Peregrine Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 As I have previously posted (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1261239&postcount=97) I have always wondered why the most successful super soldier program in the CU United States (and the whole CU Earth, for that matter) was turned over exclusively to a civilian law enforcement organization and it's use denied to the military, especially since CU canon shows all previous super soldier programs being military. However, I recently realized that the answer to the question was staring me in the face. What is the "critical weakness" of all Avengers (and thus of all personnel enhanced to similar levels by Cyberline)? Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x STUN Poisons/Toxins Which means that any soldier so enhanced would be an instant casualty on a battlefield where chemical weapons were used. It wouldn't even have to be lethal chemicals; incapacitating chemicals (even tear gas) would be sufficient to eliminate the Cyberline-enhanced personnel as effective combatants, or at least render them less effective by forcing them to move elsewhere. Battlefield opponents without their own super-soldiers to counter the Cyberline troops would then have a direct incentive to use chemical weapons more freely - and one of the well-known characteristics of chemical weapons is their relatively low cost to procure and use. While the normal hazards of doing so are likewise well-known, given the increased threat presented by Cyberline-enhanced units on the battlefield the risk equation changes drastically. And the increased use of chemical weapons would put non-enhanced troops at higher battlefield risk as well. So I'm (partially) satisfied. Whatever the other factors involved in limiting the number of Cyberline enhanced personnel in service (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259430&postcount=87), the vulnerability to chemical weapons keeps them off of the battlefield. In fact, the creation of PRIMUS could be seen as a way to utilize the Cyberline process because it was unsuitable for battlefield deployment. (Might not keep them out of Special Ops, though; especially since the typical SpecOps budget would allow for advanced protective gear that a battlefield soldier might not be assigned. Plus, most SpecOps missions are much less likely to run in to chemical weapons being used against them. This is not conjecture, but the experience of most modern SpecOps units, though it certainly varies from unit to unit and across time.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved Not a bad theory, but the vulnerability could still be worked around. With proper equipment, a military unit attacked with chemical weapons is expected to suffer about 2% casualties, mostly from "operator error". So a unit of Cyberline soldiers would be expected to suffer about 3%...not a show-stopper. Although it could be argued that the protective gear would hamper the Cyberline soldiers enough that their advantage over unenhanced soldiers would be reduced to the point of infeasibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved Hmmm...that could be it, or (and bear with me a second here) it could just be that its a detail from a superheroic roleplaying game that is not intended to be very realistic or taken very seriously, and youre just overthinking it. 50 / 50? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved You know it's a long-standing geek tradition to fill in the fine points so that a story makes more sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted August 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved Hmmm...that could be it, or (and bear with me a second here) it could just be that its a detail from a superheroic roleplaying game that is not intended to be very realistic or taken very seriously, and youre just overthinking it. 50 / 50? True. But it was something that always bothered me, because it seemed out of place. So I picked at it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted August 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved Not a bad theory, but the vulnerability could still be worked around. With proper equipment, a military unit attacked with chemical weapons is expected to suffer about 2% casualties, mostly from "operator error". So a unit of Cyberline soldiers would be expected to suffer about 3%...not a show-stopper. Although it could be argued that the protective gear would hamper the Cyberline soldiers enough that their advantage over unenhanced soldiers would be reduced to the point of infeasibility. To the first point, the casualty expectation (as I recall from my own Army days a decade ago) is based on a reasonable expectation of intelligence of the enemy's availability and use of chemicals, providing warning and allowing troops time to don protective gear (or operate in said gear in anticipation of chemical use). Deployment of Cyberline-enhanced troops would increase the likelihood of an enemy using chemicals as an inexpensive countermeasure and would trigger near-constant use of protective gear. To the second point, working in protective gear (and I speak from experience gained a decade ago) for long periods of time seriously degrades individual and unit efficiency. It's hot (and bulky); technological measures to counter the heat issue have been developed and deployed RW, but they are expensive. Thus, in any theater where Cyberline-enhanced troops were deployed, all troops would have to operate in protective gear a higher percentage of the time. While the cost of Cyberline-enhanced troops might justify investing in the heat-countering technologies for them, the non-enhanced troops would likely not be so equipped; their efficiency would degrade more rapidly. Or, the cost to operate non-enhanced troops in conjunction with enhanced troops would go up rapidly, as the non-enhanced troops would have the same need for the heat-countering gear to maintain efficiency while in protective gear. Supertech methods to counter the above issues would simply drive the cost up further. The main point that came to my mind was that the military would see the vulnerability in the Cyberline project report and immediately reject the enhancement program so as to avoid the whole issue completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved To the first point' date=' the casualty expectation (as I recall from my own Army days a decade ago) is based on a reasonable expectation of intelligence of the enemy's availability and use of chemicals, providing warning and allowing troops time to don protective gear (or operate in said gear in anticipation of chemical use). Deployment of Cyberline-enhanced troops would increase the likelihood of an enemy using chemicals as an inexpensive countermeasure and would trigger near-constant use of protective gear. [/quote'] Maybe so. Although most countries don't have a cache of weaponized chemicals these days. It wouldn't be an issue in a rapid response situation, although it could be in a more drawn-out conflict. Although it could be argued that the protective gear would hamper the Cyberline soldiers enough that their advantage over unenhanced soldiers would be reduced to the point of infeasibility. To the second point' date=' working in protective gear (and I speak from experience gained a decade ago) for long periods of time seriously degrades individual and unit efficiency. It's [i']hot [/i](and bulky); technological measures to counter the heat issue have been developed and deployed RW, but they are expensive. Thus, in any theater where Cyberline-enhanced troops were deployed, all troops would have to operate in protective gear a higher percentage of the time. While the cost of Cyberline-enhanced troops might justify investing in the heat-countering technologies for them, the non-enhanced troops would likely not be so equipped; their efficiency would degrade more rapidly. Or, the cost to operate non-enhanced troops in conjunction with enhanced troops would go up rapidly, as the non-enhanced troops would have the same need for the heat-countering gear to maintain efficiency while in protective gear. Supertech methods to counter the above issues would simply drive the cost up further. And thus, it has... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted August 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved Maybe so. Although most countries don't have a cache of weaponized chemicals these days. It wouldn't be an issue in a rapid response situation' date=' although it could be in a more drawn-out conflict.[/quote'] If the U.S. had Cyberline-enhanced troops, that would likely change; again, because those weapons would be cheap equalizers against the U.S. super soldier units. *shrug* Maybe it's not the silver bullet I thought it was, but it would certainly complicate military planning to have to compensate for that vulnerability in deploying Cyberline-enhanced troops, and the resulting incentive it would provide to any potential enemy to maintain and be prepared to use chemical weapons to counter the U.S. supertroops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead guy on tab Posted August 6, 2007 Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved Another possibility is that the use of paranormals in military conflict is outlawed by international treaty. Nations could consider paranormals the equivalent of nuclear weapons and head down the path towards MAD. Consequently, international arms treaties include paranormals. Paranormally enhanced soldiers could be included in those treaties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted August 7, 2007 Report Share Posted August 7, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved Difficult to make credible, though. If your staying at all within genre, the various malefactors in the world will be cheating like mad on any such rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Liberty Posted August 7, 2007 Report Share Posted August 7, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved And why are we assuming that the US military doesn't have its own cadre of Cyberlined super-soldiers? It's not publicized, of course. Essentially a couple of SEALS or Ranger or whatever units all juiced up and ready to go. Veterans of these units might well move on to working for PRIMUS, under an NDA to not tell anyone they work with where they first got their drugs and training. As long as everything is secret, the potential opposition won't be sitting on tear gas countermeasures. Keep in mind that not a lot of people can safely take the Cyberline treatments. Between a couple of special ops outfits and PRIMUS, the potential users are probably pretty much covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted August 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved And why are we assuming that the US military doesn't have its own cadre of Cyberlined super-soldiers? It's not publicized, of course. Essentially a couple of SEALS or Ranger or whatever units all juiced up and ready to go. Veterans of these units might well move on to working for PRIMUS, under an NDA to not tell anyone they work with where they first got their drugs and training. As long as everything is secret, the potential opposition won't be sitting on tear gas countermeasures. Keep in mind that not a lot of people can safely take the Cyberline treatments. Between a couple of special ops outfits and PRIMUS, the potential users are probably pretty much covered. Actually, I addressed the issue of limited numbers of Cyberline compatibles in the second link I posted initially. (Repeated here for your convenience.) And it is definitely possible that the U.S. SpecOps community has Cyberline-enhanced teams - that is the most plausible deployment of Cyberline for the military, in fact. But past canon has (at minimum) strongly implied that PRIMUS has a monopoly on Cyberline-enhanced personnel, which is the part that doesn't quite sit right with me. Still (as I posted in the first link, here), there are other plausible reasons for PRIMUS to have said monopoly; the vulnerability gets added to the list. On the other hand, a Cyberline-enhanced SpecOps team is still possible, even if the monopoly had to be "creatively sidestepped" in order to get the team staffed. On the gripping hand, Cyberline is not necessarily a static program; nor is it certain that military supersoldier programs have been discontinued post-Cyberline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved A 1 1/2x STUN Vulnerability to poisons/toxins isnt that much of a deal-killer, game mechanics wise, if the super-soldiers are sufficiently superior to regular soldiers. If they have 50% more STUN to start with, then the 1 1/2x STUN Vulnerability means they are only -as- vulnerable to poisons/toxins as a regular soldier. Example : A regular soldier has 20 STUN A super soldier has 30 STUN Both take a 6D6 NND poison gas attack, which rolls average : 21 STUN. The regular soldier takes 21 STUN and ends up at -1 STUN. The super soldier takes 31 STUN and ends up at -1 STUN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved The main point that came to my mind was that the military would see the vulnerability in the Cyberline project report and immediately reject the enhancement program so as to avoid the whole issue completely. I think the military proper got burned with too many biological enhancement experiments that produced lunatics and turned to power armour as a safer alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved I think the military proper got burned with too many biological enhancement experiments that produced lunatics and turned to power armour as a safer alternative. when, oh when will they see the madness in these hairbrained schemes and start arming schoolgirls with skimpy battle bikinis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Legs Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved when' date=' oh when will they see the madness in these hairbrained schemes and start arming schoolgirls with skimpy battle bikinis?[/quote'] I think I don't wanna know. j/k Cool idea really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Legs Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved Hmmm...that could be it, or (and bear with me a second here) it could just be that its a detail from a superheroic roleplaying game that is not intended to be very realistic or taken very seriously, and youre just overthinking it. 50 / 50? Oh well, my screen needed washing anyways. Seriously, that was soooo funny. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted August 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Re: PRIMUS - A Mystery Solved *shrug* I still have a fondness for the mental image of the military brass hearing "vulnerability to chemicals" and them going "Rejected". The nagain, I may just be falling prey to the geek tendency to refuse to let go of a pet theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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