Can you choose not to Regenerate?

[Manic Typist]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

The build allows you to turn it off, but the official build for regeneration requires that you include 'self only'.

 

Mind you I'm not a fan of the official build, and not just for that reason - I'm still maintaining that 'Persistent' does not do what everyone seems to think that it does, and the power requires 'Continuous' as well. I appreciate that I am a one man band on this.

 

Perhaps you could start a thread on it, because I am genuinely curious as to what you think they do, and what you think others think, etc.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

OK, so what you are saying is that we have another situation where putting a Limitation on a power is giving a power an Advantage. Now putting self only on an Attack Power makes it a 0 Phase Action?

 

This would seem to me to imply that all Attack Actions would therefore be able to be used as 0 Phase actions as long as the character is targeting themselves. (Following the logic that a Limitation can not give Advantages, if that should seem to be the case the possibility of the Advantage exists at no cost without the Limitation ref: MultiPower Attacks and Linked.) So a character could apply an Aid to themself at the top of a phase (0 Phase action: activating a power, no Attack Roll=no Attack Action), half move to an ally, use the same Aid on them ending my action with the first Attack Action. This implies that all Instant Powers are inherently Continous when targeting the character that bought the power.

 

 

No, If a power still has the potential to be used as an attack then it will still take a 1/2 phase to use on self. Only the removal of the ability to target others and the resulting lack of any potential attack action can change it to a 0 phase action.

 

It's like the reverse situation that exists when you build a constant power like Flight or Invisibility with UBO or UAA. The details of the UBO Advantage determines how many people including the power's owner can use at the same time. Once UAA is added as and Advantage the power can no longer be used by the owner on himself and automatically takes a half phase to use and essentially acts as an instant power. The Continuous Advantage would have to be added to it to affect the same target on consecutive phases without additional attack rolls.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

The only requirement for Persistent I'm aware of is the Power must cost 0 END.

 

Also under Duration Advantages under Persistent is says "Instant or Constant" meaning one or the other, not must be Constant first. No inference there at all. It can go from Instant to Persistent without ever needing to be Constant.

 

By that argument, I can make EB Persistent without adding Continuous. After all, if the only requirement is to have 0 END, something like being Constant or Continuous won't matter for any Power. There is nothing in the description of Persistent at says otherwise.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

The power works each phase that the owner pays END and is a 0 phase action since no attack roll is necessary.

 

Where is this rule stated? I've looked and cannot find anything that says applying a Limitation (specifically Self Only) to a Power makes it activate as a 0 Phase.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

By that argument' date=' I can make EB Persistent without adding Continuous. After all, if the only requirement is to have 0 END, something like being Constant or Continuous won't matter for [i']any[/i] Power. There is nothing in the description of Persistent at says otherwise.

 

Yes, as a matter of fact you can.

 

It will be on between segments (still visible to whichever Senses you've chosen); Require an Attack Roll every Phase it's used; Require an Attack Action every Phase to maintain.

 

Not very useful really. But technically Rules Legal.

[caris]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Yes, as a matter of fact you can.

 

It will be on between segments (still visible to whichever Senses you've chosen); Require an Attack Roll every Phase it's used; Require an Attack Action every Phase to maintain.

 

Not very useful really. But technically Rules Legal.

 

Until you add, AOE on it, since than it will be active in the target area between Phases, and affect (sorry, effect) anyone that enters the area.

 

It will still get an attack roll against the target (granted at OCV 0) every Phase even if the character with the Power is Unconcious.

 

There is a reason why the rules recommend not allowing Persistent to be applied to Attack Powers.

[caris]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

No' date=' If a power still has the potential to be used as an attack then it will still take a 1/2 phase to use on self. Only the removal of the ability to target others and the resulting lack of any potential attack action can change it to a 0 phase action.[/quote']

 

Ok, where do the rules say that targeting yourself turns an Attack Action into one of the non-attack actions?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Yes, as a matter of fact you can.

 

It will be on between segments (still visible to whichever Senses you've chosen); Require an Attack Roll every Phase it's used; Require an Attack Action every Phase to maintain.

 

Not very useful really. But technically Rules Legal.

 

That doesn't make any sense. How can a Power that requires you to use an Attack Action to maintain be Persistent?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

That doesn't make any sense. How can a Power that requires you to use an Attack Action to maintain be Persistent?

 

Because it's an Attack Power.

 

Persistent just means "On until consciously turned off."

 

I didn't say Persistent Energy Blast was a good idea, made any sense, or was useful. I said it was Rules Legal.

 

There's lots of Rule Legal stuff that either a) shouldn't be done or just makes no useful sense.

 

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. The rules are ultimately there for our benefit, the more options the more benefits we can reap, not all options are equally useful.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

I thin the Extra Time Limitation is weird and dodgey as all get out. But it doesn't bother me like it bothers others.

 

I think your Instant/Constant/Persistent argument holds less water than a sieve and is even more suspect that the above mentioned Extra Time Limitation.

 

The rules aren't a strait jacket. Like English mutilate as needed.

 

I've been thinking about this today, and I am pretty sure I can get a lot of water to stay in that seive, unless floppy thinking can tell me otherwise, but, as this is becomeing thread hijaquage (see I can mutilate the language with the best of them) I will, as Manic Typist sugegsted, start a new thread.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Where is this rule stated? I've looked and cannot find anything that says applying a Limitation (specifically Self Only) to a Power makes it activate as a 0 Phase.

 

Ok' date=' where do the rules say that targeting yourself turns an Attack Action into one of the non-attack actions?[/quote']

 

These are really 2 parts of the same question. Are you guys actually implying that a power that can only target self should require an attack action? That's the only other option and it makes even less sense to me.

 

Neither of these rules are clearly stated as such but are certainly implied. This question is really getting into "Let's ask Steve" territory but I doubt we'll get a definitive answer since it is such a narrow subset of the rules as a whole.

[caris]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

These are really 2 parts of the same question. Are you guys actually implying that a power that can only target self should require an attack action? That's the only other option and it makes even less sense to me.

 

Neither of these rules are clearly stated as such but are certainly implied. This question is really getting into "Let's ask Steve" territory but I doubt we'll get a definitive answer since it is such a narrow subset of the rules as a whole.

 

What is so hard to understand? We are talking about Powers marked as Attack Actions in the rules. I generally waive the Attack Roll, if you target yourself, but it still is a Half-Phase Action that ends your phase if you use an Attack Power on yourself. Self-only wouldn't change that.

 

Feel free to ask Steve, and I will accept that it is "official" just has not made it into a book and house rule it away, but at the moment, this sounds like you and several others have a common house rule to deal with an area the rules don't cover fully.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Because it's an Attack Power.

 

Persistent just means "On until consciously turned off."

 

I didn't say Persistent Energy Blast was a good idea, made any sense, or was useful. I said it was Rules Legal.

 

There's lots of Rule Legal stuff that either a) shouldn't be done or just makes no useful sense.

 

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. The rules are ultimately there for our benefit, the more options the more benefits we can reap, not all options are equally useful.

 

I don't believe this is a case of "just because you can" because I firmly believe you can't. Persistent does not mean "on until consciously turned off." It means "on with out conscious control or activity form the character, as in staying on even though he's stunned or unconscious." To me, this means you can't have a Power which requires an attack action be Persistent. Otherwise you'd be allowed to continue making attacks versus people while unconscious.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

These are really 2 parts of the same question. Are you guys actually implying that a power that can only target self should require an attack action? That's the only other option and it makes even less sense to me.

No. I'm plainly stating a power that normally requires an attack action will still require an attack action if you apply the Self Only Limitation to it.

 

Neither of these rules are clearly stated as such but are certainly implied. This question is really getting into "Let's ask Steve" territory but I doubt we'll get a definitive answer since it is such a narrow subset of the rules as a whole.

Oh, I think we can get a definitive answer out of him for this one. It's a fairly yes/no type question that isn't ready answered by the core rulebook and doesn't involve design philosophy.

 

Of course, we could still end up with a "if the GM allows it" responses, but I hope not.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

I don't believe this is a case of "just because you can" because I firmly believe you can't. Persistent does not mean "on until consciously turned off." It means "on with out conscious control or activity form the character' date=' as in staying on even though he's stunned or unconscious." To me, this means you can't have a Power which requires an attack action be Persistent. Otherwise you'd be allowed to continue making attacks versus people while unconscious.[/quote']

 

That's part of what it's for. When an alien vomits acid all over some poor spacefarer, the acid doesn't stop burning because the spacefarer blasts the alien into its component atoms.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

I don't believe this is a case of "just because you can" because I firmly believe you can't. Persistent does not mean "on until consciously turned off." It means "on with out conscious control or activity form the character' date=' as in staying on even though he's stunned or unconscious." To me, this means you can't have a Power which requires an attack action be Persistent. Otherwise you'd be allowed to continue making attacks versus people while unconscious.[/quote']

 

Well you could certainly acheive that with 'Uncontrolled', but to stick to the point, I'd contend that you need 'Continuous' to make an attack action keep doing damage, and if you then added 'Persistent, the power would keep going even if the person with the power was KO'd*. they could turn it off deliberately, or be forced to, but if that was not an option, the only way to stop the damage would be to kill them. Oh, or going out of the range of the power should do it too. Oh, and what was I thinking - persistent still needs line of sight.

 

Of course, if you HAD bought it with 'Uncontrolled' then even that would not work. That's how I'd do the 'alien acid' attack - but uncontrolled requires a way to stop it which should be reasonably common or reasonably obvious.

 

Of course I very much doubt I'd ALLOW a continuous 0 END persistent attack, but it is a legal construct. If you build an alien acid spitter this way, you could stop the acid by walking round a corner.

 

That's silly.

 

There is never any point in making something uncontroleld AND peristent that I can see.

 

 

 

*Subject to being able to maintain line of sight to the target whilst unconscious. Hey, it COULD happen.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Further information: In Enchanted items, on page 172, the Paladin's Sacred Sword has a Damage Shield that has 0 END, Continuous, AND Persistant.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

I don't believe this is a case of "just because you can" because I firmly believe you can't. Persistent does not mean "on until consciously turned off." It means "on with out conscious control or activity form the character' date=' as in staying on even though he's stunned or unconscious." To me, this means you can't have a Power which requires an attack action be Persistent. Otherwise you'd be allowed to continue making attacks versus people while unconscious.[/quote']

 

Still doesn't negate the fact that Persistent can be placed directly on an Instant Power.

 

Aid for example. Or how about Mental Illusions.

 

I'm sorry it bothers you - but it's right there In The Rules. The only requirement to add Persistent is the Power must cost 0 END. Whether it be Instant or Constant.

 

This is not a question of inference or interpretation. Under Persistent it SAYS "Instant or Constant"

 

Take up with Steve if you think it's a typo. Beyond that - you're simply wrong in stating Instant cannot be made Persistent directly.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Still doesn't negate the fact that Persistent can be placed directly on an Instant Power.

 

Aid for example. Or how about Mental Illusions.

 

I'm sorry it bothers you - but it's right there In The Rules. The only requirement to add Persistent is the Power must cost 0 END. Whether it be Instant or Constant.

 

This is not a question of inference or interpretation. Under Persistent it SAYS "Instant or Constant"

 

Take up with Steve if you think it's a typo. Beyond that - you're simply wrong in stating Instant cannot be made Persistent directly.

 

I'm not debating the rules, I'm debating this interpretation of them. I have gotten clarification from Steve Long concerning Self Only making a Power which normally requires an Attack Action only require a 0 Phase and it does not. He even mentions that while a GM an certainly waive this and allow it, it would be unbalancing.

 

What I'd like is some rules or guidelines as to what Instant Powers it can apply to and when, or if it's just there because you can put Continuous on an Instant Power to make it effectively Constant. I'll clarify that with Steve Long as well I guess.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Just thought I'd mention that I've started a thread about constant and persistent. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1405892&posted=1#post1405892

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Just thought I'd mention I replied to a thread about constant and persistent:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1406146&posted=1#post1406146

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

I'm not debating the rules, I'm debating this interpretation of them. I have gotten clarification from Steve Long concerning Self Only making a Power which normally requires an Attack Action only require a 0 Phase and it does not. He even mentions that while a GM an certainly waive this and allow it, it would be unbalancing.

 

What I'd like is some rules or guidelines as to what Instant Powers it can apply to and when, or if it's just there because you can put Continuous on an Instant Power to make it effectively Constant. I'll clarify that with Steve Long as well I guess.

 

The Attack Action/0 Phase bit I agree on, it does not remove the Attack Action bit. So you've got no argument from me there.