Can you choose not to Regenerate?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

....and if you can do that' date=' without needing continuous, for an instant power, why would you ever need 'continuous' if 'persistent+0 END' does all that an oh-so-much-more?[/quote']

 

As was said - Non-Self-Targeting Instant Powers.

 

Persistent can't be used on Powers targeting others. That's what Continuous is For; the main difference being Continuous adds the ability to no longer require Attack Rolls every Phase to affect the Target.

 

Healing; Self Only has no Attack Roll, Continuous would be redundant.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Oddly, 'healing' is an adjustment power and requires a hit roll, even (although this would almost always be waived) against yourself. The 'self only' limitation does not help here - that is simlpy a restriction on range.

 

So we are waiving the roll to hit, perhaps, but it is still an attack action and requires a roll to hit, so if that is the criteria for powers that have to take 'continuous' instead of persistent (and 0 END), it is not going to work.

 

If dispensing with an attack roll is all you need then you can build a damage shield with 0 END Persistent instead of continuous - a much better bet 95% of the time (especially as most damage shields will be taking some level of reduced END anyway) - as that (even though an attack power) really does not require a roll to hit.

 

What about 0 range AoE powers? Presumably I can get away with it then too? Excellent.

 

That would be odd, because the ONLY example I've ever found (and I'm sure there must be more, I have just never found them) of persistent being used in this context is the already incredibly dodgy* 'official' build for regeneration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*How, for instance, are we getting round needing a +1 1/2 ADVANTAGE: decreased reuse duration (1 turn) - why with a LIMITATION -1 1/4: extra time - takes a whole turn. I wonder if I can use a similar cunning mechanic on my other adjustment power builds?

 

Cool.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

5ER p101.

 

The system differentiates between Self and No Range - your comparison is invalidated.

 

Looking at the intent of Self Only - it removes the need for an Attack Roll completely, not handwaving it as "you hit" but REMOVES. All inherently Self Only powers do not have an Attack Roll required. Removing the ability to affect others also removes the Attack Roll aspect.

 

No Attack Roll, no Continuous.

 

It seems very cut and clear to me.

 

Damage Shields are not Self Only, they are No Range - as stated the system differentiates the two concepts very clearly and thus it would require Continuous because it is merely No Range, not Self Only.

 

FRED p70 also covers the Range of Powers. It mentions both concepts separately. While not going into as long a discussion on it, I'm sure the FAQ has the same text somewhere in it.

[JmOz]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

The build allows you to turn it off, but the official build for regeneration requires that you include 'self only'.

 

Mind you I'm not a fan of the official build, and not just for that reason - I'm still maintaining that 'Persistent' does not do what everyone seems to think that it does, and the power requires 'Continuous' as well. I appreciate that I am a one man band on this.

 

Then let us be a duet

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

5ER p101.

 

The system differentiates between Self and No Range - your comparison is invalidated.

 

Looking at the intent of Self Only - it removes the need for an Attack Roll completely, not handwaving it as "you hit" but REMOVES. All inherently Self Only powers do not have an Attack Roll required. Removing the ability to affect others also removes the Attack Roll aspect.

 

No Attack Roll, no Continuous.

 

It seems very cut and clear to me.

 

Can you give me a line and column reference because I have read it several times and cannot see it saying that. it maught SEEM clear cut, but it doesn't actually say that.

 

Anyway, look at the previous page - 100. 'Converting Persistent powers to constant powers'.

 

Basically some limtiations - like 'costs END'- convert a PERSISTENT power to a CONSTANT one. That would mean that being constant is a necessary precursor to persistent. So, something is screwy somewhere, because the definitions and useages are not consistent.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Can you give me a line and column reference because I have read it several times and cannot see it saying that. it maught SEEM clear cut, but it doesn't actually say that.

 

Anyway, look at the previous page - 100. 'Converting Persistent powers to constant powers'.

 

Basically some limtiations - like 'costs END'- convert a PERSISTENT power to a CONSTANT one. That would mean that being constant is a necessary precursor to persistent. So, something is screwy somewhere, because the definitions and useages are not consistent.

 

Sadly, it doesn't spell it out. However, since not inherently Self Only Power in the game has an Attack Roll involved I'm going infer that Powers with the Self Only Limitation also don't have Attack Roles.

 

And I don't believe there's a chain of Duration like you're inferring.

It doesn't go Instant -> Constant -> Persistent. Those are simply the three states of a Powers Duration.

 

Persistent Powers cannot cost END.

Instant and Constant may or may not cost END.

 

In fact, Constant + Uncontrolled effectively creates a Persistent Attack Power. (or using other terminology it creates a Persistent non-Self Only Power).

 

Personally, I think you are not only over thinking the problem, but are far to rigid in your interpretation of things.

 

Persistent: 0 END cost; Character must act to turn on & off

Constant: Character must act to maintain, Attack Roll only required initially.

 

 

You can't make an Energy Blast Persistent; You don't need Constant on Self Only Powers.

[pinecone]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

I'll admit it. I am feeling lazy... or is it tired?

 

Anyway, I could probably dig in the book to find this, I reckon, but I'm guessing "somebody already knows."

 

Okay so here's the power... straight-up 5th ed Healing/Regeneration:

 

Regeneration 3 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2)

 

So, if I have this power, can I choose not to regenerate when Post-Segment 12 rolls along? If not, is there a way to build Regeneration so you can control it when you are conscious? (Obviously, I wouldn't be able to do anything about it when he's unconscious.)

 

I've got a player that wants to hide this ability sometimes.

 

Normally I'd think no...but if it does not have Always on...I'd likely let it slide...with an Ego roll...otherwise that would suggest he has to activate it, and that would not work when knocked out....so you can concentrate and supress it, the same way you can hold your breath....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

After checking and double checking the rules, I can't find where it's universally legal to place Persistent on a Self targeted Instant Power without also placing Continuous. There is absolutely no reference for this at all, anywhere I can find it. I have not yet checked the online FAQ, however, so it may be there.

 

Basically, Healing says that it requires an Attack Action to use, but the GM may waive the Attack Roll when used on willing targets. It is my understanding that if you are not buying the Optional version called Regeneration, and just buy Healing BODY, Self Only, you must still use an Attack Action to use the Power to heal yourself.

 

The only supporting evidence I can find is the word "Instant" in the description of the Persistent Advantage and a surprising lack of any explanation of which Instant Powers are eligible, and the fact Continuous does not appear in the suggested Optional version of Healing called Regeneration.

 

I belief the Persistent is OK on Self Only Instant Powers is an assumption and nothing more. It may very well be a correct assumption, but it is an assumption (unless the FAQ says otherwise). Of course, it seems like it's a pretty good guideline. If so, what other Self Only targeting Instant Powers might it apply to other than the Option version of Healing called Regeneration?

[Vondy]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Oddly, 'healing' is an adjustment power and requires a hit roll, even (although this would almost always be waived) against yourself. The 'self only' limitation does not help here - that is simlpy a restriction on range.

 

If, by definition, "self-only" cannot affect others then it cannot take the continuous advantage.

 

There is a clear difference between who the power can effect and how far the power can go.

 

The system has defined parameters for these applications that can only be redefined on a house-rule level.

 

We aren't discussing house rules. You are churning semantics that do not apply.

[Vondy]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

As for the original question, the answer is largely dependent of FX.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

After checking and double checking the rules, I can't find where it's universally legal to place Persistent on a Self targeted Instant Power without also placing Continuous. There is absolutely no reference for this at all, anywhere I can find it. I have not yet checked the online FAQ, however, so it may be there.

 

Basically, Healing says that it requires an Attack Action to use, but the GM may waive the Attack Roll when used on willing targets. It is my understanding that if you are not buying the Optional version called Regeneration, and just buy Healing BODY, Self Only, you must still use an Attack Action to use the Power to heal yourself.

 

The only supporting evidence I can find is the word "Instant" in the description of the Persistent Advantage and a surprising lack of any explanation of which Instant Powers are eligible, and the fact Continuous does not appear in the suggested Optional version of Healing called Regeneration.

 

I belief the Persistent is OK on Self Only Instant Powers is an assumption and nothing more. It may very well be a correct assumption, but it is an assumption (unless the FAQ says otherwise). Of course, it seems like it's a pretty good guideline. If so, what other Self Only targeting Instant Powers might it apply to other than the Option version of Healing called Regeneration?

 

The only requirement for Persistent I'm aware of is the Power must cost 0 END.

 

Also under Duration Advantages under Persistent is says "Instant or Constant" meaning one or the other, not must be Constant first. No inference there at all. It can go from Instant to Persistent without ever needing to be Constant.

[Vondy]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

The only requirement for Persistent I'm aware of is the Power must cost 0 END.

 

Yup.

[caris]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

If' date=' by definition, "self-only" cannot affect others then it cannot take the continuous advantage.[/quote']

 

OK, than how does one make a "self-only" power based off an Instant power that is Constant, but not Persistent?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

If, by definition, "self-only" cannot affect others then it cannot take the continuous advantage.

 

There is a clear difference between who the power can effect and how far the power can go.

 

The system has defined parameters for these applications that can only be redefined on a house-rule level.

 

We aren't discussing house rules. You are churning semantics that do not apply.

 

'Self only' is both a target and range parameter, according to the system. Nothing else. It does not waive any other rule (for instance the need to roll to hit) automatically. See page 101.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Sadly, it doesn't spell it out. However, since not inherently Self Only Power in the game has an Attack Roll involved I'm going infer that Powers with the Self Only Limitation also don't have Attack Roles.

 

And I don't believe there's a chain of Duration like you're inferring.

It doesn't go Instant -> Constant -> Persistent. Those are simply the three states of a Powers Duration.

 

Persistent Powers cannot cost END.

Instant and Constant may or may not cost END.

 

In fact, Constant + Uncontrolled effectively creates a Persistent Attack Power. (or using other terminology it creates a Persistent non-Self Only Power).

 

Personally, I think you are not only over thinking the problem, but are far to rigid in your interpretation of things.

 

Persistent: 0 END cost; Character must act to turn on & off

Constant: Character must act to maintain, Attack Roll only required initially.

 

 

You can't make an Energy Blast Persistent; You don't need Constant on Self Only Powers.

 

Not a matter of being rigid in my interpretation, my friend, rather a matter of not liking the construct (or rather the useage) and arguing against it. You make inferences, I make inferences. We disagree.

 

Continuous + Persistent (and 0 END) is fine BUT the power stops if you go outside range. Uncontrolled stops that and you have the whole thing with frameworks too. The advantages do different things. Uncontrolled is there (to my mind) to allow certain constructs that would otherwise not be available but is very much a 'dangerous' advantage and should ONLY be used for concept powers.

 

Part of my reason for 'picking on' persistent is that this is the only place I can see it is used there and the rest of the build is ridiculously suspect too - what do you say about that?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

'Self only' is both a target and range parameter' date=' according to the system. Nothing else. It does not waive any other rule (for instance the need to roll to hit) automatically. See page 101.[/quote']

 

Ok, you're mentioning the correct page number but not the rule mentioned:

 

Range

HERO System Powers are defined as having one of four Ranges: Self; No Range; Standard Range (5” x Active Points); and Line Of Sight (LOS).

 

Self Powers only affect the character himself, and/or can only be used on/by him. Examples include most Defense Powers, Movement Powers, and Sensory Powers. Generally speaking, characters cannot make these Powers work at Range, nor can they apply the Area Of Effect Advantage to let others use the Power at the same time they do (that requires the Usable On Others Advantage, unless the GM gives permission otherwise).

 

No Range Powers only work, at best, within the hex the character’s currently occupying, or adjacent hexes — in other words, they can only aff ect targets within HTH Combat distance (page 383). This may mean the character has to touch the target of the Power to aff ect him, but not necessarily. Generally speaking, characters can make these Powers work at Range by applying the Ranged (+½) Advantage.

 

If a Power has No Range, the character using it does not have to remain in HTH Combat range with the target to maintain the eff ect — he only has to be in HTH Combat range to use it. Once the Power takes eff ect, the character can distance himself from the target (though in the case of Constant Powers, he still has to maintain Line Of Sight to keep the Power functioning).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

OK' date=' than how does one make a "self-only" power based off an Instant power that is Constant, but not Persistent?[/quote']

 

Easy, take an Instant power that targets others by default and add the Self Only Limitation.

 

example:

20 Dispel 10d6 (30 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) End = 3

 

The power works each phase that the owner pays END and is a 0 phase action since no attack roll is necessary.

Adding the Continuous Advantage would not change this.

 

The disconnect is probably due to the fact that nearly every Instant power that targets others by default has some sort of effect roll built in. Effect rolls are not really constant in the same way as a defense power like Force Field. Plus the system already defines a constant equivalent to the adjustment powers Aid and Drain (Succor and Suppress).

 

However, if you desire a reactionary effect (like defensive powers) which is independent of the character's SPD you could do this with the Trigger Advantage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Hero Designer shows:

 

(Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 76; Revised, page 113, 138, 182, 202)

 

An Adjustment Power which can affect others, such as Aid, may take this Limitation if it can only be used on the character who buys it.

 

Here are the quoted sections:

 

113,

Self Only (-½): An Adjustment Power that can affect others, such as Aid, may take this Limitation if the character who buys it can only use it on himself. A similar Limitation is Others Only (-½), meaning the character who buys the Power can never use it on himself.

 

138,

Self Only (-½): A character may take this Limitation (together with No Range (-½)) to define a form of Change Environment that only applies its combat effects with respect to attempts to affect or perceive him. The Limitation means the Change Environment doesn’t cover an area, only his person. For example, a character might have a “Stealth Suit” that imposes a -4 Sight PER Roll penalty on attempts to see him, or a plane might be built with radarabsorbing materials that impose a -8 PER Roll penalty to perceive it with Radar.

 

Typically, Self Only Change Environment only has a 1” “radius.” If the character or object is larger than human size (such as many vehicles), the CE should have a radius equal in size to the character’s or object’s largest dimension.

 

182,

Self Only (-½): A Force Wall bought with this Limitation only protects the character who creates it. Such Force Walls usually also take the Limitation No Range (-½). The Force Wall functions as normal, meaning the character has to buy Indirect for his STR if he wants to be able to touch or punch people through it without breaking it.

 

202,

Self Only (-1): This simulates a Mental Illusions power a character can only use to change his outward appearance (perhaps making him look like the target’s beloved, a celebrity, or the like).

 

It is my personal belief that pages 138 and 202 are really referring to what should be a custom "Only to affect personal appearance" Limited Power Limitation instead of the Self Only Limitation.

 

Regarding the argument that Self Only does not eliminate the attack roll portion of an otherwise potential attack power take a look at Force Wall. It can be used like an Entangle but doesn't normally require an attack roll when being used for purely defensive actions (maybe one would be required to defend an ally at range).

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

I'll admit it. I am feeling lazy... or is it tired?

 

Anyway, I could probably dig in the book to find this, I reckon, but I'm guessing "somebody already knows."

 

Okay so here's the power... straight-up 5th ed Healing/Regeneration:

 

Regeneration 3 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2)

 

So, if I have this power, can I choose not to regenerate when Post-Segment 12 rolls along? If not, is there a way to build Regeneration so you can control it when you are conscious? (Obviously, I wouldn't be able to do anything about it when he's unconscious.)

 

I've got a player that wants to hide this ability sometimes.

Can you stop it on Post-Segment 12? Actually, the answer to that is a resounding... NO!!!

 

From HERO 5th, Revised; page 187:

The Power works automatically during every Post-Segment 12 Recovery, allowing the character to recover 1 BODY per die of Healing per Turn.

 

From Persistent in HERO 5th, Revised; page 257:Persistent

Value: +½

An Instant or Constant Power with this +½ Advantage becomes a Persistent Power - it remains "turned on" even though the character is unconscious. The power must first cost no END, or be bought to Reduced Endurance (0 END). A Persistent Power costs 0 End to maintain, and remains turned on until the character concsiously decides to turn it off or dies. (See page 100 for more information on Persistent Powers).

 

Although these two entries would appear to "contradict" one another, they actually do not.

 

The power works "automatically" on Post-Segment 12 Recovery. You do not have control over that Segment, so therefore... the power works, and cannot be shut off at that time.

 

He can though, shut off his/her Regeneration during his/her regular phases... just not the Post-Segment 12 Recovery.

[caris]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Easy, take an Instant power that targets others by default and add the Self Only Limitation.

 

example:

20 Dispel 10d6 (30 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) End = 3

 

The power works each phase that the owner pays END and is a 0 phase action since no attack roll is necessary.

Adding the Continuous Advantage would not change this.

 

The disconnect is probably due to the fact that nearly every Instant power that targets others by default has some sort of effect roll built in. Effect rolls are not really constant in the same way as a defense power like Force Field. Plus the system already defines a constant equivalent to the adjustment powers Aid and Drain (Succor and Suppress).

 

However, if you desire a reactionary effect (like defensive powers) which is independent of the character's SPD you could do this with the Trigger Advantage.

 

OK, so what you are saying is that we have another situation where putting a Limitation on a power is giving a power an Advantage. Now putting self only on an Attack Power makes it a 0 Phase Action?

 

This would seem to me to imply that all Attack Actions would therefore be able to be used as 0 Phase actions as long as the character is targeting themselves. (Following the logic that a Limitation can not give Advantages, if that should seem to be the case the possibility of the Advantage exists at no cost without the Limitation ref: MultiPower Attacks and Linked.) So a character could apply an Aid to themself at the top of a phase (0 Phase action: activating a power, no Attack Roll=no Attack Action), half move to an ally, use the same Aid on them ending my action with the first Attack Action. This implies that all Instant Powers are inherently Continous when targeting the character that bought the power.

[caris]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Can you stop it on Post-Segment 12? Actually, the answer to that is a resounding... NO!!!

 

From HERO 5th, Revised; page 187:

The Power works automatically during every Post-Segment 12 Recovery, allowing the character to recover 1 BODY per die of Healing per Turn.

 

From Persistent in HERO 5th, Revised; page 257:Persistent

Value: +½

An Instant or Constant Power with this +½ Advantage becomes a Persistent Power - it remains "turned on" even though the character is unconscious. The power must first cost no END, or be bought to Reduced Endurance (0 END). A Persistent Power costs 0 End to maintain, and remains turned on until the character concsiously decides to turn it off or dies. (See page 100 for more information on Persistent Powers).

 

Although these two entries would appear to "contradict" one another, they actually do not.

 

The power works "automatically" on Post-Segment 12 Recovery. You do not have control over that Segment, so therefore... the power works, and cannot be shut off at that time.

 

He can though, shut off his/her Regeneration during his/her regular phases... just not the Post-Segment 12 Recovery.

 

Here is the catch, can the character turn off the power on their Segment 12 Phase (assuming at least a SPD 2), and choose not to turn the power back on before the end of the Phase?

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Here is the catch' date=' can the character turn off the power on their Segment 12 Phase (assuming at least a SPD 2), and choose not to turn the power back on before the end of the Phase?[/quote']

Again the answer to that would be... NO!!!

 

Even though the power is "turned off", it automatically works on Post-Segment 12 Recovery, but is still considered "shut-off" until reactivated otherwise.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Part of my reason for 'picking on' persistent is that this is the only place I can see it is used there and the rest of the build is ridiculously suspect too - what do you say about that?

 

I thin the Extra Time Limitation is weird and dodgey as all get out. But it doesn't bother me like it bothers others.

 

I think your Instant/Constant/Persistent argument holds less water than a sieve and is even more suspect that the above mentioned Extra Time Limitation.

 

The rules aren't a strait jacket. Like English mutilate as needed.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Again the answer to that would be... NO!!!

 

Even though the power is "turned off", it automatically works on Post-Segment 12 Recovery, but is still considered "shut-off" until reactivated otherwise.

 

what? no. If a Power is off it ceases to function. If you don't want it to cease functioning use the Always On Limitation (at whatever value).

[caris]

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

 

Again the answer to that would be... NO!!!

 

Even though the power is "turned off", it automatically works on Post-Segment 12 Recovery, but is still considered "shut-off" until reactivated otherwise.

 

Can you provide some support for this?

 

It makes the phrase "turned off" meaningless, and/or is giving the character added benefits for this power because it takes effect Post-Segment 12. "Yeah, it was 'turned off' at the time so what ever negative impact I was trying to avoid doesn't happen, but I still get the positive effect of the power."

 

This would also mean that Dispell is effectively useless against Regeneration (granted it normally can only work if timed very carefully, in a way that many people would find too meta-gaming for there tastes). Since Dispell turns off a Power, and Regeneration would seem to work even if it is turned off.