Do opposed skill rolls work?

[Sean Waters]

Someone who is far better at maths than I can hopefully point out the flaw in my thinking on this one.

 

Two people are gambling. They have 11- gambling skill. The game is one of straight chance – each has an equal chance of winning. Someone has to win. I’d assume we use opposed skill rolls.

 

Say Gambler A rolls, and gets 11. That is a success, with no extra points. He had a 62.5% chance of getting that result.

 

We take that result, and apply it as a penalty to Gambler B. Gambler B also rolls 11 He had a 62.5% chance of getting that result. He wins. He wins, despite the fact that they rolled the same and had the same skill.

 

It seems to me that the opposed skill system is biased in favour of whoever goes second.

 

I appreciate that in this instance you could have just flipped a coin, but that is not the point; it could have been two people arguing and trying to persuade the other to their point of view, and the skill totals may have been different. The example is simplistic but uses the mechanics of the game. Simple numbers are used so that the underlying mechanics are clear. Am I looking at this all wrong?

[Alibear]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Why did the 2nd guy win?

[jtelson]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Someone who is far better at maths than I can hopefully point out the flaw in my thinking on this one.

 

Two people are gambling. They have 11- gambling skill. The game is one of straight chance – each has an equal chance of winning. Someone has to win. I’d assume we use opposed skill rolls.

 

Say Gambler A rolls, and gets 11. That is a success, with no extra points. He had a 62.5% chance of getting that result.

 

We take that result, and apply it as a penalty to Gambler B. Gambler B also rolls 11 He had a 62.5% chance of getting that result. He wins. He wins, despite the fact that they rolled the same and had the same skill.

 

It seems to me that the opposed skill system is biased in favour of whoever goes second.

 

I appreciate that in this instance you could have just flipped a coin, but that is not the point; it could have been two people arguing and trying to persuade the other to their point of view, and the skill totals may have been different. The example is simplistic but uses the mechanics of the game. Simple numbers are used so that the underlying mechanics are clear. Am I looking at this all wrong?

 

No, you're correct the system's set up to favor whoever's resisting an action (It's 1 skill point easier to defuse a bomb than to 'fuse a bomb, etc). Unfortunately for actions where it isn't as clear who's acting vs resisting it can become a question of who goes first (generally I let the PC's 'resist') although with gambling or other situations where 'push' is a valid outcome, I have both parties roll and ties are a no loss/gain result.

[jtelson]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Why did the 2nd guy win?

 

5Re page 44 on Skill vs Skill contests.

[Alibear]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Ah well, I'll be classing that as a draw.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Ah well' date=' I'll be classing that as a draw.[/quote']

 

Indeed, but the rules won't

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

No' date=' you're correct the system's set up to favor whoever's resisting an action (It's 1 skill point easier to defuse a bomb than to 'fuse a bomb, etc). Unfortunately for actions where it isn't as clear who's acting vs resisting it can become a question of who goes first (generally I let the PC's 'resist') although with gambling or other situations where 'push' is a valid outcome, I have both parties roll and ties are a no loss/gain result.[/quote']

 

Thank goodness I'm not going mad.

 

Well, not faster than I thought, anyway.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Someone who is far better at maths than I can hopefully point out the flaw in my thinking on this one.

Okay. The flaw in your thinking is in using Gambling to determine the outcome of a game that you describe as "straight chance" where either "has an equal chance of winning." In that scenario, by definition, Gambling does not apply. You've already determined that each has an equal chance to win, indicating that their Gambling Skills can't affect the outcome.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Okay. The flaw in your thinking is in using Gambling to determine the outcome of a game that you describe as "straight chance" where either "has an equal chance of winning." In that scenario' date=' by definition, Gambling does not apply. You've already determined that each has an equal chance to win, indicating that their Gambling Skills can't affect the outcome. [/quote']

 

 

OK, good point. Let me slightly amend that by removing the reference to straight chance, or at least clarifying it. There still remains all other things (including the skill of the gamblers) being the same an equal chance of a win or a loss in relation to each player, and there has to be a win or a loss. Imagine a hand of draw poker where the suits are also ranked, so even on a high card, someone wins. In that case the roll represents how the cards fall, and there is an equal chance of each getting the better hand, but the gambling skill is still relevant because the players are betting and bluff is a vital component of poker.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

OK' date=' good point. Let me slightly amend that by removing the reference to straight chance, or at least clarifying it. There still remains all other things (including the skill of the gamblers) being the same an equal chance of a win or a loss in relation to each player, and there has to be a win or a loss. Imagine a hand of draw poker where the suits are also ranked, so even on a high card, someone wins. In that case the roll represents how the cards fall, and there is an equal chance of each getting the better hand, but the gambling skill is still relevant because the players are betting and bluff is a vital component of poker.[/quote']

 

In this case, I would go with the argument that the rolls aren't opposed, until you get into something like Poker, and we'll go ahead and assume the most currently popular of Poker games, Texas Hold'Em, so named for the two cards you 'hold' as the house cards fall. My question would be, "How deep a simulation are you looking for?"

 

If we have five cats at a table, all with 11- rolls, and they all roll clock work elevens, does the guy who went last, win? Doubtful. In instances where the winner isn't clear, I usually call for a roll off, or I may (being a house ruling nutter) go with using a whole different stat altogether. What I'm driving it as that the skill system (any skill system) will 'break down' when you try to simulate real-world activities; common and dramatic sense need to apply as well.

 

For example, "gambling" as a skill can mean any number of things depending in part on the GM. Does it account for a high PRE and someone's ability to bluff? Should it? Is it just raw luck in the case of poker? Should they even get a "roll" at all if they're playing, say, roulette? It's really GMO in the more esoteric cases.

[jtelson]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

I think perhaps the example is causing some hangups. Replace Gambling with PS:Chess or any other scenario that's opposed but not necessarily resisted and has little or no random element.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

I think perhaps the example is causing some hangups. Replace Gambling with PS:Chess or any other scenario that's opposed but not necessarily resisted and has little or no random element.

 

Good point . The issue here is not supposed to be my inability to think of a good example but the mechanical problem that 'going second yields a substantial advantage'.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Good point . The issue here is not supposed to be my inability to think of a good example but the mechanical problem that 'going second yields a substantial advantage'.

 

Not if you're playing black it doesn't. Is there a penalty for that?

[jtelson]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Not if you're playing black it doesn't. Is there a penalty for that?

 

In the event that this wasn't a joke, It's the mechanic that's being discussed, try not to get hung up on the specifics of any given example.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

In the event that this wasn't a joke' date=' It's the mechanic that's being discussed, try not to get hung up on the specifics of any given example.[/quote']

 

Pardon me, I'll go rollst my eyes somewheres.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

First - you don't have a 62.5% chance of rolling an 11. You have a 62.5% chance of rolling any number from 3-11.

 

Second - consider the second roller the House (not just as the example of Gambling, but as the person being rolled Against they gain some inherent favor for simplicity sake) and ties go to the House. Just like in Risk ties go to the Defender. It's just to simplify things.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

First - you don't have a 62.5% chance of rolling an 11. You have a 62.5% chance of rolling any number from 3-11.

 

Second - consider the second roller the House (not just as the example of Gambling, but as the person being rolled Against they gain some inherent favor for simplicity sake) and ties go to the House. Just like in Risk ties go to the Defender. It's just to simplify things.

 

Simplifier. This is why no one takes you seriously, GA. You have to make everything steam lined and straight forward. Where's the fun in that?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

First - you don't have a 62.5% chance of rolling an 11. You have a 62.5% chance of rolling any number from 3-11.

 

Second - consider the second roller the House (not just as the example of Gambling, but as the person being rolled Against they gain some inherent favor for simplicity sake) and ties go to the House. Just like in Risk ties go to the Defender. It's just to simplify things.

 

But the second roller may not be the house. I think the poker game example is a good one. Is there some reason that two players with equal skill playing a fair game would not have an equal chance at a victory? Assuming that they should each have the same chance at a victory, how do we make opposed rolls reflect this? Someone has to roll first.

 

Perhaps a better approach in dealing with opposed skill rolls is to allow the character whose skill roll was the most successful to win, with ties resulting in a tie (chess match stalemated, for example) where this is possible, and a very close match (eg. moving into overtime; a photo finish, etc.) requiring another roll where a tie is not possible, such as Sean's example.

[Outsider]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

I use opposed skill rolls when one character is acting in opposition to anotherm where there is a defender and an attacker. When characters are merely in competition with eachother, I use a skill roll off. Whoever makes the roll by the most does better. If they tie, they tie. If you need to produce a single winner, just have the characters who tied roll again.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

But the second roller may not be the house. I think the poker game example is a good one. Is there some reason that two players with equal skill playing a fair game would not have an equal chance at a victory? Assuming that they should each have the same chance at a victory, how do we make opposed rolls reflect this? Someone has to roll first.

 

Perhaps a better approach in dealing with opposed skill rolls is to allow the character whose skill roll was the most successful to win, with ties resulting in a tie (chess match stalemated, for example) where this is possible, and a very close match (eg. moving into overtime; a photo finish, etc.) requiring another roll where a tie is not possible, such as Sean's example.

 

Or you can elect a default. It's arbitrary, but you could decide that whomever has the higher skill, i.e., spent more points on it, would win a tie in that case. Not unlike the SPD chart breakdown; if we have DEX 15 and SPD 3, then our INT determines who goes first. This may seem to arbitrary for some, i.e., "Why not let the stat determine it?" but I'm not being specific, per se, as much as I'm saying other options for resolution exist once the dice are cast.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

In the case of equal chances where they aren't directly opposed I would call draws a no win - in Poker (as an example) if both hands have nothing or are equal there are several rules to deal with this, depending. you can High/Low, split the pot, or leave it for the next round.

 

Skill Vs Skill makes the assumption the situation involves the idea that someone will succeed and someone will fail - in places where it's possible to do neither, you either put Tie To The Defender (in which case the Attacker is the one who initiated the ordeal, by suggesting the game or taking a proactive action) or use a bit of Common Sense and go with a Tie.

 

Also remember, a Skill Vs Skill may not be a single action, it may represent an entire series of actions or ongoing conflict in which case I would use a Tied Success to go another round until I have a decisive outcome. It doesn't need to be done in one roll.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

There a few things wrong with your example, however lets avoid getting bogged down in the example. I do obsessively have to point out that your 62.5% assumption of 11 is wrong -- its 11 or less; the odds of actually rolling an 11 and no other result are less.

 

That aside resisted skill rolls work when you use them for what they are intended for, and not as well when you deviate from that. Some questions to think about in general when deciding on if opposed skill rolls are appropriate:

 

* Who is resisting who? If two (or more) people arent really directly opposing one another with one side initiating and one side reacting then resisted skill rolls are not 100% appropriate. You can use one if you like, but it favors the "defender", or as you put it the person that went second, which is pretty consistent throughout the game.

 

* Is it a "fair" contest, or does one side or the other have an advantage or disadvantage? If its a truly fair contest, meaning 50% chance for either side to win or lose with no other factors, then a roll off is not going to model that correctly. Try flipping a coin instead.

 

* Is the outcome essentially random, and not influenced by "skill" or knowledge? If so a rolloff of any sort is probably not appropriate, with the exception of Luck or any extraordinary powers that might be used to influence the results (like IPE TK and Roulette).

 

* Is the action extended or immediate? If the outcome is decided by a single round of rolls, randomness is going to have more of an impact. If it is an extended action with a target success margin that requires several resisted rolls then the better skill roll should statistically have an advantage. It also removes the attack / defender bias since the involved parties are not rolling against each other, they are rolling against a margin of success.

 

* Is it really a straight up my skill vs your skill contest, or is it a more complex / multi-faceted competition? Another way to look at this point, is the outcome something that favors dramatic resolution, or abstract (rolling dice) resolution and in both cases to what degree? A single roll, resisted or not, is abstract; it can also be used to measure success over different increments of time and scale; the more abstract you get, the less a bias or even being resisted at all really matters. If the outcome in question is dramatically important on the other hand you might actually be looking at a variety of skill and characteristic rolls both resisted and not for a single atomic outcome; ie a single hand of poker could be handled with many rolls, and not a resisted Gambling roll at all. The means of resolution most appropriate is also likely variable depending on the needs of the story; one poker game might take all night to resolve on one hand, and an entire tournament could be summed up with a single weighted roll to see how a character fared, and anything in between.

 

There are more nuances, but Im out of time; hopefully some of this made sense.

[casualplayer]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Cheez, what a dry premise. I don't think Sean gambles much.

 

Firstly, no one won. Both players achieved equally meaning they drew, pushed, have to keep playing til a winner is determined or, if the house had a hand in, they both lost! Depends on the game.

 

Secondly, no complimentary skills. WTF? Which player has Conversation to get the other player to spill some secrets? Which one has Acting to maintain his poker face throughout? Eidetic Memory Only for which cards have been seen? IMNSHO Presence Attacks work wonderfully at the card table. I live for the game against the player who read a lot of books about the subject (has the Gambling skill) but has no other cards up his sleeve.

 

But let's stray away from the example. The whole point of rolling the dice is to see if the protagonists succeed. The antagonists' rolls are just to determine if there are any proactive modifiers to the protagonists' rolls. Unless you are an adversarial GM or things devolve to the PCs coming to blows, the skill vs. skill system works ok.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

The skill v skill system is supposed to resolve conflicts where one skill is being used against another, and I don't think that it does that as well as it could..

 

Forget games. 2 people arguing, trying to convicne the other of their point. Say on a message board

 

Now I can see that if they both roll their 'Persuade' skill and get the same result, then that exchange has not resulted in a victory for either. Continue or stop.

 

That is not what the rules say though, it is a consensus house rule; sensible, but not canon. the rules would have whoever rolled second winning th eexchange.

 

My biggest gripe though is deciding who is the 'active' participant. Even the example in the book of PER v Stealth seems fraught with difficulty, even if the rules position is clear. I can see a good argument for either participant being 'active'.

 

There is a real advantage, as far as I can see, to rolling second, so this is important.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Actually, I've pondered putting together a 'Verbal Martial Arts' article for Digital HERO to address this exact problem. I suppose now is a good a time as any to start writing it.