Hermit Posted July 22, 2003 Report Share Posted July 22, 2003 http://www.champions-vs-sas.com/ Dr Destroyer and Kreuzritter will be forging an unholy alliance (Kind of like Marrying in leather?) and thus the stage for "Reality Storm" is set. http://pub84.ezboard.com/bsuperheroshowdown66104 if you want to talk with the SAS fans and post your thoughts. I know others will have their gripes, but I'd like to thank DoJ AND GoO for this fun oppurtunity. I rather enjoyed many of the stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 22, 2003 Report Share Posted July 22, 2003 Did they list the totals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted July 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2003 nope Not that I've seen. Then again, I don't believe they did for the previous matches either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVonDoom Posted July 22, 2003 Report Share Posted July 22, 2003 it is no longer a VS anymore: Dr Destroyer Vs Kreuzritter is now Dr Destroyer AND Kreuzritter (Crusader in english) in "Realitystorm" starring ... hmm it feels like a movie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 A) Finally! Team-up - no surprise. It's a classic comic book plot development, and knowledge of Reality Storm would likely have tilted the voting that way. C) I can already see the DoJ/GoO conspiracy theorists coming over the hill. D) I have to wait for Reality Storm until OCTOBER?! AAARRRGGGHHH!! (I'm sure it'll be worth the wait. It's just really cathartic to type AAARRRGGGHHH!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamo Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 Boo! I wanted an overall winner declared between HERO and SAS! The Firewing/General Winter "match" was clearly fixed to insure an artificial tie. I feel like an idiot because none of my votes really counted for anything. They wasted my time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 That didn't take long. As I was saying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamo Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 As I was saying... Sir, if you honestly believe that both Firewing and General Winter recieved the exact same amount of votes, I have a bridge to sell you. Really, that's just daft. It's a painfully-obvious sham. I expect better from you, LL. Even if you do love to tow the party line, so to speak. Think, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted July 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 Originally posted by Yamo Sir, if you honestly believe that both Firewing and General Winter recieved the exact same amount of votes, I have a bridge to sell you. Really, that's just daft. It's a painfully-obvious sham. I expect better from you, LL. Even if you do love to tow the party line, so to speak. Think, man. Yamo, you're bordering on the insulting, maybe even sticking a toe over it. I don't think it was 'rigged' either (Though I wouldn't be surprised if some of the employees of GoO and DoJ voted themselves, why shouldn't they? ) does that mean I don't think? It IS possible to tie, why assume the worst? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 Yamo, my apologies. My remark did come out too flippant. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. I don't agree, but I'd rather not make a debate out of that - it's only a game, after all. I enjoyed the contest, and I'm sorry the outcome spoiled that for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamo Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 It IS possible to tie, why assume the worst? Why? a) Occam's Razor. A genuine tie is possible, but extremely unlikely. A manufactured tie is extremely plausable once you factor in other motivators like: The desire of both companies to have their cake and eat it too by having a "contest" for publicity where both are guaranteed not to lose face by coming in second. c) The desire of both company's to not give partisan fans ammo in a "my system is better than yours because it won the Showdown" context. Generates ill will. Why would they want that? d) The desire of both companies to attempt a clever marketing ploy of leaving the contest tied as a sort of a "cliffhanger" leading up to the Reality Storm release. So you can believe what you like, but I prefer to believe that I'm wise enough to see and acknowledge what's right in front of my face (and festooned with bells and flashing neon signs, in this case). Call it a rude notion if you like, but it really is that obvious to me and I make no bones about it. Yamo, my apologies. My remark did come out too flippant. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. I don't agree, but I'd rather not make a debate out of that - it's only a game, after all. I enjoyed the contest, and I'm sorry the outcome spoiled that for you. At the same time, though, I'm just calling it as I see it. I'm NOT trying to be rude, and I apologize if I came off that way in the heat of my irritation over this issue. Don't worry, be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted July 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 Originally posted by Yamo Don't worry, be happy. Well, that we can all agree on I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 Originally posted by Yamo Occam's Razor Sorry, I just couldn't let this one go by. Ockham's Razor is the test of multiplying assumptions beyond necessity; another way of putting this is that the simplest explanation is the most likely. Which is the simplest explanation: that the companies colluded to fix the voting, or that we just ended up with a tie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamo Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 Sorry, I just couldn't let this one go by. Ockham's Razor is the test of multiplying assumptions beyond necessity; another way of putting this is that the simplest explanation is the most likely. Which is the simplest explanation: that the companies colluded to fix the voting, or that we just ended up with a tie? Maybe you're right. In this case, though, the simplest explaination is massively improbable because of both the sheer odds involved and the many motivations outlined above to engineer this specific outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 I don't care if it was rigged or not. I bet you more people who voted for Dr. Destroyer or Kreuzritter voted for Dr. Destroyer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Arrow Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 Occam's razor is, as Lord Liaden says, an argument against too many unlikely hypotheses. There were only four possible outcomes of the contest. Destroyer wins, Keuzritter wins, they tie, they team up (the last two are not the same option). We got the most convenient outcome for the two companies. There are three likely explanations. First, that really was the result and it was an entirely free vote. I voted for them to team up, as that was obviously the way it was heading (even though Destroyer would have won, of course). Second, that was the result, but there was a bit of ballot rigging, by employees. Also possible. Third, they ignored the votes and went with the result they wanted. This is also possible. Not only does it set up Reality Storm, but as has previously been noted, neither company's characters won overall (heroes were 3:3, villains 2:2, with one draw and one team up). Occam's razor (in the sense of "most simple answer wins") doesn't help, because in my view the simplest explanation for a result that looks this convenient is that it was fixed. However, the simplest explanation overall is that that was the result of the poll (either route). As with so much in life, it depends how you phrase the question. If it were rigged, yes it's a little annoying, but isn't the real fun of this getting to look at the other side's characters, read the stories, argue over who's better (here, or on the offical board) etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 So... the Razor cuts both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fry Daddy Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 When is Reality Storm coming out? I heard at Gen Con and then I heard October..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willpower Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 Originally posted by Hermit Yamo, you're bordering on the insulting, maybe even sticking a toe over it. I don't think it was 'rigged' either (Though I wouldn't be surprised if some of the employees of GoO and DoJ voted themselves, why shouldn't they? ) does that mean I don't think? It IS possible to tie, why assume the worst? OK, wait a minute... so your saying, that IF this is what happened, (EG. sample conversation, not even implied that it is real - DOJ exec, or GOO exec: "Ok its pretty much over, and Firewing has it by 7 votes. Hmm... round up 7 employees that didn't vote yet, and get them to vote the other way so it ends a tie.") then that would NOT be rigging the contest??? That is ludicrous. In fact though they didn't need to do this though, since to answer a previous question, No they didn't post the results to any of the contests I saw. This in fact is one of the many pieces of evidence I pointed out on the SAS Hero Showdown forum to help show the reasons I thought it was rigged. I for one don't really care if the contest was rigged or not. It was fun, and I believe it was, but I think it hardly matters if it was or not, it was an excellent publicity stunt one way or another, and it set up the crossover perfectly, just as you said. Which... hmm... was also another piece of evidence if I remember correctly. I think I mentioned when the team up option became available that it would set up the crossover perfectly, and that I think that was why it was thrown in. That and they couldn't make the biggest fool believe in yet another tie, when there wasn't one in all the matches before. Which brings me to my last point. Why is it that whenever someone says something that differs in the least from the company reps want said, people start jumping in with, thats insulting, or something like that, even when its not. I really don't think what Yamo said was remotely insulting. Why is it insulting to point out an obvious longshot. I mean, we don't even know the number of voters, but for sake of argument say there was 150, which there was probably more. The chances that both sides would come out exactly at 75 votes is a real longshot. To imply that is an obviousness, that you'd have to be daft not to see isn't insulting. In fact I think its insulting the way people jump all over someone who says what the companies involved don't want them to say. To me that seems like a company yes man, only most we see hear don't work for the company. In fact, that is probably the reason for comment on something being insulting. A person from whichever company is involved steps out and says something they don't like being said is insulting, and then all they have to do is step back and let all the fans tear the offender apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevHooligan Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 What baffles me is why it matters how a tied result happened. If you cared enough to vote and then discuss your vote in an online forum, you're gonna buy the damn thing anyway. Does it matter which piece of paper full of numbers "won"? To accuse people of being company stooges just because they enjoy the product is silly. I don't get why anyone would be on this board if you didn't think the products were worth buying. If you don't see the value in a supplement and other gamers enjoy it, perhaps it's a matter of taste and not a far reaching international conspiracy. I don't buy every Hero release, and I wouldn't even if I didn't have rent and car payments to waste my gaming money on. You're not being hoodwinked into buying something you don't want. You want it! Shut up and buy it or shut up and don't buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevHooligan Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 Originally posted by Yamo They wasted my time. If your time was exceptionaly valuable, you wouldn't be here. Hero Games wastes my time every Sunday. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVonDoom Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Why is it called Realitystorm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted July 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Originally posted by Willpower OK, wait a minute... so your saying, that IF this is what happened, (EG. sample conversation, not even implied that it is real - DOJ exec, or GOO exec: "Ok its pretty much over, and Firewing has it by 7 votes. Hmm... round up 7 employees that didn't vote yet, and get them to vote the other way so it ends a tie.") then that would NOT be rigging the contest??? That is ludicrous. No, i'm saying they might have voted themselves, period. My guess would be before the voting period was over, so again, no rigging. No more than someone running for mayor is rigging things by voting for himself. The fact they didn't post the numbers isn't viable evidence that it IS rigged, any more than your not getting their fiscal reports proves they are cheating on taxes (To the best of my knowledge, they aren't but hey, but your logic...) And yes, when, without anything but speculation to go on you accuse folks of cheating, lying, or worse; then yes, it is insulting. It shows a lack of manners if nothing else... "Hey, nothing personal but I have a hard time believing this so it must be rigged... but no hard feelings eh?" Gee, how could that possibly be insulting?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayoman Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Originally posted by VictorVonDoom Why is it called Realitystorm? Because, as you can tell by reading the posts in this thread, everyone's version of REALITY causes a STORM of controversy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightraven Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 The point is, since it was and is so clearly rigged, why even bother letting us think our votes mattered? Why not just say: Go to the discussion boards and discuss who you think should win. We'll announce our selection of the winner at the end of the month. Because it sure looks like that's what they did. I don't mind if its rigged. I just don't like having my intelligence insulted. "New game ties old game with huge fanbase based on votes! No, really! You don't think we'd make this up, do you? What are you, stupid?" No, I'm not. BTW, I'll probably pick up Reality Storm, but I already have the Time of Crisis module for a good example of how to do cross-universe, cross-time adventures. (Or Champions in 3-D....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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