Tank (Rec 8) could do so in only three hours. That way combat has the chance - but not the certainty - of reducing your capacity for some hours, but the effect will not last more than a day, unless you have taken multiple "partial impairments" within a short period. This method has the advantage of requiring little book-keeping: you simply note that location X is partially impaired when it happens. It has the disadvantage that it would widen the combat gap between combat monsters with high PD and CON and more fragile characters (that might be an advantage if you want to encourage character specialization)

 

Alternately, just use the impairing rules, where even minor BOD damage can have a lingering effect. This takes STUN damage out of the equation, but will mean that multiple combats in a short space of time becomes very dangerous.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Markdoc hits the nail on the head - each problem needs to be defined before it can be resolved.

 

That's a *different* problem to the lingering effects of STUN damage and probably warrants a different solution. Greatly reducing the rate at which STUN recovers is likely to be too impairing - as noted, it shifts the game to DnD mode where your ability to survive greatly degrades as time goes on - leading players to hole up for recoveries or magic healing once they have taken "X damage". Even if the intent is not to increase lethality, that's what the effect will be, since an unconscious character is at the mercy of his foes.

 

An alternate suggestion for the "wound" problem might be to introduce variants on the impairing system. When you take a hit that "Con-stuns" you, that location becomes "partially-impaired". The effect is the same as impairing from BOD damage, but you can recover one partial impairment in 24 divided by REC hours. So Joe Normal could recover a partial impairment in 12 hours, but Bill the Tank (Rec 8) could do so in only three hours. That way combat has the chance - but not the certainty - of reducing your capacity for some hours, but the effect will not last more than a day, unless you have taken multiple "partial impairments" within a short period. This method has the advantage of requiring little book-keeping: you simply note that location X is partially impaired when it happens. It has the disadvantage that it would widen the combat gap between combat monsters with high PD and CON and more fragile characters (that might be an advantage if you want to encourage character specialization)

 

Alternately, just use the impairing rules, where even minor BOD damage can have a lingering effect. This takes STUN damage out of the equation, but will mean that multiple combats in a short space of time becomes very dangerous.

 

Not specific to Markdoc's suggestions, any of which may be a suitable fix for what you're looking for, but I think it's important to step back and examine the game effects. Any system such as that suggested above effectively weakens the player characters.

 

Now, you can say it applies equally to PC and NPC alike, so it weakens everyone equally, but that's really not true in practice. When the combat is over, do the lingering effects hamper the NPC's or the PC's? Well, the PC's are certainly hampered - that was the point of the whole exercise, right? But the NPC's really aren't.

 

Sure, they're down "long term Stun", or impaired, or whatever, just like the PC's. But, unlike the PC's, they won't be moving on to the next encounter. It's a very unusual occurence when we will be seeing those NPC's again in a hurry. Often, we'll never see them again. The next adversaries the PC's encounter will once again be fresh as a daisy, not tired from a previous encounter - or will you make random checks to see if the Orc War Party has previously encountered another human adventuring party today, and is limping along with the aftereffects of that battle?

 

That's not to say "don't make such a change". On the contrary, if it's right for your game, make the change. But being aware of this issue helps in both assessing whether the change will be a good one and, perhaps, in understanding why players don't see the change in the same positive light the GM might.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

I absolutely hate ideas like this. If you want to make things tougher on pc's, hey, YOU ARE THE GOD, er GM, that controls the world. Rules that don't equally impact pc's and npc's are especially egregious as far as I'm concerned. How frequently are the pc's likely to encounter npc's who've already been in multiple fights so that they're taking penalties?

 

If you as the GM can't figure out some way to keep your players from running roughshod over their opponents and you want to come up with some arbitrary system to keep them from fighting multiple times in a day, try this one.

 

You: If you guys get into another fight today you're going to be at hideous unrevealed penalties. You'll usually miss and do reduced damage. Oh, and when you get to that fork in the road turn left. And give the tavernkeeper 100 gold. And that wand I gave you last week is too powerful so it's out of charges. Have fun playing your characters in this unique shared environment.

[nexus]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Nekkidcarpenter: I think you're being way to harsh. There's nothing wrong with wanting a griittier, deadlier feel to a setting and lessening the desirability of mulitple combats in a short rime. Its a far cry from the sort of railroading described in the last post. The OP never said he wouldn't tell the players the House rules before they made up their characters or started to play or dictating what choices they should make, arbitrarily removing artifact or anything like that. The objective he's trying to acheive is to enforce a specfic mood with the rules not just gimp the PCs for the heck of it. If you were translating something like the Warhammer setting into Hero, you might have want to do something similar, for instance. The point about NPCs being less affected by these types of rules is a valid one and should be taken into account but it doesn't imply malicious intent on the part of the OP.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Also, remember that every time you take a Body, you lose a Stun too, that you cant regain till that Body is healed.

 

Ive played in MANY Hero Fantasy campaigns, and with LTE and awareness of the Stun and Body connection, as well as Impairing and Disabling rules, even fighter-types worry about multiple encounters.

 

 

The rule is that whilst you take 1 stun per Body taken you CAN heal the stun back before healing the Body. I ignore that rule.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Right. We want a combat that has long term but not lethal consequences, right?

 

OK, stealing from some of the excellent ideas I've seen in this thread, how about this...

 

For each point of Body, or each 5 points of Stun damage you take (from a single hit), or each time you exceed half your REC in a single END expenditure, you take a point of Accumulated Exhaustion (AE).

 

AE recovers at the GM's discretion, but as a guideline, should recover fully after a good night's sleep, or partially after a rest or a meal.

 

The effect of AE is that you cannot fully recover your stun or end whilst you have any exhaustion damage. Your Current Maximum Stun (CMS) is Normal Maximum Stun (NMS)-AE. A similar calculation is done with END.

 

In the first combat of the day, AE is likely to be a negligible factor, but by the end of the day it will really start to bite if you have got into a lot of scrapes.

 

Also, because END expenditure can contribute to AE, those characters who burn a lot at once (oftem that will be spell casters and those who insist on regularly pushing their abilities) will also suffer.

 

You can tweak the levels (1 AE per 3 STUN, or per 7 or whatever, 1 AE if you exceed your REC in a single expenditure, or if yuo exceed your REC in a turn) but it should address all the points int he first post.

 

I think.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

What if AE reduced not only STUN and END, but also REC? Extrapolating from Sean's example, perhaps STUN and END max are reduced by AE, and REC is reduced by 1/5 AE. Now the longer you go, the harder it is to recover future expenditures of END and STUN, as well as capping your recovery at a lower level. IOW, you tire faster.

[nexus]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

The rule is that whilst you take 1 stun per Body taken you CAN heal the stun back before healing the Body. I ignore that rule.

 

You ignore that you take 1 stun per body taken or that you can can recover the stun before the body is healed? I can see with either way.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

that is also pretty neat. there are a lot of really good ideas here in this thread, many of which i may put into some sort of form for several of my heroic games. good stuff, good stuff.

[nexus]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

A bit off topic but if the OP is worried about mages and making them pay more points than they have too, he could say as a House rule that mages have a seperate pool of Endurance (call it Mana or Essence or something) as a new secondary characteristic and it recovers slowly. All character might have it but only trained magic users can access it (either because of a Talent, Skills or just buying Spells). That also opens up sacrifical magic having a definite mechanical reason to exist, it allows you to steal someone elses magical essence for big spells. Dividing the costs of spells by some factor might help as well.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

Why not just impose a "Long Term STUN" rule that works exactly the same way as the Long Term END rule, only with STUN instead? Use the LTE chart as-is, but apply it to STUN instead.

 

Add up the total amount of STUN taken each turn and divide that by your REC. Look up that number on the chart to see how much LTS you've taken. You gain back your REC in LTS per day, or per 5 hours if resting.

 

For example, if you have 10 REC, and you take 35 STUN in one turn, that's over 3x, so you lose 2 LTS for that turn. That's 2 STUN that you can't get back through normal Recoveries.

 

Very simple.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Heroic Endurance and Stun

 

This could be rather clunky but what if you divided stun into two flavours - light, the stuff you can shake off easily and heavy, the stuff that really slows you down or makes you groggy. Split stun damage between these two depending upon the weapon used, a two handed mace is going to do more heavy stun than a cosh. You only get a rec for heavy stun every hour. Endurance can not be recovered to a level that is higher than stun, (unless stun is at full).

Just a thought.