Suppress CSL

[Watchman-BN]

So...imagine I were creating a villain whose shtick was making superheroes more "normal" and less super. Lets further imagine the villain has some adjustment powers of various kinds.

 

What would you do for a suppress of Combat Skill Levels?

 

It is a single 'entry' in the book and, one could argue, a single 'special effect' of being good/practiced at combat (assuming the levels aren't bought through a focus, etc.).

 

One could alternately argue that each kind of CSL (2/3/5/8/penalty) is a different power.

 

Or, one could argue that there are a brazilian 'special effects' for CSL's and so the villain will need to buy variable affect plus variable special effects at the least.

 

My take: While I have some sypmathy with those who would respond "Damn, that's a powerful ability and should be hella expensive", realize I could accomplish the same thing and much more by targeting dex. But, I don't want to make the characters slower and more clumsy (not with this power at least). I want them to be more normal and less great at combat.

 

So, how would you buy such a power? Transform PC to PC-without-CSL's is certainly one option. That seems like overkill if the person has only one three point level, and too powerful for the skill master who still should have some CSL's while facing the villain.

 

Mind Control to make them forget they have the CSL's?

 

Or, would you be ok with Suppress CSL working against all (not bought through foci) CSL's?

[gmurie]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't do that. I'd like to reward the player who takes the skilled hero over the mass of characteristics and powers.

 

As GM you could just "handwave" it, just say that the PCs have no powers and are reduced to CHA maxima levels on all their attributes.

 

I never had a good experience doing anything of the kind. The players are there to play superheroes, and taking that away from them comes across as mean spirited unless you and the players have an exceptional rapport.

[Psylint]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

For my two-bits:

 

I have the hand wave/house rule that drained/suppressed/transferred as one sfx is pretty darned broad, so for example one could drain "resistance based defense" which would work against armor, forcefield, damage resistance, pd/ed regardless of sfx.

 

I'd say call the power "drain combat skill levels" at a +1/2 advantage and call it good. And instead of using insane cost to keep it balanced, use "judgment" to balance it out.

[OddHat]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

By the rules, he can't suppress or drain skills. It's too point efficient. If you don't want to give him a DEX drain to make heroes "normal", use a change environment to drop OCV and DCV.

 

Pretty much by definition, the guy who sunk his points into skills rather than powers is the "normal" of the bunch anyway.

[Rune]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

A Transformation attack could deprive a character of his CSL since that power essentially rewrites a character. Depending upon how long the loss is supposed to last, you could take an appropriate limitation.

[tancred]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

You could use the Optional Rules for Negative Combat Skill Levels (5ER, pages 54-5), Negative Penalty Skill Levels (5ER, page 66), and/or Negative Skill Levels (5ER page 70).

 

The Negative Combat Skill Levels rule, in particular, seems like it would do just what you're describing.

 

It's not wildly cheap, but not as expensive as Variable Special Effect and so on. And while Optional, it is a rule, not a rules change.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

A warning to the intended user: this concept runs a very high risk of crossing into "GM Railroad" territory. While negating powers makes sense IC, negating skills and the results of them pretty much requires pure GM Fiat.

 

So, consider carefully *why* you want a villain who can negate CSLs.

[Balabanto]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Yeah, I wouldn't do anything. The classic comic book situation here says this.

 

"Hah, fools, I have suppressed all of your powers. You can do nothing to stop me!"

 

tap...tap...tap...

 

"Excuse me? My name is Golden Phoenix Fist. I have no powers. And you need a dentists appointment..."

 

POW!

[OddHat]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

A warning to the intended user: this concept runs a very high risk of crossing into "GM Railroad" territory. While negating powers makes sense IC, negating skills and the results of them pretty much requires pure GM Fiat.

 

So, consider carefully *why* you want a villain who can negate CSLs.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't do anything. The classic comic book situation here says this.

 

"Hah, fools, I have suppressed all of your powers. You can do nothing to stop me!"

 

tap...tap...tap...

 

"Excuse me? My name is Golden Phoenix Fist. I have no powers. And you need a dentists appointment..."

 

POW!

 

Exactly. Power negation's story telling purpose is to demonstrate why Batman is tougher than Superman, and that Superman is still a hero even without his powers. It's not there to take Batman down a peg.

 

To do that, you drug him, which is among other things a Dex and SPD drain.

[Watchman-BN]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Well, 3 cheers for consistency. I think this is the 3rd time in a row I've asked for input on how to do something, to get 50% replies saying 'here's how I would do it' and the other 50% saying 'don't do it' (railroad GM, abuse, against the rules, and so forth).

 

So, 3rd time in a row: thanks to those who offered help. You allowed me to clarify in my mind why I was approaching it a certain way.

 

To extend the other side of the conversation a bit (for those who are interested), here's a few observations during my lunchbreak:

 

1) People don't seem to mind turning heroes into Frogs or Statues and the like (Transform), but removing their CSL's by the same mechanic sets off warning signs?!? Is it really your opinion that players are fine with being frogs or puppets (or cursed with unluck, or pick any example of a transform in or outside the book ), but you temporarily mess with my CSL's and you're a goshdarned railroad GM! ?

 

2) The same idea applies to Dex/Speed/Ego drain. I can turn the players into gibbering piles of goo with -30 stats. But, if I leave them unscathed, save for missing their CSL's, that screams abuse and railroadiness? The only way I can parse that logic is because the former is explicitly (extensively) covered in the rules and the latter is explicitly forbidden. The defenses are the same (power defense), the mechanic is the same, but the impact to the heroes is much worse for a dex drain, because all their dex based skills are tanked, they go more slowly compared to the villains, and eventually have to make dex rolls to even move.

 

3)Other methods don't have the right special affect for what I want.

To make a Meta (temporarily) more normal:

Drain dex: disproportionately affects the bricks and the speedsters/martial artist. Doesn't normalize them in any meaningful way.

Change Environment: Penalizes those who don't have CSL's (extra training or skill in combat) as much as those who don't. Negatively affects the cops in the fight and the laser rifle with a targeting scope as much as it does the Metas...unless I complicate things with Selective.

Dex Aid, targeted at the villain team, with limitations such that it only provides OCV/DCV in the amount needed to offset the heroes CSL. That's close, but a bookkeeping and mechanics mess, and also makes the villains more difficult to hit even for normals.

Negative Levels Very close here (Thanks Tancred!), although I'd want to add a limitation that it can only add Negative levels up to the amount the PC had positive ones. By the time you have a ranged, targeted, relatively long lasting ability to remove CSL's that doesn't otherwise affect a character, you're pretty much talking about a suppress CSL power, though.

But, yeah, its in the rules, so that's good.

 

4) A partial metagame argument: I do understand that you 'can't drain skills because its too efficient.' That puts CSL's in a weird place. They act as a proxy for Dex, which other skills don't do (the most obvious exception is MA damage classes which partially proxy for Str). And, they have a direct, exclusive, non-ambiguous effect on attack roll resolution, which is otherwise the domain of powers (or talents). So they are a combat mechanic, and act more or less like power or stats, but cannot be affected by adjustment powers.

[OddHat]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Well' date=' 3 cheers for consistency. I think this is the 3rd time in a row I've asked for input on [i']how[/i] to do something, to get 50% replies saying 'here's how I would do it' and the other 50% saying 'don't do it' (railroad GM, abuse, against the rules, and so forth).

 

Sounds about standard for rules questions.

 

1) People don't seem to mind turning heroes into Frogs or Statues and the like (Transform), but removing their CSL's by the same mechanic sets off warning signs?!? Is it really your opinion that players are fine with being frogs or puppets (or cursed with unluck, or pick any example of a transform in or outside the book ), but you temporarily mess with my CSL's and you're a goshdarned railroad GM! ?

 

I don't recall anyone objecting to a Transformation Attack to make "heroes" into "normals". It's within the rules. The SFX is odd, as a highly skilled character is a "normal" in most comic book campaigns, but your campaign, your business. If you want it to be short term, declare that the healing condition is "Heals after five minutes", or whatever length of time you like.

 

The only way I can parse that logic is because the former is explicitly (extensively) covered in the rules and the latter is explicitly forbidden

 

As to the meat of the comment, "it's against the rules" is a fair cop on a board discussing an RPG. You can change the rules as you like in your campaign; that's your call. Just be clear about it with your players.

 

3)Other methods don't have the right special affect for what I want.

To make a Meta (temporarily) more normal:

Drain dex: disproportionately affects the bricks and the speedsters/martial artist. Doesn't normalize them in any meaningful way.

 

So use the Transform.

 

Change Environment: Penalizes those who don't have CSL's (extra training or skill in combat) as much as those who don't. Negatively affects the cops in the fight and the laser rifle with a targeting scope as much as it does the Metas...unless I complicate things with Selective.

 

Why shouldn't it target cops as well as skilled Heroes? Skill is skill, unless the specific SFX of the character say its a power. However, you can always pop on a -1/4 limit "Only vs Metas" and then decide as GM who's a "Meta" and who isn't, based on whatever criteria you like.

 

4) A partial metagame argument: I do understand that you 'can't drain skills because its too efficient.'

 

Again, them's the rules. You can change them in your game if you like; your players will let you know how they feel about the changes.

[ScrewySquirrel]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Well' date=' 3 cheers for consistency. I think this is the 3rd time in a row I've asked for input on [i']how[/i] to do something, to get 50% replies saying 'here's how I would do it' and the other 50% saying 'don't do it' (railroad GM, abuse, against the rules, and so forth).

 

So, 3rd time in a row: thanks to those who offered help. You allowed me to clarify in my mind why I was approaching it a certain way.

 

To extend the other side of the conversation a bit (for those who are interested), here's a few observations during my lunchbreak:

 

1) People don't seem to mind turning heroes into Frogs or Statues and the like (Transform), but removing their CSL's by the same mechanic sets off warning signs?!? Is it really your opinion that players are fine with being frogs or puppets (or cursed with unluck, or pick any example of a transform in or outside the book ), but you temporarily mess with my CSL's and you're a goshdarned railroad GM! ?

 

2) The same idea applies to Dex/Speed/Ego drain. I can turn the players into gibbering piles of goo with -30 stats. But, if I leave them unscathed, save for missing their CSL's, that screams abuse and railroadiness? The only way I can parse that logic is because the former is explicitly (extensively) covered in the rules and the latter is explicitly forbidden. The defenses are the same (power defense), the mechanic is the same, but the impact to the heroes is much worse for a dex drain, because all their dex based skills are tanked, they go more slowly compared to the villains, and eventually have to make dex rolls to even move.

 

3)Other methods don't have the right special affect for what I want.

To make a Meta (temporarily) more normal:

Drain dex: disproportionately affects the bricks and the speedsters/martial artist. Doesn't normalize them in any meaningful way.

Change Environment: Penalizes those who don't have CSL's (extra training or skill in combat) as much as those who don't. Negatively affects the cops in the fight and the laser rifle with a targeting scope as much as it does the Metas...unless I complicate things with Selective.

Dex Aid, targeted at the villain team, with limitations such that it only provides OCV/DCV in the amount needed to offset the heroes CSL. That's close, but a bookkeeping and mechanics mess, and also makes the villains more difficult to hit even for normals.

Negative Levels Very close here (Thanks Tancred!), although I'd want to add a limitation that it can only add Negative levels up to the amount the PC had positive ones. By the time you have a ranged, targeted, relatively long lasting ability to remove CSL's that doesn't otherwise affect a character, you're pretty much talking about a suppress CSL power, though.

But, yeah, its in the rules, so that's good.

 

4) A partial metagame argument: I do understand that you 'can't drain skills because its too efficient.' That puts CSL's in a weird place. They act as a proxy for Dex, which other skills don't do (the most obvious exception is MA damage classes which partially proxy for Str). And, they have a direct, exclusive, non-ambiguous effect on attack roll resolution, which is otherwise the domain of powers (or talents). So they are a combat mechanic, and act more or less like power or stats, but cannot be affected by adjustment powers.

 

 

I built a character based on the City of Heroes 'Willpower' tanker defense, with 'Steely Gaze' as a -3 OCV Negative Skill Levels (Usable on others, Cone AOE) which was essentially his staredown unnerving an opponent. It also fits the "I'm outnumbered 9-to-1, I have them right where I want them!" of many action heroes

[Metaphysician]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

What Oddhat said, pretty much. If it effects skill, it should effect everyone regardless of whether they have a 'PC' or 'Super' tag under their name. . . and if it effects 'powered skills', it really shouldn't do a damn thing to Batman types and others who don't *have* powers.

 

As for why something that magically effects the PCs CSLs without also effecting the nearby cop's CSLs is bad? Because it screws over the player in an arbitrary fashion. "So. . . we shouldn't rely on our powers. . . or our *skills*. . . what exactly *should* we rely on, dumb luck?" The only 'lesson' it could conceivably teach is 'humility', and only in the sense that 'sometimes, you just get screwed.' Generally, this is not something you should do to players who you expect to remain your players.

[Watchman-BN]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

I could probably turn this into a question in the rules forum. I think there's a fair argument that CSL's should be susceptible to adjustment powers since they mimic stats/powers which *are* drainable. But, there's plenty of others who can take up that banner if they want to. Ironically, I'm normally the 'letter of the law' rules guy when I read those threads.

 

What I find really interesting is the reaction to the very idea of draining CSL's. Maybe a couple of people came to the thread after being in the "you know you're a bad GM thread" and they had more spleen to vent.

 

Still, I can hardly conceive of players having that reaction. I do realize that experiences and players vary, but someone who would be upset by suppress CSL to the point of leaving a game over it (!) seems like the sort of person who would go nuts at any 'unusual' power, bent rule, or by being put at any disadvantage or situation where they can't just 'bash dat bad guy with my awesome list of powerses'.

 

The list of things must be quite long that a GM "ought not" do "to" those players. (For I've no doubt the 'adventures' are "done to them, and they feel victimized by the villainous GM and react to the scenario as something being inflicted on them rather than a story they're participating in.)

 

So, no transporting to a magical realm where the blaster guy's laser rifle becomes a magic bow and the PoweredArmor character gets a set of plate mail. I paid points for a blaster, dammit!

 

Likewise, no villain using a shrink ray to make all the characters small, to the point where the 5d6RKA is proportionately weaker and barely enough to fend off a hungry cat. How dare you intentionally humilate me!

 

And it seems as if every scenario would play out as a contest between skillful writeups of character sheets (who happen to have a name at the top of the page), not as interactions of real people who happen to have great powers, and the great responsibility to match.

 

So, no, Metaphysician, those aren't my players and that isn't my game. I'm much more aligned with the half-dozen folks who would 'hand-wave' it, house rule it, or use optional rules, in order to not let the mechanics get in the way of an interesting idea. I do take your warning to heart, but it mostly makes me appreciate my guys even more.

 

Of course, if I'm wrong, there will be some folks posting on the Player Finder board soon with the message "looking for a game in Denver without a sumunabtch railroading GM..."

[Metaphysician]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Just to correct something, no one here really objects strenuously to the idea of Suppressing CSLs. I can think of several ways it could be done, reasonably.

 

Its the idea of magically making the PCs abilities worthless with no rhyme or reason. If it works on a PC, it should work on an NPC with the same special effect. If it disables CSLs even based on pure skill, it should do so equally to 1000 point demigods and 150 point heroic cops. And if your plot requires suppressing all the skills of the Non Powered Superhero, consider for a second what that means for the other team members, who lose all their skills *and* their powers.

[Balabanto]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

You don't buy that as negative skill levels. Here's how you buy that "Steely Gaze" kind of power.

 

Steely Gaze: Change Environment, -3 OCV and -3 DCV, Cone (0), X16 hexes, 0 END (+1/2), Total Real 75 points.

 

Without Emotional Impact: -1/4, doesn't work versus blind people or creatures that can't sense it.

 

Company of Equals: -1/4, doesn't work vs. Soldiers, Assassins, and the similarly ruthless and/or experienced

 

Similarly Focussed: -1/4, doesn't work vs. martial artists or similar "badass" characters.

 

Focussed by Hatred: Remove the 0 End limitation and make them pay END for it.

 

I still think you shouldn't do it. It's kinda broken.

[Dreadnought]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

I think what people's gut reaction against supress CSLs comes from is that you haven't given the sfx for the power, so people are thinking of it as an arbirtary "and now you have no skills!" move from the GM, which would annoy most players. I know it would annoy me!

 

One of the problems I see with "suppressing" (or however you decide to do it) is that it makes the heroes incompetent. I will put up with a lot of things being done to one of my characters. A normal "make supers more normal" method is drain super-powers, which is great once in a while. It lets the character show that he isn't a hero because of his powers but because of his driving motivation to *insert heroic motivation here*. He may be powerless, but he's still competent. Take away a characters CSLs without explaining why, and he becomes superpowers on a stick (an exageration but you get the idea). Suddenly the fight is about taking a swing and praying for a hit so your superstrength can actually do something. Victory becomes a matter of luck, rather than skill, and if there's one thing players like, it's to feel competent.

 

Of course, if you have a rationale for WHY you're doing it, the suppress becomes more palatable. It's all in the presentation.

[ScrewySquirrel]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

You don't buy that as negative skill levels. Here's how you buy that "Steely Gaze" kind of power.

 

Steely Gaze: Change Environment, -3 OCV and -3 DCV, Cone (0), X16 hexes, 0 END (+1/2), Total Real 75 points.

 

Without Emotional Impact: -1/4, doesn't work versus blind people or creatures that can't sense it.

 

Company of Equals: -1/4, doesn't work vs. Soldiers, Assassins, and the similarly ruthless and/or experienced

 

Similarly Focussed: -1/4, doesn't work vs. martial artists or similar "badass" characters.

 

Focussed by Hatred: Remove the 0 End limitation and make them pay END for it.

 

I still think you shouldn't do it. It's kinda broken.

 

 

just a note: It didn't do anything to DCV, just OCV. (call it the Jedi effect: Imperial Stormtroopers are very elite troops (Tantive IV, Hoth) but not when a Jedi is around (Death Star, Endor) -- then they miss like mad.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Problem is, there's no reason why the STs become unable to hit anything intrinsic to the characters, in that example. Its pure plot fiat.

 

If you want to give a Jedi a "hard to hit" power, its a much more coherent idea to give them *better DCV*, not a power that reduces other people's OCV.

 

A general rule: don't think "I want to produce ____ game effect, what mechanic do I use?" Think "I want to produce _____ actual in-story effect, what mechanic do I use?" IOW, don't say "I want to reduce the other guy's OCV, how do I do that?", say "I want to make its really hard for another guy to hit me, how do I do that?"

[Tonio]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Problem is, there's no reason why the STs become unable to hit anything intrinsic to the characters, in that example. Its pure plot fiat.

 

If you want to give a Jedi a "hard to hit" power, its a much more coherent idea to give them *better DCV*, not a power that reduces other people's OCV.

 

A general rule: don't think "I want to produce ____ game effect, what mechanic do I use?" Think "I want to produce _____ actual in-story effect, what mechanic do I use?" IOW, don't say "I want to reduce the other guy's OCV, how do I do that?", say "I want to make its really hard for another guy to hit me, how do I do that?"

 

Well, the Jedi effect, if I'm not mistaken, actually makes the STs miss like mad, and not just when they're shooting the Jedis. In any case, it's a completely valid concept: my opponents are so unnerved by my presence that they shoot timidly and with lack of confidence, making them miss more often. I completely agree with the general rule you mention; SFX should always come before game mechanics. That might not be the case here, tho.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Change Environment can impose CV penalties.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Well' date=' the Jedi effect, if I'm not mistaken, actually makes the STs miss like mad, and not just when they're shooting the Jedis. In any case, it's a completely valid concept: my opponents are so unnerved by my presence that they shoot timidly and with lack of confidence, making them miss more often. I completely agree with the general rule you mention; SFX should always come before game mechanics. That might not be the case here, tho.[/quote']

 

Mechanically possible, but my point is, there's *no* evidence for this in the movies. . . and if it were present, you'd think Order 66 would have gone way differently.

[Dreadnought]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Mechanically possible' date=' but my point is, there's *no* evidence for this in the movies. . . and if it were present, you'd think Order 66 would have gone way differently.[/quote']

 

Order 66 was carried out by clone troopers, not storm troopers. The difference is subtle, but there. Just think about it... STs are described as extremely accurate, but as soon as Luke or Obi-Wan show up, they can't hit the broad side of a bantha! It must be a force sensitivity thing. Some shift in the training between the ep. 3 and ep. 4 means that STs have no resistance to the subtle mental influence of Jedi.

 

Although that seems more like a Mind Control, AoE Radius, Set Effect (Try not to hit me), Only Versus Stormtroopers. An... interesting build, to say the least.

[Tech]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

I have no problem with a villain being able to temporarily remove CSL's from a character. Some defining of the power is needed though. To me, it sounds more like a subtle Mind Control that basically makes the target forget how skilled they are. I guess Transformation works but it sounds like too much cost of a power for too little effect. I prefer Mind Control because it sounds more like a mental attack to make someone no longer be skillful; that way it can work on anyone, from a superhero to a skilled detective and at the same time, it can be 'fought' (i.e. high Ego, Mental Def or both) where the target says: "Wait a minute, I know I'm skilled."

[Metaphysician]

Re: Suppress CSL

 

Order 66 was carried out by clone troopers, not storm troopers. The difference is subtle, but there. Just think about it... STs are described as extremely accurate, but as soon as Luke or Obi-Wan show up, they can't hit the broad side of a bantha! It must be a force sensitivity thing. Some shift in the training between the ep. 3 and ep. 4 means that STs have no resistance to the subtle mental influence of Jedi.

 

Although that seems more like a Mind Control, AoE Radius, Set Effect (Try not to hit me), Only Versus Stormtroopers. An... interesting build, to say the least.

 

Or it could just be the exact same "nameless mooks can't hit the broad side of a barn whenever name characters are on screen" effect that dozens of other movies have, none of them with Jedi.

 

It just boils down to the fact that its easier to film poor accuracy than great dodging.