Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

[Drhoz]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Our GM had to put limits on Vitus' big SPD Drain, because it was stopping his biggest bricks dead in the water.

 

Other then that, a good grease-type spell is useful on ground-based bricks.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Your reasoning also doesn't explain why a character's OCV doesn't suffer in HtH when he's Prone. Can you move as fast on your back or stomach as on your feet?

Speaking as someone who does Mixed martial arts and jiutistu/wrestling in particular: yes. In game terms - you can't move out of your hex, but within that hex you're not particularly disadvantaged to attack an opponent. You can scrunch, roll, push off, etc. It's actually pretty easy to spin on your tailbone and keep your legs (your primary striking and defensive surface) between you and your target. And unless you deal with someone's legs, you're going to take a powerful shot to the knee/goin/chin when you try to do anything.

 

This is why the best defense against someone laying on their back is to back up and not engage, unless you can gain position on them (side, head, get them on their back, etc.). When they try to get up, THEN you engage.

 

EDIT - the main thing you can't do are punches, which require the power of your legs behind them to work well.

[Psylint]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

I guess the issue, for me, is the whole "defense is always a boat load less than offense"

 

The acid trick becomes an arms race, bricks suddenly run around with 15 pts. of Power Defense and become essentially immune (12 DC damage cap, 6d6 PD drain/2 because it goes against defenses).

 

So you add penetrating, they harden, you AP, they harden twice. Their costs 4, 8; your costs 30(60) and 60(120) (Violating the Active point cap and the damage cap; notes in parens are costs if delayed return is set to 1 day or thereabouts).

 

Mental Defense is even cheaper and persistent. I buy head butt (5d6 AVLD; 60pt.), they buy 15 pts. of mental Defense (13 pts.)

 

You use sweeps, throws, and other knockdown/back effects. They buy 1" of Flight or more likely Teleport with position shift (must travel intervening space) to model "jump up" or "rolling to feet." 0 phase action, they're back on their feet.

 

You use mental entangles, they take Psych. Lim's and berserks (some of which are entirely appropriate to the character; I've known folks that'll just completely wig when restrained) in addition to the Mental Defense.

 

Maybe I play with too many munchkins, but seems to me that buy spending around 80-90 pts. in defenses, Sir Grabs A Lot, can pretty much laugh at anything and everything with 12 DC cap or an 80 pt. Active pt. cap (especially since he's not really paying for offense; I mean with figured characteristics STR is better than free, and CON isn't far behind). I really hate grab, because it so easily negates a whole type of defense (DCV) and does damage for one endurance cost.

 

Flash/Darkness... combat sense (17 pts)

 

At 250, bricks had to have holes in their defenses, now with 100 "free points" they rarely do. Sure some bricks add the extra 50-100 pts. of "background skills" which I suppose was the original intent, but the Hulk clones out there really don't have a lot of skills/contacts/perqs.

 

Apologies. end rant.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

That's not a Brick problem. Pretty much any character can be build on a "defense against everything" basis. The question is not whether it could be done, but whether it should be done.

 

I'm no more likely to approve a character who has no weak points defensively than to approve one who is overpowered offensively, or one which has no background or personality. Or, for that matter, one which has inadequate offensive and/or defensive abilities for the game in question.

 

The extent of flexibility provided by the Hero system provides the possibility of an unbalanced character build. As a result, those builds have to be monitored.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Also, note that many of those attacks would likely be in a multipower, which means they'd actually only cost 1/10 their real cost - 3 and 6, as opposed to 30 or 60. But I agree with Hugh - that's an issue of character design.

[incrdbil]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

I appreciate the responses, but I was thinking more like how to defeat a brick, rather than just frustrate or stalemate it.

 

Capitalize on their usual faults. A sTR drain kills their rather limited offense selection. If he cant do enough damage, is slower, and elss accurate, you will win.

 

A mentalist..well heck, if you cant turn a brick into a fawning lackey, turn in your mentalist union card.

 

NND's vs..well, not many bricks have force fields. No need to get exotic.

 

Behgold the BBG (Brick Begone Gun)

 

EB 3d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), 64 Charges (+1/2), NND ([standard]; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2); OIF (-1/2)

+5 with Ranged Combat; Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only to increase number of autofire hits; -1), OIF (-1/2)

 

Or, the option is to drop the area effect one hex accurate, and just jaz up the skill levels. 2 phases of being hit with that, the bricks going to be wondering where did all his stun go.

 

 

One mistake and squish. Or, imagine a brick with a Mind Control "C'mere!" compelling my martial artist to come into range and attack him (I couldn't argue that that would require a high effect roll).

 

Brick with mind control? Thats far from usual. If you just keep finding yourself in scenarios where the brick always hits, or forces you to fight his way..well, yeah, you will lose. Thats the same for any character type.

 

Then the brick can block, and achieve priority in the next shared phase.

 

The martial artist who gets outblocked by a brick, routinely gets hit, by the Brick, isnt that much faster or accurate than the brick..well, the problem isn't with the brick at this point.

 

 

A Suppress PD (or resistant PD defense if you have a good KA) isnt that hard to pull off. Make it 0 end or a big continuing charge.

 

Suppress PD 12d6; 2 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1), OIF (-1/2), No Range (-1/2)

 

Even with defense effect having..he's hurt. Make it resistant defenses, and you can make him fear for his life.

 

Or take hsi Strength, or his Dex, or his Endurance.

 

 

If you have better movement, thats what passing strike is for. His move throughs and move-by's are going to miss. As for the big large objects--range is your friend, and your average brick really can't throw a bus that far.

 

Taking out a brick with a martial artist isnt impossible, or any more difficult than taking out any other character.

[incrdbil]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

The acid trick becomes an arms race, bricks suddenly run around with 15 pts. of Power Defense and become essentially immune (12 DC damage cap, 6d6 PD drain/2 because it goes against defenses).

 

At thsi point, if you are talking about NPC's, you've got a bad GM.

 

 

Mental Defense is even cheaper and persistent. I buy head butt (5d6 AVLD; 60pt.), they buy 15 pts. of mental Defense (13 pts.)

 

If Bricks are allowed to have perfect defenses against everything, my advicve is to talk to the GM about his poor play balance.

 

You use sweeps, throws, and other knockdown/back effects. They buy 1" of Flight or more likely Teleport with position shift (must travel intervening space) to model "jump up" or "rolling to feet." 0 phase action, they're back on their feet.

 

Well then, you just buy With the apparent infinite XP points or ability to rewriite characters from scenario to scenariio inhis example..in the end, what does it matter? Whoever re-did their character most recently wins.

 

 

Maybe I play with too many munchkins

,

 

It seems so, but are you talking in your role as a player, or as a GM? If its PC's, is this some sort of competioon, some 'my character can beat up your character thing?"

 

Theires only one thing fix munchkins-- a GM with a spine.

 

 

At 250, bricks had to have holes in their defenses, now with 100 "free points" they rarely do.

 

Thsi has nothingto do with point totals.

[Kirby]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

I guess the issue, for me, is the whole "defense is always a boat load less than offense"

 

The acid trick becomes an arms race, bricks suddenly run around with 15 pts. of Power Defense and become essentially immune (12 DC damage cap, 6d6 PD drain/2 because it goes against defenses).

 

So you add penetrating, they harden, you AP, they harden twice. Their costs 4, 8; your costs 30(60) and 60(120) (Violating the Active point cap and the damage cap; notes in parens are costs if delayed return is set to 1 day or thereabouts).

 

Mental Defense is even cheaper and persistent. I buy head butt (5d6 AVLD; 60pt.), they buy 15 pts. of mental Defense (13 pts.)

 

You use sweeps, throws, and other knockdown/back effects. They buy 1" of Flight or more likely Teleport with position shift (must travel intervening space) to model "jump up" or "rolling to feet." 0 phase action, they're back on their feet.

 

You use mental entangles, they take Psych. Lim's and berserks (some of which are entirely appropriate to the character; I've known folks that'll just completely wig when restrained) in addition to the Mental Defense.

 

Maybe I play with too many munchkins, but seems to me that buy spending around 80-90 pts. in defenses, Sir Grabs A Lot, can pretty much laugh at anything and everything with 12 DC cap or an 80 pt. Active pt. cap (especially since he's not really paying for offense; I mean with figured characteristics STR is better than free, and CON isn't far behind). I really hate grab, because it so easily negates a whole type of defense (DCV) and does damage for one endurance cost.

 

Flash/Darkness... combat sense (17 pts)

 

At 250, bricks had to have holes in their defenses, now with 100 "free points" they rarely do. Sure some bricks add the extra 50-100 pts. of "background skills" which I suppose was the original intent, but the Hulk clones out there really don't have a lot of skills/contacts/perqs.

 

Apologies. end rant.

Out of curiousity, are you the GM or the player? Your self-described rants are against specific instances, not general fighting of bricks. If your GM is doing these, then he's being a munchkin. If you're the GM, then you should learn to disallow or limit.

 

Did you look at all that was posted? Along with the held move, the following describes most of what everyone's mentioned:

Conventional:

Range attacks

Mind Control

EGO Blast

Coordinated attacks

STR Drains

CON Drains

Sight Flash Attacks

Takedowns (including legsweep & throws)

 

Unconventional:

Range attacks from directly above (doing a half-move up and firing, you'll be out of his superleap range quickly )

EGO Drain (prior to Mind Control)

Coordinated grabs (yes, grab the brick - one person per arm, others for neck or legs, if available - other team mates attack)

SPD Drain - think about it

Hearing Flash Attacks

Entangles - Force Wall surroundings (yes, most bricks will be able to break out of entangles easily, most will take out your Force Wall in one punch. Both waste the Brick's action and eventually for the Entangle, there will be that phase where the Brick's rolls (or casual roll) don't destroy the entangle and his DCV is even lower for called shots)

AoE attacks (less damage, but great for those who are using ranged attacks - also, may make the brick want to AoE attack you, meaning he'll make a half-move to a large object and half move to grab or half-move to throw; either way, he's not moving toward you and range penalties will be atrocious)

Damage Shield (particularly STR Drain)

Absorption of PD - "The more you hit me, the more powerful my EBs/Force Fields become"

Absorption Brick (such as Black Diamond from GRAB)

Haymaker, constantly (either he dodges or he gets hit by an additional +4d6 on those attacks; if he haymakers, dodge/move/throw/etc.)

Invisibility (defense, more a power than a trick)

Transform (arms into rubbery tentacles or hoses, brick into statue, etc.)

Add REC Drain to that list as well.

 

If you're looking for a "quick victory" over a brick, then you're already in the wrong mindset. Bricks are known for their powerful attacks and high defenses (aside from DCV). You aren't going to one hit a brick as a general rule. You nickel and dime bricks. Trying to take a brick out quickly one on one is like trying to mind control a mentalist; it's the wrong approach.

 

Here's another strategy to use: Skill levels

 

Penalty Skill Levels:

+8 vs Hit Locations - 24 points

+8 vs Range Modifiers - 24 points

 

With just these, you can do called shot after called shot after called shot to that brick's head, and from a VERY safe distance. AND you've just effectively doubled your DC.

 

Combat Skill Levels:

(Up to) +12 all Ranged Attacks - (up to) 60 points

 

With every level you purchase, you've increased your accuracy.

 

If you're a Martial Artist:

+8 vs Hit Locations - 24 points

 

and either:

+7 All Combat (56 points) OR

+12 with Martial Arts (60 points)

[Zed-F]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

The usual strategy against enemy bricks is simple: contain them first (or just ignore them,) deal with their allies, and THEN mop-up the brick when everyone can chip in. Most bricks are a pain defensively but no more dangerous than any other super offensively, and sometimes less so.

 

So why hit the hardened target first if you don't have to? That's a classic bad guy mistake, because the GM wants the combat to go on for more than one or two rounds. It's not what heroes* should do.

 

Here's another couple to add to the list:

- INT drain. This will hit most bricks pretty hard. Hard to be effective when you're locked into the same action over and over.

- Telekinesis. Pick the brick up and put him somewhere where he can't be effective, e.g. mid-air 10 stories up. Or throw the brick far far away, if he doesn't have good movement.

- Teleport UAA. Same deal.

 

 

* - or villains that are supposed to be tactically savvy, either, for that matter.

[Kirby]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Let's break this down paragraph by paragraph:

I guess the issue' date=' for me, is the whole "defense is always a boat load less than offense"[/quote']Why can't you buy more defense, then?

 

The acid trick becomes an arms race' date=' bricks suddenly run around with 15 pts. of Power Defense and become essentially immune (12 DC damage cap, 6d6 PD drain/2 because it goes against defenses).[/quote']Are you going to stop attacking bricks simply because they have defenses? Big whoop. A 6d6 attack versus 15 pts Power Defense will, on average, do 21 points 21-15 = 6. So on average, you're draining 6 cps per attack. That's 6 Str (and entire die of damage), 2 DEX (potentially lower their OCV/DCV on first hit as well), 3 CON (starting to get easier for CON Stun), 3 BODY (nice when following up with Transforms), 6 INT,3 EGO (followed by Mind Control, or Illusions), 6 PRE (he's not as scary) 12 COM (While not as combat effective, he's still Eeww!), 3 REC (REC is a big Brick schtick), or 1 SPD (yep, that 6 cps took down his 4 SPD to a 3 SPD. Now your 6 SPD goes twice as often.)

 

So you add penetrating' date=' they harden, you AP, they harden twice. Their costs 4, 8; your costs 30(60) and 60(120) (Violating the Active point cap and the damage cap; notes in parens are costs if delayed return is set to 1 day or thereabouts).[/quote']Why delay for a day? Do your fights last that long? I've never had one last that long. IF you want to delay a Drain, delay for a minute. I wouldn't even worry about the return rate to begin with. Say you're a 5 SPD versus a 4 SPD brick. You hit him 4 out of 5 times with a Speed Drain. He's lost, on average, 24 cps of Speed, but he'll get back 5 points, so he's still a 2 SPD brick. If he loses those 19 points in STR, he no longer deals out 12d6 of damage, but 8d6. Are you still worried about this path?

 

As for AP vs Hardened, you only have to buy AP once, the brick has to buy Hardened twice (one for PD, one for ED). So, your Energy Blaster has a MP right? You've spent 80 points on the MP with a 12d6 (60 pts - 6 real), 10 1/2d6 Physical AP (79 points - 8 real), and 8d6 APx2 Energy (80 points - 8 real) You've just spent 102 real ponts on 219 Active Points. You have 117 "free points" there. The brick has 30 Def PD/ED. To make this hardened, he spends 7 pts to get his PD hardened. But you also have a 2x AP energy attack, so he has to spend +8 (15 total) points for the defense that is for. But he's a brick, he also has to spend that on his damage resistance as well, so after spending 22 points on hardened defenses, he also has to spend 22 points on hardened Damage Resistance in case you add (for 6-8 points) a RKA or HKA.

 

A Brick with 60 STR 30 CON must spend 18 pts to bring his PD to 30 and 24 pts to bring his ED to 30. Hardening both is another 14 points. Buying Damage Resistance 30/30 with hardened is 37 points. So far, this has brought his cost to 169 points.*

 

Mental Defense is even cheaper and persistent. I buy head butt (5d6 AVLD; 60pt.)' date=' they buy 15 pts. of mental Defense (13 pts.)[/quote']Why would you buy a head butt this way? Also, if you're doing HtH attacks versus a brick and this is one of your powers, a decent build would include this in a MP, so while the brick spends 13 pts, you're only spending 6.

 

You use sweeps' date=' throws, and other knockdown/back effects. They buy 1" of Flight or more likely Teleport with position shift (must travel intervening space) to model "jump up" or "rolling to feet." 0 phase action, they're back on their feet.[/quote']It shouldn't be a 0-phase action, it should be a half-move. Also, this is a munchkin design. A more appropriate buy would be 3 points on breakfall. In addition, you don't seem to be thinking past just you vs the brick. If soemone gets the brick on his back, the rest of your team should be able to get an attack in (1/2 DCV for the brick) before the brick goes again.

 

You use mental entangles' date=' they take Psych. Lim's and berserks (some of which are entirely appropriate to the character; I've known folks that'll just completely wig when restrained) in addition to the Mental Defense.[/quote']Unless their berserks Disads are coupled with extra EGO, this doesn't matter. So, Brick Bob has 60 STR +60 STR when Enraged, Enraged when Entangled. You hit him with a MENTAL Entangle. That extra Strength helps how? It doesn't. Mental Defense does NOT stop a Mental Entangle, just like PD and ED do not stop conventional Entangles.

 

Maybe I play with too many munchkins' date=' but seems to me that buy spending around 80-90 pts. in defenses, Sir Grabs A Lot, can pretty much laugh at anything and everything with 12 DC cap or an 80 pt. Active pt. cap (especially since he's not really paying for offense; I mean with figured characteristics STR is better than free, and CON isn't far behind). I really hate grab, because it so easily negates a whole type of defense (DCV) and does damage for one endurance cost.[/quote']This is a sign you either really need to have a talk with your GM, or you as the GM need to have a talk with your players. Figured characteristics work just as well for non-bricks as they do for bricks. And a Grab doesn't cost one END if it does damage. It costs whatever STR is being used to cause that damage, thus a 60 STR brick is spending 6 END for that Grab/Squeeze.

 

Flash/Darkness... combat sense (17 pts)

Combat Sense is 15 points for an 11-' date=' so you're putting up a 12- roll (for a 10 INT brick), unless purchasing the "sense" modifier. But your'e missing quite a few key points here:

1. Combat Sense is only good versus SIGHT Flash or Darkness.
   
2. Combat Sense must be rolled EVERY PHASE
   
3. It is only helpful for Hand To Hand; the brick still suffers penalties for ranged attacks
   
4. It takes a half-phase action (preventing half-move + attack) if not purchased with the +2 modifier
   

Combat Sense doesn't help versus Hearing Flashes.

 

At 250' date=' bricks had to have holes in their defenses, now with 100 "free points" they rarely do. Sure some bricks add the extra 50-100 pts. of "background skills" which I suppose was the original intent, but the Hulk clones out there really don't have a lot of skills/contacts/perqs.[/quote']What kind of game are you playing where only the bricks get to be on 350 points? Why aren't you doing anything with those 100 "free points" as well?

 

*Let's see what you've proposed here for the brick:

60 STR - 50 points

15 points Power def - 15 points (up to 22 for hardened x2)

13 points Mental Def.

3 points for Breakfall

17 points Combat Sense 11- as sense

 

So far we've spent 98 -105 points.

Add in a 30 CON - 40 points

Add in 30/30 Def for PD/ED - 18+24= 42pts

Hardened defenses x1 +14 points x2 = +15

20 DEX = 30 points (3 SPD default)

+10 BODY = 20 points

+1 SPD (4 SPD total) 10 points (20 for 5 Spd)

 

With this, we've spent from 280-299 points.

So far you have no points in PRE, INT, COM, or EGO. Your leap is only 12", your run only 6" and no skills, including HtH skills. This character is still weak on a 350 scale. Bricks may seem "cheap" to build, but the more you work on "stopping everything" the higher the costs go.

 

There's also a whole world of NNDs and AVLDs (force fields, diseases, radiation, extreme heat/cold, aging, etc.) out there that the brick has yet been able to defend against. Full Life Support is 51 points to cover all those bases, making your cost so far 331-350 points, leaving you 0 -19 points to cover PRE, INT, COM, EGO, skills, etc. Good luck.

[Vondy]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Our group had a character with a massive variable power pool defined as "fundamental forces of motion." Bricks tended to get annoyed when she'd stand there and reverse the kinetic energy of their attacks. She was their worst nightmare. When she said "go ahead, knock yourself out" she wasn't kidding...

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

This is an intresting take on a Brick-----A Superspeed Brick, now you have to deal with a high DEX/SPD/PD/ED/Tons of STUN. Now you have to look at a totally different kind of fish.

 

Now the reason I say this is, I play a Superspeed Brick, second link in sig, Sentinel. He can be taken out, you just have to do the tired and true, out fight him.

 

I'd say team attack is always the best way to take out a Brick, then add that the Brick is in an Mental Entangle........

[Vorsch]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

All character builds that arnt mentalist should be vunerable to mental paralasis.

 

Bricks are meant to be the toughest and longest lasting opponent you could have.

 

In comics its usually other bricks that take him out not some gimp of a Martial artist.

[Vondy]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

All character builds that arnt mentalist should be vunerable to mental paralasis.

 

I'm sure there are some non-mentalist concepts that could justifiably be immune.

 

Bricks are meant to be the toughest and longest lasting opponent you could have.

 

Depends whose running the game, I guess. This is a totally subjective assumption - I might of though someone like Dr. Doom - as a for instance - was meant to be that opponent. Or Dr. Destroyer, or Mechanon, or the Taco Bell Lich.

 

In comics its usually other bricks that take him out not some gimp of a Martial artist.

 

And yet, in comics, a common theme is to have a gimp martial artist or dex based character go head to head to a major brick who is - in terms of raw power - way out of their league. And they often win. It just depends which comics you're reading, I guess.

 

Also, tell that to the player of the gimp martial artist who spent his points just as well as the bricks player did (and sometimes may have spent them better).

 

Role playing games may mirror genres, but they don't reproduce them - they're a different medium and have different requirements and dynamics in play.

 

Tell a player he can't win a fight because of genre conventions some time and see how it goes.

[Vorsch]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Guess i just object to bricks and martial artist doing the same damage, especially as i like characters to be able to fight copies of themselves without it being one hit and you out.

 

Most MAs damage are similar to bricks damage, but there defences are lower as well as con and stun.

 

I cant think of many fight where thor or the hulk or superman actually lost in a standup fight with a nominally human martial artist.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

I agree that MA damage is often (probably usually) lower than bricks'. That seems consistent with the source material as well. In most MA/brick combats I've seen in Champions, the MA often has to hit the brick a half dozen times or more to win whereas the brick only needs to hit the MA once or twice to triumph.

[Roter Baron]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Stunned people can't do anything, right? But Brick are hard to STUN, aren#t they?

 

So, STUN the bastards with

 

STUNNO - The STUN-Ray!!!!

 

12D6 EB, beam (-1/4), no Body (-1/2), no KB (-1/4), only to see if target is stunned (-1 1/2)

linked: 4d6 Con-Drain, ranged.

 

That should do the trick. Build STUNNO - The STUN-Ray into a nice little OAF-Pistol, give it some uses (like a six-shooter) and give it to your agents!

Put it into your Power-Armor-Multipower and giev yourself a little fun!

Easy to use, low on price, get more STUN für your buck!

 

Listen to satisfied customers:

 

"Since me and my pals use STUNNO - The STUN-Ray Pistols robbing banks is so much more fun!" (Sid, Viper Grunt)

 

"Yeah, I can never forget the stupid look on Power-Man's face when he was still trying to say: "Yooooo ... arrr ... unner ... arrrrreetzt ..." after we zapped him good for four round straight!" (FOUR of the FURIOUS FIVE)

 

"Ogre? Grond? We are now hauling them in like underaged shoplifters." (Sergeant Randy McKintosh, Millenium City Police)

 

Don't wait till tomorrow - GET YOUR STUNNO TODAY!

[Vorsch]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

well if 120ap powers are alright id go for a 24d6 eb

[Psylint]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Lots of responses.

 

1. Relative to the Stun-o-Ray, does no body is a -0 lim, not -1/2 unless it's changed, attacks that don't do body also do no kb for -0. Besides, at 120 ap, 24d6 eb is probably more efficient, and besides in the particular campaign the cap is 12DC's and 80 active pts.

 

2. Relative to the "changing my powers to meet each brick" the character is part martial artist, part tinker with a decent sized gadget pool. Come to think of it, that's probably the root of at least some of the problem. I originally envisionaged using it for thinks like night vision goggles, transdimensional teleporters etc. but the group seemed to be coming up against bricks all the frickin' time, we don't have one, and my character has "issues" so I became the anti-brick.

 

3. 1 day on the PD drain, is a "realism" thing. I figure that acid so caustic that it literally strips away the opponents metal/rock/chitin exo-skeleton etc. would hurt enough that it would be similar to taking Body damage.

 

4. Buying more defense... a concept thing. I know a self limitation, but there you have it. And, more directly, defense wouldn't address my "problem." I'm content with being squishy, it's part of the concept; what I dislike is having to arrange an air strike, inter stellar war, or convenient vat of molten [unobtainable indestructible metal] in which to martially throw, TK, etc. some brick that's based on the same point structure.

 

5. GMs with spines. Yep. I hear that. I posted elsewhere that I think that high stun, body, con, pd, ed, recovery, regeneration should all be calculated as a single power (with modification of course) and then applied to the active point cap. I think someone who has 30 Con, 30 pd, 30 ed, full damage resistance has spent 100+ points on defense, if I can't spend more than 80 on offense, and can't have more than 60 that does damage, that should be addressed.

 

6. Relative to grab... the point I was trying to make is that 60 str brick that grabs, both reduces the targets DCV for a duration and does damage for 1 cost, in that particular case 6 end, assuming no endurance reduction/advantages etc. By contrast, an energy projector to accomplish the same effects has to use two powers as a multipower attack and pay 2 costs to do, most likely a 12d6 EB for 6 Endurance and a Drain Dex for another 6.

 

7. Combat Sense.... 1) Hearing Flashes usually do not result in CV penalties for the brick, because most are Sight based. 2) Yes you have to roll 11-, if flashed or in a darkness relative to the brick's normal targeting sense, but they'll pass it over 62% of the time, with +2, which costs 4 pts. that probability increases to just shy of 84%.

 

8. Relative to the "100 free pts." I was talking about the increase in the standard points allowance from 250, back in the day, to 350. As to what I did with my "100 free pts." lots of sciences, contacts, perqs, and some minor equipment of the interesting/useful variety IR cameras, electronic bugs, tracers, a tinkering lab..

 

9. Relative to 6 cp's draining a full point of speed. I think you're wrong. I believe that adjustment powers only operate on full increments, so 6 cp's of drain speed does nothing until it gets the other 4. But correct me if I'm wrong with a citation to the FRED.

 

 

Whether Martial Artists should be able to take out bricks? Well, to me Thor is a god, so that a mere mortal can't take out a god is okay. I also think that Thor is built well north of 500 pts. So I'm okay that my 350 martial artist can't beat up a god "twice his size." What I don't like, and the "trigger" for my hope for help, is the ability of bricks of similar power levels to choose to ignore several characters, and then proceed to beat up a whole team.

 

Practical Invulnerability or very near to it, coupled with the ability to take out most everybody else in 1 or 2 shots.

 

I'm okay with bricks charging machine gun nests and laughing at the little mortals, that's their thing. I'm less okay with ignoring other hand to hand characters. High resistance, high recovery, high stun, high body, coupled with massive damage, means the brick gets to do its thing "shrug off attacks" and "break anything," while the rest of us just don't. The energy projector's blast that burns through an Abrams tank, hardly tickles most bricks, the martial artist lands every attack and does similarly superficial damage.

 

What I'd rather see, though I doubt I will, is bricks built with lower resistances and more damage reduction. 15rpd and 1/2 physical damage reduction rather than 30rpd, but it's more expensive that way, so it'll hardly ever happen. And for the love of Pete, the seemingly minimum 20 Recovery?

 

Peace

[Speedball]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

I have a cold-based character named Tundra. He's pretty good with bricks.

Option 1: Dex drain (4d6). He can't hurt what he can't hit.

Option 2: Speed Drain (3d6). He can't hit when he can't move!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

I'm okay with bricks charging machine gun nests and laughing at the little mortals' date=' that's their thing. I'm less okay with ignoring other hand to hand characters. High resistance, high recovery, high stun, high body, coupled with massive damage, means the brick gets to do its thing "shrug off attacks" and "break anything," while the rest of us just don't. The energy projector's blast that burns through an Abrams tank, hardly tickles most bricks, the martial artist lands every attack and does similarly superficial damage.[/quote']The ability to suck up damage is a far better identifier of what makes a brick than amount of damage done or even high STR. In many ways bricks serve primarily as "damage sponges." I don't begrudge that schtick any more than I resent martial artists with high DEX or speedsters doing three actions in the time it takes most of us to sneeze.

 

Personally I rather doubt that any EB's attack which "burns through an Abrams tank" will "barely tickle" most bricks. That requires some serious juice (In the official Hero TUV version the side of an M1 Abrams is 20 DEF Hardened; the front is 30 DEF Hardened). 350-point-class bricks that can ignore a 20-30d6 attack are few and far between.

[incrdbil]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

This rant seems more properly aimed at the local game structure and style, where perhaps Bricks are getting preferred treatment in builds.

 

Bricks of similar builds, similar campaign limits, and where player skilsl are equal are not going to routinely wipe out other teams on their own with no problem.

 

Somewhere, out there, is some brick player cursing those darn martial artists and their impossible to hit DCV's and superior speed and reflexes, or how the mentalist always mind controls them....

[Trebuchet]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

This rant seems more properly aimed at the local game structure and style, where perhaps Bricks are getting preferred treatment in builds.

 

Bricks of similar builds, similar campaign limits, and where player skilsl are equal are not going to routinely wipe out other teams on their own with no problem.

 

Somewhere, out there, is some brick player cursing those darn martial artists and their impossible to hit DCV's and superior speed and reflexes, or how the mentalist always mind controls them....

Heh. I was just thinking the same thing. We've got two threads going on similar topics, and in both have individuals who think bricks need to be faster and hit more often to have a chance against those overpoweringly awesome martial artists and other individuals who think those mean ol' bricks are just way too tough for those po' widdle MAs to fight.

 

My gut feeling is that when people think two opposite positions with regard to a game, then the game designers have probably got it about right. It's not a problem with the Hero system; it's a problem of specific campaigns.

[Psylint]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Granted.

 

Seems I just need to find a new game. I like my characters. I like occasionally getting tagged by a normal with a high powered rifle, and it hurting, a lot. Guess, I'm just out of step. Had the same issue with mental powers, everything but everything seemed to require Ego +30. Both Martial Arts and High STR characters are very efficient (I still think High STR is one of the most efficient builds possible). Either that or finish up my Sonic character. Looking over the things in the tired power thread, sounds like you could make a real monster out of it.

 

As far as any fault in Hero System; I think it's a great system, decreasing the efficiency of STR, perhaps putting some kind of exponential cost structure to resistance probably wouldn't hurt.

 

As far as bricks not being able to hit High DCV targets.. flyswatters, buses, aoes generally. For a martial artist to have the same effective defense as a brick, i.e. the ability to soak or ignore virtually all attacks, the CV gap has to be -8, and still 1 time in 200 or thereabouts, they'll get plastered. So if the bricks are running around at 20 DEX, and 3 H+H CSLs (OCV 11), the martial artist has to be 30 DEX with +9 general combat levels to DCV (DCV 19). Never being able to hit is no fun; hitting constantly to no appreciable effect isn't any better, in my not so humble opinion.

 

Guess I should start my own campaign. There's just something that seems not right to me that your average hero has 10 rpd, so everyone is bullet proof except from the luckiest shots of the highest powered pistols, and darned good shots from most rifles?

 

There was a solution a long time ago that I suggested to someone who wanted to be completely invulnerable to "normal weapons" a 14 rpd self only hardened shield wall. Nothing short of an anti-tank round has a chance of bringing it down, and so it would stop all Stun and Body damage from "normal weapons" 2d6+1 RKA. Of course, if it ever were brought down, the character was, relatively, otherwise poorly defended. Acceptable to me, not to the OP who wanted to be invulnerable.

 

And yes, I play with munchkins. Haven't met the brick yet that didn't have some form of "brick-fu" +5 OCV with grab was always quite popular. So against these, my hypothetical martial artist has to take +12 DCV levels (60 points!) and to make it persistent 10 pts. for defensive maneuver.

 

Many thanks, sometimes you can't see the munchkin for the trees no?

 

Peace

[Trebuchet]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

And yes, I play with munchkins. Haven't met the brick yet that didn't have some form of "brick-fu" +5 OCV with grab was always quite popular. So against these, my hypothetical martial artist has to take +12 DCV levels (60 points!) and to make it persistent 10 pts. for defensive maneuver.

 

Many thanks, sometimes you can't see the munchkin for the trees no?

You have my sympathy. Playing with munchkins can be a real pain in the butt unless you're willing to become one too. (I speak from experience here.)

 

Our team brick Silhouette has a whole +1 with Grab/Punch and DEX 23. Our co-GM Mentor has a villain brick named Fezzek (Yes, from "The Princess Bride" although based more on the book so he's a full 10 feet tall.) who was designed specifically as a counter to Silhouette. Fezzek has IIRC +3 Levels with Grab. In our first encounter with Fezzek's team my PC Zl'f was chasing one of the badguys over the London waterfront rooftops when the baddie dropped down to street level. Zl'f went down to the ground in hot pursuit, turned her head for a second, and was narrowly missed by a thrown Mini Cooper. Guess who? She tried to avoid Fezzek with a full 19 DCV Martial Dodge, but he rolled a 4 and Grabbed her anyway, then squeezed her till she passed out. Zl'f regained consciousness a half minute later and headed for the Thames River. She found Fezzek, having just tried a Move Through on Silhouette and nearly KOing himself (but not Stunned) because Silhouette weighs 800 tons (Density Increase), about to punch out Silhouette who is Stunned. Zl'f, in sheer desperation because Silhouette is her best friend and is about to get clobbered, does a full 30" Move Through on Fezzek. Not a good idea; her defenses are only 12 PD; half of that from Combat Luck which doesn't apply. The impact Stuns Zl'f and leaves her with only 2 Stun, but it also knocks Fezzek down to about 4 Stun. He decides to scram and leaps into the nearby Thames and escapes.

 

Next time Zl'f and Fezzek meet is at Tintagel Castle a year or so later; where he managed to sneak up on her and Grab her again by surprise. (Since he's 10 feet tall, he's literally over twice as tall as Zl'f who is all of 4' 9" tall. "Hello, lady.") He casually defenestrated her from Tintagel's battlements (about 12" up IIRC); Zl'f successfully makes her Breakfall roll despite the height penalties but Fezzek and his allies escape before she can get back up to him. Grrr!

 

Now I honestly think Zl'f has a good chance of beating Fezzek in a straight fight, but thus far I must admit the encounters have been entirely in his favor. In any case, she's looking forward to a rematch. Now we have in our campaign a much more interesting (and organically developed) archnemesis for Zl'f rather than one built specifically for her. (Fezzek against Silhouette has been 1-1-1, so she's looking for a rematch too.) I don't take the fact Fezzek has won twice as proof he's too powerful or Zl'f can't beat him; I take it as a challenge and if she does someday manage to defeat him I'll be proud as hell. It will be a glorious day.