Got the FH book

[DMTingle]

Just got home from GenCon (I live in Indianapolis) with the new Fantasy Hero book.

 

WOW!

 

A lot of new material.....I have the 2nd Ed to compare it to.

 

IMHO it's well worth the wait, and the money.

 

There doesn't seem to be much going on at GenCon where Hero is concerned. But, it is a WoTC Con afterall.

[Nato]

I'm extremely excited to get a copy of this book myself, and look forward to hearing what people think about it while I await mine.

[Blue]

Generic few frills character

 

Just thought I'd throw a racial and an occupation package together and make a simple character with few additions.

 

I give you "Handsome Nurgen", Ogre bounty hunter, tracker of humanoids. Called handsome because he's an Ogre with a 10 COM (gorgeous by their standars).

 

Handsome Nurgen

 

Player:

 

Val	Char	Cost
30	STR	20
13	DEX	9
23	CON	26
20	BODY	20
11	INT	1
8	EGO	-4
18	PRE	8
10	COM	0
8/11	PD	2
8/11	ED	3
3	SPD	7
11	REC	0
46	END	0
47	STUN	0

6" RUN02" SWIM06" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 92

 

Cost	Power	END
14	Fearless: (Total: 40 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost) Power Defense (20 points) (20 Active Points); Only to resist fear (-2) (Real Cost: 7) plus +20 Mental Defense (22 points total) (20 Active Points); Only to resist fear (-2) (Real Cost: 7)

Powers Cost: 14

 

 

Cost	Skill
3	Climbing 12-
2	KS: Monsters 11-
2	KS: Ferocious Beasts 11-
3	Stealth 12-
2	Survival (Mountain) 11-
5	Tracking 12-
4	WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons
3	Shadowing 11-
3	Streetwise 13-
3	Tactics 11-
3	Trading 13-
3	Riding 12-
3	Paramedics 11-
2	Language: Human (basic conversation; literate)

Skills Cost: 41

 

Cost	Perk
3	Reputation (A large group; 8-) +3/+3d6, feared hunter of humanoid races

Perks Cost: 3

 

 

Cost	Equipment	END
0	Heavy Animal Hide: Armor (3 PD/3 ED) (Paid in full (150 sp)) [Notes: 9 BODY, 14 kg]
0	Great Club: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6 (Paid In Full (17sp)); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [Notes: 7 BODY, 3 DEF, 2 kg]
0	133 sp: Custom Power , Custom Adder (0 Active Points)

Equipment costs shown above are for reference only, and are not included in Total Cost.

 

Total Character Cost: 150

 

Val	Disadvantages
20	Dependent NPC: 'Scilla, human girl-child ward 11- (Incompetent)
20	Enraged: Bounty payers don't pay up (Common), go 11-, recover 11-
5	Rivalry: Professional (The Human Union - Bounty Hunters; Rival is As Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry)
10	Social Limitation: Ogre trying to operate in a human world (Frequently; Major; Not Limiting In Some Cultures)
5	Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x Effect Light Based attacks (Uncommon)
15	Hunted: The Broken Tooth clan (Ogres) 11- (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish; Limited Geographical Area)

Disadvantage Points: 75

 

Base Points: 75

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[nHammer]

Blue, I liked the character concept.

 

Two things stood out to me:

 

1. If he's fearless, how about some Pre. only vs Pre Attacks?

 

2. +6D6 w/Great Club plus his 30 Str. and you get 12D6 attack. That pretty darn vicious. You got to be careful you're not killing people you don't want to with that attack.

[CrosshairCollie]

I don't have FH5 yet, for lack of a better term for it, but ... don't they do the STR Min thing standard on FH weapons anymore?

[Steve Long]

There doesn't seem to be much going on at GenCon where Hero is concerned.

 

Actually, there are about 90 different Hero games being run at the con -- an average of about 5-6 per slot. I think that's the most of any system but D&D. And we're giving out a 20% off booth purchases coupon for the GM to award to the best player in each game.

 

We're also having signings by all sorts of people. Yesterday we had Aaron Allston, Klaus Scherwinski, and Erik Roman in the booth; today's guest is Storn Cook.

[Blue]

Originally posted by nHammer

Blue, I liked the character concept.

 

Two things stood out to me:

 

1. If he's fearless, how about some Pre. only vs Pre Attacks?

 

2. +6D6 w/Great Club plus his 30 Str. and you get 12D6 attack. That pretty darn vicious. You got to be careful you're not killing people you don't want to with that attack.

 

Just ran outta points on the first point. I'd have loved some more PRE. As for the club, it is a little overpowered. So I may grab a smaller club, plus I think he needs a weapon for capturing. Whip is the only pre-built one I see (ranged grab). So I may come up with something else and have to set a silver piece cost myself.

 

The STR Min on the Great Club is 15. So that's +3DC of STR that can be added, meaning I can do 9D6. That's still quite a bit for a fantasy campaign, but then he *is* an Ogre. I actually expect that his DNPC will be nagging him not to use the big heavy club in most cases.

[nHammer]

Originally posted by Blue

 

The STR Min on the Great Club is 15. So that's +3DC of STR that can be added, meaning I can do 9D6. That's still quite a bit for a fantasy campaign, but then he *is* an Ogre. I actually expect that his DNPC will be nagging him not to use the big heavy club in most cases.

 

I completely forgot about Str. Minimum. Ogre doing 9D6 with the Club would be the most I'd allow as a GM.

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by Nato

I'm extremely excited to get a copy of this book myself, and look forward to hearing what people think about it while I await mine.

 

First reaction: it's a tome!

 

Five things I like:

 

1. Excellent and varied assortment of art. Some really nice pieces: the winged woman on page 44, your magical texts piece on page 226, Storn's dragon rider on page 229, Hogwarts SG-1 on page 235, and the poppet-weilding vampire on page 255. I also really like the black chapter start pages.

 

2. An all-around excellent collection of things to think about, presented in clear language. Steve, I know you get a lot of general "great job!" compliments, but man, you write well.

 

3. The magic section rocks!

 

4. I perceive a bit of a shift in recent Hero products (the UNTIL Superpowers Database definitely set a new level) to emphasizing the effects more than the "rules write-up". I see that in the spells write-ups (and magic-using characters as well)

 

5. The brief (but happy-making) urban fantasy discussion!

 

 

There are also a host of things that I continue to be thrilled about, but which I always forget to mention because they're in every book: the index (oh, god, the index!), the consistent elements of the cover designs (including the "Hero System Fifth Edition" logo which changes colour to match the cover art), the sidebars. The general high level of editing quality.

 

 

Five things I'm less satisfied with:

 

1. Is this the whitest Hero product to date? (Yeah, I know there's something about the genre that makes people think about old Europe. I guess I thought the artists would be hungry to try out distinctive looks in the fantasy genre).

 

2. As a follow-on to point one, I would have really liked to see a magic style that was notably different than "european" systems. Sure, Vodou got a brief mention. But I wish there was something in there as evocative as, say, Nyambe mask-magic.

 

3. I wish each of the fantasy races were pictured. I know that this is a genre book, rather than a settings book, but I fear that the settings books will skim over races, given how many pages are in Fantasy Hero. And I like to see what the races look like.

 

4. The cleavage brigade

 

5. I'm starting to think that having a bibliography in a book like Fantasy Hero doesn't really provide any value for me. I think I would get more value out of a bibliography if it talked about some Really Interesting Ideas that appear in the books listed. But if it's just "this book is excellent", I'd rather have a few pages of sample maps.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by bcholmes

4. The cleavage brigade

 

5. I'm starting to think that having a bibliography in a book like Fantasy Hero doesn't really provide any value for me. I think I would get more value out of a bibliography if it talked about some Really Interesting Ideas that appear in the books listed. But if it's just "this book is excellent", I'd rather have a few pages of sample maps.

I don't at all mean to knock bcholmes for this opinion, but I just wanted to put a spin on it. Even if you don't like the cleavage brigade or the bibliography, it's still in some ways a backhanded compliment to list these things among the top five things you don't like about a book. It's hardly as damning a complaint as saying you dislike the magic section and the combat section, for example.

 

I mean, if two of the five things you dislike most are art cleavage and the bibliography, that must mean the book is doing something right.

[Storn]

>>1. Is this the whitest Hero product to date? (Yeah, I know there's something about the genre that makes people think about old Europe. I guess I thought the artists would be hungry to try out distinctive looks in the fantasy genre).

<<<

 

Y'know, that is a good point. I do not have FH yet, so all I know of the art is the art that I have done.

 

All I can say in my defense is a couple of things.

 

I did try and present a mage, who is black, as urbane, slender and dynamic... trying to twist away from some of the cliches. He appears on teh cover and in one interior.

 

When presented with orcs and elves and dwarves rubbing up against humanity... matters of skin color just don't carry the same weight as they do in our present society. In my imagination, that is. They might or they might not. But in my fantasy world, that is one issue that would be lessened... so many "others". So I did do an interior of an Orc (or hobgoblin) at a court function, chaffing, but being treated as an equal... and having dignity. In a way, trying to twist the cliche from the Barbarian orc.

 

This was a generic fantasy book, not a specific setting. I'm a white guy. My first instinct is to draw white people. This, admittedly, is a cop out... but staring at a blank sheet of paper, a deadline and 2 sentences from the art director... instinct just kicks in. I really have to think to come up with scenes and characters outside of whitebread norms. Referencing exotic architecture and such is a lot of work (not defending, just explaining), while the W. Europe look is part of my visual vocabulary.

 

Honestly, the thing I think about the most in Fantasy is the impact that Magic has on society. Art, Architecture, Fashion, Tactics, etc etc. This is true about my Fantasy Campaign, as well as the art that I create. It is a theme that is so invasive in my noggin, that I often short-shrift other concerns.

 

I've had this exact discussion before with other artists (RPGnet's Freelance and Freelancers section) and it does truly concern me. I don't want to short shift any culture. I started a thread, a call to other artists to create and think about more multi-cultural images. Guess I should listen to my own damn self.

 

Keep bringing the subject up. I PROMISE I will listen. I definitely needed the reminder. So thank you.

[brak1]

>>1. Is this the whitest Hero product to date? (Yeah, I know there's something about the genre that makes people think about old Europe. I guess I thought the artists would be hungry to try out distinctive looks in the fantasy genre).

<<<

 

I haven't seen it yet either, but I know I specifically realized while I was doing the four pieces I contributed to this that I had not been doing enough to try and provide characters of different cultures and backgrounds. I made one of the characters black, but of course there's no real context - he's sort of just another cleric fighting skeletons.

 

As Storn also said - keep bringing it up, it needs to be addressed and I too will endeavor to do a better job at providing multi-cultural characters in the future.

 

-bob cram

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

I mean, if two of the five things you dislike most are art cleavage and the bibliography, that must mean the book is doing something right.

 

Oh, definitely. The pros outweigh the cons by orders of magnitude. It's a great book!

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by Storn

Y'know, that is a good point. I do not have FH yet, so all I know of the art is the art that I have done.

 

<nod> I just went and scanned through the book again this morning, and there is a bit more diversity than I first noticed. Erik has a few images that play with middle-eastern styles, for example.

 

I did try and present a mage, who is black, as urbane, slender and dynamic... trying to twist away from some of the cliches. He appears on teh cover and in one interior.

 

Yeah, he's a good character. Black mages are pretty darn rare.

 

Keep bringing the subject up. I PROMISE I will listen. I definitely needed the reminder. So thank you.

 

For what it's worth, I really liked your analysis of the way you think (including the blinders when they exist) as you approach an art assignment.

[AnotherSkip]

Heh Read Mercedes Lackey's White Griffon for Black mages of both good and ill intent.

 

As well as about any other "archetype"

 

as well as amerindish and whitebread.

[Storn]

For what it's worth, I really liked your analysis of the way you think (including the blinders when they exist) as you approach an art assignment.

 

Thank you bc. I appreciate it. I wasnt sure if I should include the "blinders" (great word, btw!) but I guess I erred on the side of honesty... usually the better call.

 

It is a subject that requires some sensititivity, but not so much so that it drifts into political correctness. I don't always know where the line is, to be honest. But it is a subject that I care about very much.

[The Mad GM]

Whitebread

 

Might as well fess up on my own behalf.

 

I agree with Storn, it takes an effort of will to keep things fresh. That's one of the reasons I read National Geographic, so the next time an assignment says, "a ranger stalking a deer", I might see an aborigine with a blowgun rather than some clone of Robin Hood.

 

I like my bard drawing too much to change him (though as I think about it, a number of cultural alternates suggest themselves), but the "group getting together in a tavern" and the "same group fighting orcs" were perfect opportunities to show more diversity, and I dropped the ball.

 

Thanks for the reminder, I'll try harder next time!

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by Storn

Thank you bc. I appreciate it. I wasnt sure if I should include the "blinders" (great word, btw!) but I guess I erred on the side of honesty... usually the better call.

 

It is a subject that requires some sensititivity, but not so much so that it drifts into political correctness. I don't always know where the line is, to be honest. But it is a subject that I care about very much.

It really is a difficult path to stay on, if you don't include enough "non white" characters you get complaints that you ignore other cultures, if you include too many you get accused of pandering. If you are perceived as portraying to many "non white" characters as villians you're stereotyping.

 

It's an admirable goal but I think your kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Personally my pet peave of late is all the RPG's using she exclusively.

 

 

The art in FH was great and cleavage is just part of the genre, my wife is a semi professional artist (she has been paid for work, but its not really a regular job) and most of her fantasy art is full of cleavage, its just part of the style. I must admit I didn't really care for the cover as the cover, it was a nice piece of art but as others have said it was busy and superheroish, I prefer a more subdued style for a fantasy cover, the 1st ed AD&D players handbook and DM's guide are still my favorite covers, followed by the second (4th ed?) FH and its 2 companions covers.

[keithcurtis]

One of the problems with generic fantasy gaming art (i.e. followin the D&D model) is that so many of the archetypes are drawn from European sources. Dwarves and Elves (as modeled) come from these sources. A black Elf or a Chinese Dwarf would look odd and out of place. At the same time, if the subject was bushido, a caucasian samurai would be equally jarring.

That being said, so much of the art assignments are generic "A wizard casts a spell" variety, that the artist could easily interpret it from the point of view of any culture. When I start my Grimoire assignments, I'll try and keep that in mind.

 

To be fair to DOJ, their art assignments specifically direct the artists that unless otherwise specified, they are free to interpret the described characters of any age, race or sex.

 

As for the Cleavage situation: It is fantasy art.

 

Keith "chiming in" Curtis

[Toadmaster]

Just rereading my last post I realized it looks like I'm bagging on the cover, I'm not, its just not in my favorites list of fantasy covers. It's better than I would have done, unless you're really into stick figures.