Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

[runescience]

Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

One of my players is a Paladin, the Other is a smoothie of sorts.

 

Both want to use a skill like sense motive. It seems there is a wealth of skills already in place. The paladin has: oratory, persuation, conversation, and seduction. I dont want to make it an Analyze skill. That forces the player to spend more.

 

What do I do for sense motive/detect lies?

[garou]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

I don't have the book handy, but I recall a "skill" like that in Dark Champions. IIRC, it was Telepathy, Only to Detect Lies, and it took extra time as well as some other limitations.

[Steve]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

I suppose Deduction might work for this. You could also use a Detect ability to create this.

[Netzilla]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

One of my players is a Paladin, the Other is a smoothie of sorts.

 

Both want to use a skill like sense motive. It seems there is a wealth of skills already in place. The paladin has: oratory, persuation, conversation, and seduction. I dont want to make it an Analyze skill. That forces the player to spend more.

 

What do I do for sense motive/detect lies?

 

There's any number of possible ways to do this depending on what kind of feel you're going for. Unfortunately, I'm not particularly familiar with D&D's Sense Motive, but if you're looking for a general way of telling if someone is lying to you or maybe just concealing the true or some such, here are some ideas:

 

As a Sense:

Detect Motivation 11- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Sense (10 pts)

 

Using Telepathy:

Telepathy 5d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (37 Active Points); Requires A PER Roll (-1), Only to detect target's current motivation (-1), No Range (-1/2), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4) (10 pts)

 

If you're not wanting to have the character buy a new skill/power for this, then it could be done within the existing list of skills the player has. Basically, they'd just make a skill vs skill roll as appropriate to the situation: Conversation during a normal conversation, Oratory if listening to a speech, Persuasion if someone is trying to convince them to do something, Seduction when being seduced, Tactics to spot a sneak attack, and so on. If they don't have a skill that fits the situation, have them make a Perception roll at a -1 to -3 penalty.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

One of my players is a Paladin, the Other is a smoothie of sorts.

 

Both want to use a skill like sense motive. It seems there is a wealth of skills already in place. The paladin has: oratory, persuation, conversation, and seduction. I dont want to make it an Analyze skill. That forces the player to spend more.

 

What do I do for sense motive/detect lies?

3e Skill Conversions

 

relevant text:

 

Sense Motive: This Skill doesn't have an exact match in the HERO System; its most closely an aspect of Conversation. However just for ease of use and to avoid doubling up on Conversation (which is a stronger match for other Skills), the Interrogation Skill is recommended; the GM should allow a casual "Interrogation" in the form of normal conversation to get a feel for if they are being lied to.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

Use Analyze and have it Analyze motive, perhaps?

[Kristopher]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

This is one of those situations where I think a skill exists as a shortcut around roleplaying and attention to detail.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

This is one of those situations where I think a skill exists as a shortcut around roleplaying and attention to detail.

 

Yeah, its basically an ability EVERYONE should have, but it falls into the separation of player and character problem.

 

Its one of those skills that arises because even if the PLAYER isnt too swift on the uptake or is naive / trusting, maybe their CHARACTER is alert and not naive /trusting.

 

Of course there are many different ways to handle it in the HERO System, and basically even if a character lacked a specific skill, a basic INT or PRE roll should cover it.

[Ryhope Wood]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

Use Analyze and have it Analyze motive' date=' perhaps?[/quote']

 

Spot on! See Analyze Motive on page 78 of The Ultimate Skill. It is an exact match for the D&D Sense Motive skill.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

Yeah' date=' its basically an ability EVERYONE should have, but it falls into the separation of player and character problem. [/quote']

 

There are skills everyone has - everyman skills. Some are better at them than others. They buy the skill up. Just as some people are better orators, conversationalists or seductresses, some are more able to discern the truth behind others' statements. The term "A good judge of character" comes to mind.

[runescience]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

hum. Analyze motive? I dont think spending more points on yet another skill solves the problem. I also dont think I need to by yet ANOTher hero book just for the sake of fixing an existing problem in the game system.

 

I think KS:hrike has the right Idea. Everyone should be able to identify a liar. Maybe a combination of 2 ideas. I think the Int roll might be a better Idea. Int roll with ego as a cascading skill or conversation as a cascading skill. Perception is literally for senses.

 

I dont believe this would do well for as a power for the average bloke. Also, I agree with others above that every man should have it, as well as bluff, which brings me to the next point. How do you bluff?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

One would think identifying the liar would depend on the lie being told. One should get a Perception roll to recognize when someone is telling a blatant untruth -- with a bonus if the character has direct experience that suggests the speaker is talking out of his you-know-what.

 

Of course, a good use of the Persuasion roll by a con-artist wouldn't necessarily involve a lie. One could be telling the truth for impure motives -- for example, one could describe his own abilities as a maker of traps quite truthfully, but in an effort to worm his way into your confidence to betray you or rob you blind. And just because someone is telling the truth doesn't mean he's telling the whole truth. A true Sense Motive skill would be essentially the same as a Detect for hostile or dishonest intent -- something that ought to be beyond the scope of all but the most specialized or magically attuned PCs.

[Markdoc]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

I have a chracter in the current FH game (Lamoniak du Moncu) who has exactly this power, bought as:

 

Detect Motivation, PER- (Unusual Group) (3 points), Discriminatory (5 points: only basic information, -1) for a total cost of 5 points

 

As noted, anyone can pick up on a bad liar, or can make a guess at someone's motivation. Skills like conversation can make it easier to pick this up. However, not everyone can detect a skilled liar, and picking up other cues is harder.

 

Even though he has a really high conversation roll, Lamoniak's player wanted something a little more concrete. I didn't make it a sense: he needs to actually observe or talk with the person for at least a half phase. Discriminatory is limited because he picks up only very basic cues like "this person is hiding it well, but he's really nervous" or "you get the impression that he doesn't like you much, even though he's being polite" not "You think he's leading you into a trap".

 

As written the power is essentially described "reading body language" so it complementary to conversation: it is not a substitute for Danger sense, Telepathy or spells like "detect enemy".

 

cheers, Mark

[Choldath]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

I dont believe this would do well for as a power for the average bloke. Also' date=' I agree with others above that every man should have it, as well as bluff, which brings me to the next point. How do you bluff?[/quote']

 

I think Bluff is the same monster as Sense Motive. You can do a lot of things with the D&D Bluff. Maybe a Multipower to explain them away.

 

Link to Skills on d20SRD.org

[Netzilla]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

How do you bluff?

 

I'd suggest using Persuasion, Conversation, Oratory, Gambling or some other skill depending on the situation (convincing the guard to let you through the gate, talking with the local inn keeper, addressing a crowd of on-lookers that you're really innocent of the crime the city watch is arresting you for, playing cards, etc). Again, it would be an opposed skill roll vs. the same skill on the part of the target. If either party lacks the needed skill, they could substitute a Presence or Ego roll at a -1 to -3 penalty depending on the circumstances (-1 for normal circumstances, -3 at least to have the guard let you through the gate while carrying a dead body).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

Acting makes logical sense as a Bluff skill in many circumstances.

 

To the complaint of "yet another skill", those D&D characters have how many skills they can max out per level? A human Wizard with an 18 INT gets 7 skill points and a human rogue, for whom receiving lots of skill points is a major ability, gets 13 if he has a 14 INT. Meanwhile, in Hero, a skill costs 3 points and is pretty effective from the outset. 8 points buys +1 with all of them, if you're a skillmonger. D&D skills tend to be broader than Hero skills, because you can't buy as many of them.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

From the same 3e skill conversion doc I linked to previously:

Bluff: Aspects of this Skill fall under several of the Interaction Skills; however Persuasion is generally the closest fit if you are on a budget. The Combat application of Bluff to do Feints is best handled using a new Skill introduced in The Ultimate Skill called Feint.

[runescience]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

I think netzilla nailed it there. It has to fall into a set of complimentary skills. Im going to pass these forum thread onto my players to read.

[runescience]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

oh no! i missed that link sorry, KS:hrike! your conversion document is GREAT. I will pass it on to my players.

 

Hugh Neilson: I was thinking about your point on broader skills in DND. I didn't know how to put that into words. You did a find job. Personally I think Hero games needs to pare down its skill list not bloat it out any more. In my opinion BLOATING is the reason that champions chars got bumped up to 350, from 250. We need a more streamlined edition... how bout... umm... republishing the big blue book? LOL.

[Ryhope Wood]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

Personally I think Hero games needs to pare down its skill list not bloat it out any more. In my opinion BLOATING is the reason that champions chars got bumped up to 350' date=' from 250. We need a more streamlined edition... how bout... umm... republishing the big blue book? LOL.[/quote']

 

Surely HERO System is just a toolkit, right? I mean you find the balance that you want between characteristics, skills, and powers. GURPS and RQ are skills orientated. D&D relies on feats and spells - which are essentially limited powers. GURPS and RQ tend to feel gritty when you play them. D&D more cinematic. You go with what flavour you want in your HERO game which is flexible enough to do either or something in between.

 

Not sure I follow your argument though about purchasing another skill for 3 points. All the alternatives are powers and they have a real point cost anyway - unless you give them to your players for free. Ask your players to think about the rationale behind why they can detect motives? Some may want to have a knack, a kinda sixth sense and the Detect power may work here. Others have learned it through experience - perhaps the hardway - and may be this is better done using the Analyze skill. Detecting motives is not a universal skill or talent that we all possess and it shouldn't work all the time. Often are ability grows with experience. If we all had this talent then we wouldn't have quite so many successful con artists and fraudsters on the loose.

 

BTW you don't need TUS to use Analyze Motive - simply apply the feel of Sense Motive from D&D to the existing Analyze skill in 5ER.

[runescience]

Re: Players wish to emulate dnd's sense motive.

 

Hi Rywood.

 

Pontification warning:

 

I see where you are coming from, I just don't hero as a toolkit. In it its purest form, just the core book alone you have a super hero game. You also sort of have a fantasy game, and bits and pieces of a scifi game. The power examples in the columns give illustration of that.

 

Grouse warning:

I love hero games. But every time I turn around they add more skills to the list. Thats not good.

 

My whole point is to try to make the game more simple instead of fishing around for ways to spend more points. I agree with you by the way, in trying to find out the intent sense motive.

 

Intent is everything. But, in a case where the average nitwit can tell a big fish, like: "zero down", "checks in the mail", "it wont hurt the first time", "sure you'll get your raise", "i was sure i read it in the rules".

 

I wouldn't go and buy analyze motive. The only time I'd ever build it was for a power above any normal circumstance. I guess I'm point cheap, and making the players spend more than they have to is not fair to the players.

 

Oh and by the way, I also thing that leaning to heavily on Int, ego roll, also hurts the skill system, because you are effectively going around skills rolls that the players failed to take. It cheats the players that spent points on the skills. So if some one wants to figure out if you are a dirty @#$%@# liar, they roll a conversation roll 6- (if it isnt an everyman skill in your game) and they come up empty handed. That doesnt look good either, it might frustrate the players. detecting lies seems to be a combo of conversation, intelligence, wisdom (as ego), persuation to a small degree.

 

 

I'm going with a few of the suggestions mentioned by other players. See, now wasn't that simple? I think I'll go smash my head into a brick