Talking to the duplicates

[Watchman-BN]

A question came up in our campaign tonight that I told the group I'd post to the board to get your feedback.

 

One of the PC's has duplication. She regularly operates as a half-dozen characters.

 

We were wondering: if another character is trying to get her to do something, should they use Persuasion or Bureaucratics?

 

Another player suggested it might depend on the number of duplicates.

 

I should also mention the duplicates have mindlink, so they have "groupthink" going like any bureacracy would.

 

I thought for sure The Ultimate Skill would address this question, but, incredibly, it doesn't!

[Edsel]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

Oratory. You are trying to sway a group.

[Watchman-BN]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

Edsel wrote:

Oratory. You are trying to sway a group

 

 

That's another great possibility (and one that The Ultimate Skill/U] doesn't address!!1!).

 

My concern is this: its fairly common for only one of the duplicates to hear a "speech". The rest are just getting the gist of the oratory information relayed over the mindlink.

 

Is it realy oratory when the audience are in different parts of the building (or different states!) and can't actually hear the inflections and see the gestures of the speaker?

 

And, darned if this doesn't even get more complicated. What if your persuasion/bureaucratics/oratory role only indicates partial success? Say... 3 of duplicates are convinced and 3 aren't.

 

THEN the duplicates recombine. Is the PC convinced or just confused?

 

Ok, I'm done for now.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

Hmmm. Since this is a PC we're talking about, my inclination to answer about whether or not the PC is convinced is "Whatever the player decides." In other words, this is skating into that area where dice rolls can replace role-playing, and I've never liked that.

[Talon]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

I'd say the best you can do is convince whatever copies are actually present, and hope they can convince the other duplicates.

 

Or, buy Sticky on your Oratory.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

Hmmm. Since this is a PC we're talking about' date=' my inclination to answer about whether or not the PC is convinced is "Whatever the player decides." In other words, this is skating into that area where dice rolls can replace role-playing, and I've never liked that.[/quote']

 

Flipping this around, I've never liked the immunity PC's are suggested to enjoy to interaction skills. Why should they be different? If you want your character to be resistant to influence by others, buy up your opposing stats.

 

Of course, I would always take psychological limitations and established personality traits into account in assessing the difficulty of an interaction skill working. if a factor makes Mind Control more difficult, it will make interaction skills more difficult, if not impossible. There are some things some people simply cannot be persuaded to do.

 

It also creates problems for grey areas. If PC's get to choose whether Seduction works, should a superskill (Mind Control, limited to seduction effects, and RSR: Seduction) work because it's based on Mind Control, or be at PC discretion because it's based on an interaction skill? It seems like cheating to me when I tell players "interaction skills don't force PC's to do anything", then create a super-interaction skill to break that commitment. If a PC chooses to have interaction skills fail, contrary to his psychological limitations, is this poor role playing mandating an XP penalty? What disadvantage can a PC have for being subject to interaction skills normally? Should the GM stop having NPC's use interaction skills on PC's since they are a waste of effort?

 

I prefer the approach that PC's are subject to the same mechanics as everyone else (I also let villains recover from -10 STUN!) Imagine how much drama Star Wars would have lost if Luke Skywalker's "player" could have simply said "I'm resistant to Vader and Palpatine''s Seduction skill. I don't want to be tempted by the Dark Side." Players don't get to say "My character is very observant so the illusion fails", or "very string-willed so mind control fails", or "very tough, so that doesn't STUN or KO him". We define PC's resistance, and everyone else's, by mechanics and die rolls. There is, to me, no compelling reason that interaction skills should be different.

 

In the instant case, absent a contrary SFX, I would rule that the duplicates are all facets of the same being, so Interaction skills that affect one affect all of them. A contrary SFX might be the Madrox effect currently going on in X-Factor, where each duplicate reflects different facets of the main character's psyche. In that case, each duplicate logically could react differently to the interaction skills. That almost makes each Duplicate more of a Summon/Follower than an automatically controlled by player Duplicate, though.

[Talon]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

It's a trust issue, and an enjoyment issue. Few players like being told what their characters do...and good players will "play along" if something happens that their character would do even if it hurts the character.

 

As GM, I will use escalating hints "you REALLY find his words convincing", but in the end it's the player's call. A player who consistently ignores his character's background/personality probably won't enjoy my games anyway...and I'll find other ways to mess with them. I also apply the same logic to NPCs; sometimes a really good Interaction roll will fail because of an NPC's background (obviously this is far more likely to happen with more important NPCs, since they are likely to have more background info).

 

As for superskills...that's a different game mechanic, and I would describe it accordingly ("you can't help yourself"), etc.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

On the original question, I'd say that if you're talking in person to only one of them, that would be Persuasion. (You'd persuade that one, and rely on her to persuade the others.) If you're talking in person to all of them at once, that would be Oratory.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

Multiform and mind link do not change the way skills work, so persuasion will work just fine. However other members of the mind link, who are not subject to the persuasion themselves can use their own persuasion rolls to oppose the persuasion or otherwise try to convince the duplicate not to do what is asked (or conversely to go along with it). The GM might also impose skill penalties, using one or more of the following fomulae:

 

a) -1 to persuade 2 people simultaneously, and a further -1 for each doubling*

 

b ) -2 for adverse conditions*

 

c) whatever else you like.

 

It is no different, really, from trying to persuade 6 different people gathered in a room together. I mean, if you mind control one dupe you don't (unless there is a specific disadvantage allowing it) mind control them all.

 

As Hugh points out though, PCs generally do not have to worry about persuasion attempts. Here is how I deal with that.

 

If an NPC tries to persuade a PC of something, roll as normal. If the PC should be persuaded I tell the player - you believe her, her sister probably is in the gig and she will come straight back out once she's given her bus fare to get home.

 

I don't tell the player what to do though - they role play that. I expect the people I play with to role play responsibly

 

Similarly, if the PC and NPC roles were switched int he above situation, the same thing applies - the PC may well persuade the bouncer that her sister is in the gig and that she will hand over bus fare home the come straight out - but the bouncer, even if he believes the PC, does not HAVE to let her in - he could still say - I believe you, but I've got orders. Sorry.

 

 

 

*Which probably is in The Ultimate Skill - see Hero covers everything

[mattingly]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

Or, buy Sticky on your Oratory.

 

Oratory is more fun when it's MegaScale. Or Cumulative.

[casualplayer]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

I would say still Persuasion, with success or failure supplimenting any future Persuasion rolls. Convince the first dupe and they will help you sell the rest; make a bad first impression and you have your work cut out for you getting the rest of the "family" to like you.

[pinecone]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

A question came up in our campaign tonight that I told the group I'd post to the board to get your feedback.

 

One of the PC's has duplication. She regularly operates as a half-dozen characters.

 

We were wondering: if another character is trying to get her to do something, should they use Persuasion or Bureaucratics?

 

Another player suggested it might depend on the number of duplicates.

 

I should also mention the duplicates have mindlink, so they have "groupthink" going like any bureacracy would.

 

I thought for sure The Ultimate Skill would address this question, but, incredibly, it doesn't!

 

Dude...Oratory is the skill for influencing crowds...geez...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

The good Doctor is right, in that this is a fine line. However, I'm a strong believer that the PCs can be Presence Attacked, they can be convinced that something is 'reasonable,' and of course, they can get Mind Controlled, which REALLY removes choices from the table.

 

However. If they have 'group think' then I would point out that it really depends on what the NPC is looking for; seducing any of them, or convincing them of something, would be possible since in theory, they're ALL similarly inclined. What one finds sexy, so too would the other 5.

[Watchman-BN]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

Clearly, the most effective legal build to influence the duplicating PC would be applying the sticky advantage on the persuasion skill to affect all the minds at once.

 

I think I'd allow oratory, but if the duplicates are out of hearing range of each other, this would require AE telepathy to reach all the duplicates at once, or megascale oratory. If they were out of hearing range, but in LOS, then a mentalist could spread his telepathy to hit all of them (unless he bought it with the beam limitation, of course).

 

I suppose sticky telepathy would work too, since the duplicates have mindlink, but that seems a bit silly.

 

casualplayer said:

I would say still Persuasion, with success or failure supplimenting any future Persuasion rolls. Convince the first dupe and they will help you sell the rest; make a bad first impression and you have your work cut out for you getting the rest of the "family" to like you.

 

 

 

 

Good point, but it raises a question about this scenario:

The PC's Duplicate A is persuaded by a non-sticky persuasion, but her duplicates B, C, and D are not.

The character recombines. How persuaded is she now? Obviously the applicable rule is the one pertaining to averaging of

body

when duplicates recombine. So, assuming 1 out of 4 duplicates were persuaded, the PC would be only 1/4 as convinced when she recombines.

Thats all just common sense. (It also gives her a good defense against other mental attacks because after recombining, she'd only be 1/4 as mind controlled or illusioned. )

 

But, what happens when the PC splits again? Is it the same 4 duplicates? In other words, the previous Duplicate A is now the same Duplicate A and is just as convinced as she was before the combining? Or do we now have duplicates E, F, G, and H? And if the latter, how persuaded are they?

[Magnuss969]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

I will buy more dupes and be UNSTOPPABLE!!!!!

 

That'll learn them all to try to persuade me... Learn them all good!

 

As the player in question I believe it should be left in the hand of the player. That being said Flecha is easy to manipulate as long as you approach them from the right angle.

[casualplayer]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

Good point' date=' but it raises a question about this scenario:[indent']The PC's Duplicate A is persuaded by a non-sticky persuasion, but her duplicates B, C, and D are not.[/indent]

The character recombines. How persuaded is she now? Obviously the applicable rule is the one pertaining to averaging of

body

when duplicates recombine. So, assuming 1 out of 4 duplicates were persuaded, the PC would be only 1/4 as convinced when she recombines.

Thats all just common sense. (It also gives her a good defense against other mental attacks because after recombining, she'd only be 1/4 as mind controlled or illusioned. )

 

But, what happens when the PC splits again? Is it the same 4 duplicates? In other words, the previous Duplicate A is now the same Duplicate A and is just as convinced as she was before the combining? Or do we now have duplicates E, F, G, and H? And if the latter, how persuaded are they?

 

Think instead when you are averaging the degree of persuasion by the margin over/under with conflicting rolls of Persuasion vs. INT. Dupe A is completely convinced (+4,) Dupe B is ambivalent (PER+0,) Dupe C suspects something but can't put her finger on it (PER-1,) and Dupe D smells something rotten in Denmark (PER-3.) Average is PER+0 for an ambivalent agreement.

[Era Scarecrow]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

A question on the subject. Interaction between the character and his duplicates. Assuming the following.

 

1) one player/enemy has duplicates

2) he's not 'mind linked' but all basically have his personality

3) he splits and sends 'himself' in large numbers on a mission, like (I'm going to split into 32 me's and go stop that tank pick it up, and take it to the site and drop it into the enemy's HQ, then blow it up in their face), once split they all know the mission

 

4) Enemy has a high disguise, invisibility to sight groups, and mind reading (surface thoughts), learns the full details of the mission by reading his thoughts, watches them split.

 

How would this play out?

 

He disguises himself exactly as on of the duplicates, goes invisible, gets in the group (very back, or while they are busy and don't notice), makes his Disguise by about say.. 10? Acting, 6-10.

 

Then passes himself off as a duplicate, talks in his manerisms, does some powers he can do, or acts on his preferences (Say someone who is watching him for a while)

 

THEN! While they are busy moving the tank, he has a conversation with the duplicates either changing the mission, or how it worked, or convincing them he's the original and the mission changed. (The mayor's under attack in that limo, go protect him 'while i set a bomb in the tank and when you get back you will all be blown to bits when you pick it up again'), or decides to 'backstab' or neatralize each duplicate till one notices there's something wrong, then passes off as one. Since he can do surface thoughts, and probably still reading one or two of them, knows how they are thinking and reacting and continues to pass off as one.

 

LATER when they go to recombine, he goes as one, and instead of re-combineing, he knocks him out using a martial NND attack and stuns him out. If there's another duplicate, he talks with them, convincing them the one knocked out was someone in disguise, comment about what was going on to prove he wasn't the original, and then cause mass confusion.

 

Well? anyone going to tackle this?

 

Era

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

I think something is being overlooked here.

 

These are duplicates. Unless the character has a PhysLim of 'Multiple Personality Disorder' and/or has the character's EGO, PRE, INT, and psych lims TOTALLY different from duplicate to duplicate, what's convincing to one is going to be convincing to them all. If they all recombine, the 'whole' is going to be convinced; if they split apart, they'd again all be convinced. I'd GM fiat that, since they have mind link between them all anyhow, once you convince one of them, they're all convinced automatically.

 

YMMV.

[Era Scarecrow]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

I think something is being overlooked here.

 

These are duplicates. Unless the character has a PhysLim of 'Multiple Personality Disorder' and/or has the character's EGO, PRE, INT, and psych lims TOTALLY different from duplicate to duplicate, what's convincing to one is going to be convincing to them all. If they all recombine, the 'whole' is going to be convinced; if they split apart, they'd again all be convinced. I'd GM fiat that, since they have mind link between them all anyhow, once you convince one of them, they're all convinced automatically.

 

YMMV.

 

If they are all in the same room, yes i agree with you.

 

What if they aren't? Example. Say the character splits into 32, and 16 go in the left room, and 16 go in the right room. Separate NPC's talk with them, Both are told the same lie, the ones of the left fail, and the ones on the right succeed (Or see through the lie).

 

So question. I see it this way, the player gets 1 set of rolls, and both sides are determined separately. (Makes his Per by 3, the left room made his by 6, the right room made his roll by 1)

 

Unless they are all mind linked, they both half believe do/don't believe what's going on. How do you address this? Good roleplaying, and perhaps recombining (which would default to the winning side)

 

Perhaps if they recombined, the difference in those convinced should get a modifier for effecting the original character. Ex: If 8 were lied to successfully, and 24 saw the truth, he gets a +3 (+1 for each double) to his full roll. Same for the opposite direction. Then once combined, should the roll have caused him to go to his negetive (made his by 2, but has -3 from duplicates, so then believes the lie), or simply has a -3 on all interactions thereafter with those that were lied to on that person. GM's choice i think..

 

 

Era

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

I believe the note was that they were all mind linked. If they are, one roll for 'Multiple Man' to perceive the lie; perhaps if Slick convinces half the mind at a +3 success, and Bonehead fails at a -1, MM would believe (it equaling a +2 success) if something like this absolutely needs to be set in stone. Otherwise I think a MM would have a strong ability to hold several potential truths balanced equally in his head, preparing several different courses of action (or acting in several different ways; duplicates are available, after all) and wait for factual verification.

 

Again, YMMV. It's up to the GM.

[Era Scarecrow]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

I believe the note was that they were all mind linked. If they are, one roll for 'Multiple Man' to perceive the lie; perhaps if Slick convinces half the mind at a +3 success, and Bonehead fails at a -1, MM would believe (it equaling a +2 success) if something like this absolutely needs to be set in stone. Otherwise I think a MM would have a strong ability to hold several potential truths balanced equally in his head, preparing several different courses of action (or acting in several different ways; duplicates are available, after all) and wait for factual verification.

 

Again, YMMV. It's up to the GM.

 

1) one player/enemy has duplicates

2) he's not 'mind linked' but all basically have his personality

3) he splits and sends 'himself' in large numbers on a mission, like (I'm going to split into 32 me's and go stop that tank pick it up, and take it to the site and drop it into the enemy's HQ, then blow it up in their face), once split they all know the mission

 

I agree with you. However, my example included someone who wasn't mind linked (Watch Naruto? Think of his Shadow clone Nu-jitzu), where they all could act differently as situations dictate. If they are mind linked, then the example i gave would be a lot easier to deal with.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

Okay, so I'm blind.

 

As I originally said, though -- unless they have their mental stats and/or psych lims thoroughly different (and paid the cost for this), if you convinced the one, you'd convince them all; if you failed with the one, you'd fail with them all. I think also, though, that if Convinced (24, at a +1) and Unconvinced (8, at a -3) combined, neither would win. Or perhaps, if there was SOME issue, brought in by ANY of the clones, he'd receive a re-roll. Something like that.

[Era Scarecrow]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

However the DM decides to handle it, i guess..

 

I just want to see a senario play out and one player trying to convince his other 10-30 selfs and roleplaying each out:ugly:. That could take a couple hours though...

 

Era

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Talking to the duplicates

 

Reminds me of the old joke about the guy who goes out and buys a newspaper. He reads the front page article and doesn't believe it. So he buys ten more copies just to confirm that it's true.