Do opposed skill rolls work?

[Christopher]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Well what the system assumes is that you are TRYING to resist an interaction attempt. If someone emails you with an offer: would you like a $2' date='000,000 cut of funds someone important is trying to smuggle out of Nigeria entirely legitimately, just send us your bank details!' you might decide you WANT the money and that nothing could possibly go wrong. They you are not trying to resist so the attempt automatically succeeds.[/quote']

Nope, it depends on the Skill. The 2 Million $ is really old. Everbody who knows of Spam wil likely recieve a Bonus. It's basically a 8- Atempt at Persausion: Give me your Bank Number. You only fall for it when you do not know of it or want the money so bad (penalties to your roll).

 

That is why I think that we need a different way to address Interaction Skill use: if you so not make an INT roll to realise that the whole thing is incredibly dodgy then you won;t make an EGO roll to resist the attemt. PCs of course do not need to make the INT roll if the player decides they want nothing to do with it - they go straight to the EGO roll, or simply click 'delete on the email and don't even risk that.

 

As Hugh says - all those getting scammed are NPCs - but, but, but what if the scam is less obvious? What if the approach is in person and the story is not so well worn, you might go for it. You might not even TRY to resist.

That the thing: You always resist an atempt. You have a certain standpoint on anything. When a foreign person ask you for your banknumber on the street, you won't answer. The same thing with a well formulated e-mail and without knowledge of those scams: Totally other story. He sucessfully convinced you/you failed your ego roll. If it is because of his skill/good story or because of your phsychological vulnerability to the specif scam used is just detail.

The only time you can't resist is when your EGO is 0 (se 6E1 for this), you just execute what is said to you.

 

That would mean that someone with Familiarity Chess is worse than someone with no skill. What I'd do if one had the skill and one did not is rill and' date=' if they succeed then they win and if they fail then it comes down to a straight 50/50 chance.[/quote']

I know the rules of Chess. The entire. I have a PS: Chess of at least 8-. Can't play this game for my life.

 

Same comments apply: Familiarity (Poker) is a completely wasted point. I know a little knowledge can be dangerous but you should not be penalised for knowing something about the game.

Familarity give you a 25,93% chance of Success. 25.93 > 20%. Familarity cost one CP. For a second point you either get Proficiency Gambling (10- for ever game; 50% chance) or Skill Base PS: Poker (11- or better; 62.50, more likely 13- = 83.8 %)

 

The question if you want to be the guy who rolls first is irrelevant. You are at your point in the row, like you are at your SPD and Dex in Combat. It's fair because everyone else will be in that same postion within the next four rounds..

 

Think about the set-up for the 3 card monte con: You have the dealer, who may or may not be using sleight of hand; and two assistants, who pretend to be players and "win" a few times. If the casual observer has never heard of the scam, they may be tricked into thinking it's a pure game of skill/chance and on the level, play a few times and win, and then plunk down a bunch of money, just when they get good and hooked in, and then the dealer reels in the "fish". Only after the player walks away from the stand a few minutes later and thinks about it, do they realize they just got ripped off.

How would we simulate that in Hero? The assistants give the dealer a +2 bonus? Letting the player "win" a few times gives them a penalty when it comes time to decide whether to play for bigger stakes?

There are some ideas on the duration of an roll in the APG.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Well, I included the link for the wiki list of confidence tricks, because in the real world, a lot of these tricks work, and work quite well. People of all backgrounds, educational and intelligence levels have fallen for one or more of them readily. I suspect a majority of the population has gotten "conned" out of money at least once in their lives.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Here is an interesting twist. For a $100 stake you win $100 if you pick the queen from 3 cards. You have no idea which is which. Here is the interesting bit. Once you pick a card, the operator turns over one of the other cards, revealing a 'non-queen'. You then give the 'player' the option to change their choice. Once they have decided, you reveal the queen and , if your final qpick is a queen, you win $100 and your orignial stake.

 

What does the player do?

 

(OK, that is a complete aside, but interesting enough you should answer anyway. Please do not explain HOW it works, just tell me what you would do)

 

Point is, I like to teach the actual players something.

 

Well, I'd obviously switch cards.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Well' date=' I'd obviously switch cards.[/quote']

 

...and double your chance of being a winner, but it is astonishing how many people - including many who should know better - will argue that it makes no difference: you are chosing from 2 options and so it is 50/50.

[Christopher]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Well' date=' I included the link for the wiki list of confidence tricks, because in the real world, a lot of these tricks work, and work quite well. People of all backgrounds, educational and intelligence levels have fallen for one or more of them readily. I suspect a majority of the population has gotten "conned" out of money at least once in their lives.[/quote']

They often work because we like to think that we are to smart to be conned.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Nope' date=' it depends on the Skill. The 2 Million $ is really old. Everbody who knows of Spam wil likely recieve a Bonus. It's basically a 8- Atempt at Persausion: Give me your Bank Number. You only fall for it when you do not know of it or want the money so bad (penalties to your roll).[/quote']

 

I might argue it is bribery , but persuasion works too.

 

I think we are going to fundamentally disagree here, given a comment of your below...

 

 

That the thing: You always resist an atempt. You have a certain standpoint on anything. When a foreign person ask you for your banknumber on the street, you won't answer. The same thing with a well formulated e-mail and without knowledge of those scams: Totally other story. He sucessfully convinced you/you failed your ego roll. If it is because of his skill/good story or because of your phsychological vulnerability to the specif scam used is just detail.

The only time you can't resist is when your EGO is 0 (se 6E1 for this), you just execute what is said to you.

 

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

(That was the bit where we fundamentally disagree)

 

You never have to resist an interaction attempt. You can use 'resistsnce rolls' with NPCs to randomise their response a bit, but an NPC and most escpecially a PC should never be required to make a roll to resist an attempt at social influence.

 

A hetrosexual male walks into a bar and sits having a drink. He is not currently in a relationship and has no believs that would prevent him from having casual sex. He is approached by a woman who is just his sort and they get on really well and she suggests they go back to her place and have sex. He has to roll to resist? COME ON!

 

By that logic the guys with the high EGOs would never get any. There's a whole bunch of people out there with massives egos and boules bleues? Really?

 

 

I know the rules of Chess. The entire. I have a PS: Chess of at least 8-. Can't play this game for my life.

 

Not the point. You know knights move one and two or two and one and can jump over other pieces, so you have an advantage over people who don't know that, to take a very simple example. You should be doing better than someone who does not know how to play at all.

 

The current SVS system says if you have skill in Chess and are going first, and the other party does not have skill, roll and if youmake the roll you win, if you do not, you lose. That makes playing with Familiarity (Chess) a disadvantage as the chance of getting 8 or less on 3d6 is under 50%. Obviously that is not a good way to model someone with a bit of skill in something.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Familarity give you a 25,93% chance of Success. 25.93 > 20%. Familarity cost one CP. For a second point you either get Proficiency Gambling (10- for ever game; 50% chance) or Skill Base PS: Poker (11- or better; 62.50, more likely 13- = 83.8 %)

 

The question if you want to be the guy who rolls first is irrelevant. You are at your point in the row, like you are at your SPD and Dex in Combat. It's fair because everyone else will be in that same postion within the next four rounds..

 

Yes 20% is your chance if there are 4 other unskilled players. What if there are only 2? Why should you have a worse chance against 2 unskilled opponents? The RAW simlpy does not work the way it should.

 

As to the rounds thing, I'm going to play 3 then sit the next one out. I'm not an idiot.

 

All of this could be easily avoided if the rule was that everyone with skill rolls their skill. The highest success wins. If no one with skill wins then randomly decide the winner. Then it would not matter who went first and you'd get a bonus for even a bit of skill over someone comletely unskilled: you'd certainly never be in a worse position than if you knew nothing at all.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

...and double your chance of being a winner' date=' but it is astonishing how many people - including many who should know better - will argue that it makes no difference: you are chosing from 2 options and so it is 50/50. [/quote']

 

Well, more like increase it 17%. I only knew that so certainly because my last and most interesting math class was one I took in college that was all about puzzles, riddles, and mathematical games. Like how to prove that there are more numbers between 0 and 1 than there are on the rest of the number line, or how to move an infinite number of people into a hotel with infinite rooms that are already full.

 

Wish I could remember more of it.

[casualplayer]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Maybe a successful opposition skill roll should provide nothing more than insight into the aggressor's intentions? In mutually aggressive situations, multiple successful rollers can meant that I know that you know that I know and you know that too.

 

In a vacuum with tabula rasa participants, it's raw skill versus raw skill. Most situations don't pan out that way. I'm on a winning streak (+1,) but Jabba wants his money (-2,) also I'm cocky (-1,) but lucky at cards, unlucky at love (+2.) The house is keeping me supplied with free drinks (+1) delivered by a girl who is just my type (+1) who arrives just as I'm about to decide to raise or call (+1.) If I don't make an EGO Roll to pace myself or oppose the waitress' Seduction/Charm roll, the House is pretty likely to clean me out as the odds are likely in their favor as they are operating at a +3 to Skill while my modifiers push. Unless I'm such a good gambler that I can be 3 in the hole and still have the advantage.

 

I have a slightly different perspective of Skills than most HERO gamers, I believe. Most think 14> is highly competent and it is if you aren't in a stressful situation and can use the time chart leisurely. If you are relying on a 14> Acrobatics roll to make the jump off a rain-slick building cornice (-2) while under fire from Two-Face's goons (-2) then I hope you know a good recipe for street pizza. Most of my PCs who want to be considered skilled have skills in the high teens-low twentys, because they know they are going to need them most in the worst possible situations. They bolster their skills with supplementary skills to retain and maximize their potential. I realize that this is not how most characters are created in published stuff but whatever. If I see one more mage with 14> magic skill roll trying to scorch off a 60 AP spell.....

 

"Roll 8> for success, please."

"Wait, what?!"

 

Many a gamer uses skills as flavor text, background liner notes, grudgingly spending the campaign mandated minimum. That's not the perspective I'm coming from.

[Christopher]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

A hetrosexual male walks into a bar and sits having a drink. He is not currently in a relationship and has no believs that would prevent him from having casual sex. He is approached by a woman who is just his sort and they get on really well and she suggests they go back to her place and have sex. He has to roll to resist? COME ON!

What sort of conflict took place, that required her to even Roll Charm?

 

By that logic the guys with the high EGOs would never get any. There's a whole bunch of people out there with massives egos and boules bleues? Really?

Nope, they just can't be convinced to it. They aren't slaves to a set of sexy clothing, like you average is vs. Talisman or Saphire.

 

 

 

The current SVS system says if you have skill in Chess and are going first' date=' and the other party does not have skill, roll and if youmake the roll you win, if you do not, you lose. That makes playing with Familiarity (Chess) a disadvantage as the chance of getting 8 or less on 3d6 is under 50%. Obviously that is not a good way to model someone with a bit of skill in something.[/quote']

Then don't use your skill

Many RPG's have a system that you can decide to roll against a interaction atempt and if you are unskilled you get out worse than the result he had in the first place. And such a mechanic is also sometimes used in combat with dodging.

When you are lousy at a skill, you should not use it.

 

Yes 20% is your chance if there are 4 other unskilled players. What if there are only 2? Why should you have a worse chance against 2 unskilled opponents? The RAW simlpy does not work the way it should.

 

As to the rounds thing, I'm going to play 3 then sit the next one out. I'm not an idiot.

"You want to do what? Listen, either you stay at the table and play every round or you go. We don't like gutless guys who can't deal with playing at [position with highest disadvantage]". And let's not talk about what hapens at a tournament...

[Christopher]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Forget the above. Have to explain it in more detail. If a social interaction roll and Resistance Roll has to take palce depends on:

If any of the targets/the target has some complication that makes him/her distrustfull.

Or if the target is dishonest.

 

Let's take the example with the women and the man:

If both really want it and nobody has any thoughts beyond fun tonight, then no roll and have fun.

If one side only uses it as "means to an end", then it is time for an interaction roll. If the attacker fails or the defender beats the roll he is not lulled in by the eloquence and notices the atempt and that the "attacker" is dishonest. What the target does with it is anothr matter (when the man is the attacker/dishonest one, the women would most likely suffer a "goes acording to existing moods" penalties).

If one has a complication that would negatively affect the Interaction roll*, you have to roll that too. Let's say the man has a complciation that says "Thinks he is not worthy of womens atention" or "Thinks women only care for him, when they want something from him". Even if he went there on his own, in the back of his head he still has this thought. You have to roll for Interaciton and aply the penalty. If she does not makes it or his ego roll succeds he thinks (unrightfully) she is only playing with him/does means it that way. When he confronts her she might give him a chance to overcome his complicaiton, or just go on to the next. Or he can just go with it.

 

Let's take the example with the priest and the group:

When he is absolutely honest and the heroes are in "plot hook search mode", then the thing is obvious for both sides.

When he holds back anything or they are not really inclined to search remote, abandoned places full of gold (say they aren't wilderness types) it becomes an Interaction atempt.

If one has a complication that would negatively affect the Interaction roll* ("Distrustfull of the church") or they just had some bad experience (goes against esiting mood), the priest has to convince them that he is not interested in screwing them over.

 

*More precisely: Take any modifiers (complications, curent mood, etc.) that would affect a roll and take the sum of them. Is the result worser than a +1 to the Inteaction roll or -1 to his Ego Roll there has to be a roll.

It's similar to perception Rolls. Seeing a gigantic being (+8 Perception) on 64 meters (-6) or less: No Problem (overall a +2). Seing that same being on 65-125 meters or more (-8) requires a roll. Of course there are things like contrast to keep in mind, but that is the basic logic: If the modifeiers would be +/-0 or worse, there has to be a roll.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Forget the above. Have to explain it in more detail. If a social interaction roll and Resistance Roll has to take palce depends on:

If any of the targets/the target has some complication that makes him/her distrustfull.

Or if the target is dishonest.

 

Let's take the example with the women and the man:

If both really want it and nobody has any thoughts beyond fun tonight, then no roll and have fun.

If one side only uses it as "means to an end", then it is time for an interaction roll. If the attacker fails or the defender beats the roll he is not lulled in by the eloquence and notices the atempt and that the "attacker" is dishonest. What the target does with it is anothr matter (when the man is the attacker/dishonest one, the women would most likely suffer a "goes acording to existing moods" penalties).

If one has a complication that would negatively affect the Interaction roll*, you have to roll that too. Let's say the man has a complciation that says "Thinks he is not worthy of womens atention" or "Thinks women only care for him, when they want something from him". Even if he went there on his own, in the back of his head he still has this thought. You have to roll for Interaciton and aply the penalty. If she does not makes it or his ego roll succeds he thinks (unrightfully) she is only playing with him/does means it that way. When he confronts her she might give him a chance to overcome his complicaiton, or just go on to the next. Or he can just go with it./quote]

 

Agreed, absolutely. We may have been arguing the same viewpoint all along. See how complicated social interaction can get?

 

Let's take the example with the priest and the group:

When he is absolutely honest and the heroes are in "plot hook search mode", then the thing is obvious for both sides.

When he holds back anything or they are not really inclined to search remote, abandoned places full of gold (say they aren't wilderness types) it becomes an Interaction atempt.

If one has a complication that would negatively affect the Interaction roll* ("Distrustfull of the church") or they just had some bad experience (goes against esiting mood), the priest has to convince them that he is not interested in screwing them over.

 

*More precisely: Take any modifiers (complications, curent mood, etc.) that would affect a roll and take the sum of them. Is the result worser than a +1 to the Inteaction roll or -1 to his Ego Roll there has to be a roll.

It's similar to perception Rolls. Seeing a gigantic being (+8 Perception) on 64 meters (-6) or less: No Problem (overall a +2). Seing that same being on 65-125 meters or more (-8) requires a roll. Of course there are things like contrast to keep in mind, but that is the basic logic: If the modifeiers would be +/-0 or worse, there has to be a roll.

 

Again, agreed. I think we see this the same way, although my concern is perhaps more about whether the Hero System Skill Versus Skill system works. I think it does, int hat you can get a result, but not well, in that it does not yield a 50/50 chance where everything is equal and both parties are equally skilled. A game of chess is perhaps the best example because skill should really be everything: over a reasonable number of games, the number of wins for each party should be roughly the same.

 

The current Hero System SVS system does not accomplish that.

 

Two people play chess. The first rolls his 11- skill and has a 37.5% chance of losing the game. The opponent has no chance of losing at this time and the person making the roll can not automatically win. Assuming that they roll 11, an average roll, the opponent has a 62.5% chance of winning with their next roll. If I've done the calculation right that gives the first player a 23.4% chance of winning.

 

If you roll 10 (also an average result) the opponent has to roll 10 or less to win, so the chance of you winning is 31.25%.

 

Now say both players are of the same skill but both are MORE skilled, and have 14- skill.

 

Average roll 11: 9.25% chance of initial failure and 62.5% chance of failure on opponent's roll: total chance of winning: about 34%

Average roll 10: total chance of winning about 45%.

 

So as BOTH players get more skilled (but the relative skill level does not change) the prejudice for going first lessens but never quite goes away.

 

That is daft: if two people are equally skilled, and are playing a fair game, they should each have an equal chance of winning AND absolute skill levels should make no real difference if relative skill level does not change.

 

That is why I say opposed skill rolls, at least the way Hero does it, do not work.

[Lucius]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

A hetrosexual male walks into a bar and sits having a drink. He is not currently in a relationship and has no believs that would prevent him from having casual sex. He is approached by a woman who is just his sort and they get on really well and she suggests they go back to her place and have sex. He has to roll to resist? COME ON!

 

Then he makes an INT roll to remember a number of inconvenient possibilities.

 

"Wait a minute. There's no cure for AIDS. Or Herpes. And there's a number of other things that are curable but not pleasant. Sure I'll be using precautions but.....oh no. What if she gets pregnant? I want a kid about like I want a terminal disease! etc."

 

By that logic the guys with the high EGOs would never get any. There's a whole bunch of people out there with massives egos and boules bleues? Really?

 

Yeah, really, I don't think it's that unreasonable to think that men with good impulse control and high self discinpline would be less likely to indulge in acts of spontaneous sensual gratification that risk serious negative consequences.

 

 

Or maybe not. I have to admit that if you counter that most men, after all, think of sex as something worth dying for, I have no real rebuttal to that; my experience and observations suggest that it's true.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is thinking of Pendragon

[Ragitsu]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Language is a funny thing. I see "male" and then "woman", and in some cases I see "man" and "female", but not "male" and female" or "man" and "woman" as often.

 

Is there something demeaning about the terms "male" and "female"? Some have suggested that they are dehumanizing (in a negative way).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Then he makes an INT roll to remember a number of inconvenient possibilities.

 

"Wait a minute. There's no cure for AIDS. Or Herpes. And there's a number of other things that are curable but not pleasant. Sure I'll be using precautions but.....oh no. What if she gets pregnant? I want a kid about like I want a terminal disease! etc."

 

...then makes another INT roll to remember prophylactics...

 

 

 

Yeah, really, I don't think it's that unreasonable to think that men with good impulse control and high self discinpline would be less likely to indulge in acts of spontaneous sensual gratification that risk serious negative consequences.

 

 

Or maybe not. I have to admit that if you counter that most men, after all, think of sex as something worth dying for, I have no real rebuttal to that; my experience and observations suggest that it's true.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is thinking of Pendragon

 

The argument could run that someone with low EGO is more likely to not believe themselves worthy of the attention and so somehow sabotage the whole thing. You can argue any POV you like, but I think EGO is only relevant to resist in such a situation where you actually want to resist. That in itself means you have to realise that there is something you want to resist.

 

You could want sex because of high self-esteem or low self esteem: actually not 'because of' but 'in spite of'. Willpower is irrelevant unless you are trying to deny yourself something that you want.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Language is a funny thing. I see "male" and then "woman", and in some cases I see "man" and "female", but not "male" and female" or "man" and "woman" as often.

 

Is there something demeaning about the terms "male" and "female"? Some have suggested that they are dehumanizing (in a negative way).

 

No, we are just grammonsters.

[Lucius]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

...then makes another INT roll to remember prophylactics...

 

That's what I meant by "precautions." Sorry I didn't express myself more precisely.

 

As for the rest, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

talk to the palindromedary, I've got a commemorative to compose

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

That's what I meant by "precautions." Sorry I didn't express myself more precisely.

 

As for the rest, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

talk to the palindromedary, I've got a commemorative to compose

 

I disagree. I two people go to a trashy bar both looking for a hookup, what difference does it make who makes the first move? EGO doesn't enter into that situation, yet trying to be smooth (Charm roll) or just strike up a conversation to see if they are interested (Conversation), by your standards automatically becomes a test with a win/lose solution. That just seems odd, which is Sean's point, I think.

[casualplayer]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

If she makes the Charm roll by enough and you fail to oppose, she gets what she wants and if you are lucky it is something that you were willing to provide. If she makes her Charm roll and you succeed in opposing, you see what she's after and you still might be willing to work out a compromising position. If she botches her Charm roll and you succeed in opposing you still have the option of allowing things to proceed but with you in control. Or you can move along.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

I disagree. I two people go to a trashy bar both looking for a hookup' date=' what difference does it make who makes the first move? EGO doesn't enter into that situation, yet trying to be smooth (Charm roll) or just strike up a conversation to see if they are interested (Conversation), by your standards automatically becomes a test with a win/lose solution. That just seems odd, which is Sean's point, I think.[/quote']

 

Yes it is, but it sounds a lot better coming from you

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

That's what I meant by "precautions." Sorry I didn't express myself more precisely.

 

As for the rest, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

talk to the palindromedary, I've got a commemorative to compose

 

What I'm actually arguing (or was, when we started) was that opposed rolls, as the system presents them, are not a good way of modelling most 'competitions' between two or more participants in a situation. We seem to have moved on to something else entirely.

 

Still I'll argue about anything so...

 

If she makes the Charm roll by enough and you fail to oppose' date=' she gets what she wants and if you are lucky it is something that you were willing to provide. If she makes her Charm roll and you succeed in opposing, you see what she's after and you still might be willing to work out a compromising position. If she botches her Charm roll and you succeed in opposing you still have the option of allowing things to proceed but with you in control. Or you can move along. [/quote']

 

The difficulty is THEN that the rules say you make an EGO roll in a Skill Versus Skill contest. That would then mean that high EGO characters tend to find a lot of otherwise attractive people boring or vulgar. A lot of egotistical characters might, but that is a very different thing, and makes no sense to me.

 

In fact, unless there is some ulterior motive, why make any sort of opposed roll? If someone comes up and says I like you, if you like me, let us make the beast with two backs, well, that is entirely down to personality, isn't it? Well, personality and alcohol consumption. You're either going to find her attractive (or him attractive), or you are not, and you are going to be up for that sort of thing or you are not. The thing is that Hero does not model personality exceptwith the broadest of strokes. We have characteristics and complications, but not much nuance when it comes down to that sort of thing. The rules for social interaction could do with a nice long look at. I underrstand that may have been done in AGPII. I will buy it when it is in print, and have a look.

 

As we are derailed anyway and heading across country, can I also point out the madness in the Charm skill that suggests that a PRE roll might be complementary to a Charm roll?

 

Can anyone else see a problem there?

[casualplayer]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

The difficulty is THEN that the rules say you make an EGO roll in a Skill Versus Skill contest. That would then mean that high EGO characters tend to find a lot of otherwise attractive people boring or vulgar. A lot of egotistical characters might' date=' but that is a very different thing, and makes no sense to me.[/quote']

 

 

That's just it. Success in resisting doesn't mandate refusal or rejection or epic fail; it just means that the resistor is wise to the aggressor's intentions. The aggressor attempted a social pseudo-Mind Control, wanting the target to think it was their idea, and didn't quite pull it off. Still might have been a tempting offer but the resistor is not compelled to sacrifice more than they are willing. I'm not going to give you the keys to the city or even the keys to my car but I might still give you the keys to my hotel room. The resistor could move to endgame or could keep the game alive, potentially letting the aggressor another chance.

[Christopher]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

The argument could run that someone with low EGO is more likely to not believe themselves worthy of the attention and so somehow sabotage the whole thing. You can argue any POV you like, but I think EGO is only relevant to resist in such a situation where you actually want to resist. That in itself means you have to realise that there is something you want to resist.

 

You could want sex because of high self-esteem or low self esteem: actually not 'because of' but 'in spite of'. Willpower is irrelevant unless you are trying to deny yourself something that you want.

No. Low ego means he is easy to manipulate - both by others and his own complications. He will more likely follow any sugestions and never even realise he is being played.

 

I disagree. I two people go to a trashy bar both looking for a hookup' date=' what difference does it make who makes the first move? EGO doesn't enter into that situation, yet trying to be smooth (Charm roll) or just strike up a conversation to see if they are interested (Conversation), by your standards automatically becomes a test with a win/lose solution. That just seems odd, which is Sean's point, I think.[/quote']

We already established: No Conflict of interests, no hidden agenda and no complication that dictates others = No Conflict = No Roll

 

What I'm actually arguing (or was' date=' when we started) was that opposed rolls, as the system presents them, are not a good way of modelling most 'competitions' between two or more participants in a situation. We seem to have moved on to something else entirely.[/quote']

This is the question if there even IS a contest or not. That is apparently not as clear in social interactions as it is with Concealment.

 

You calculation of the chances above was wrong, btw. When both have 11-, the chance for both rolling exaclty 11 is 12.5% * 12.5% = 1,5625 %

10/10 = 1,5625%

9/9 = 1,3456 %

8/8 = 0,9409 %

7/7 = 0,4489 %

6/6 = 0,2116 %

5/5 = 0,0784 %

4/4 = 0,0196 %

3/3 = 0,002116 %

The summed chance for the attacker to loose because of the rule regarding ties: 4,609616 %

The chance to roll any specific number between 6 and 15 is higher

The Chance to roll any number from the ranges 3-5 and 16-18 is higher.

It lower than the difference in success chance between 5/6 and 14/15 respectively.

 

The difficulty is THEN that the rules say you make an EGO roll in a Skill Versus Skill contest. That would then mean that high EGO characters tend to find a lot of otherwise attractive people boring or vulgar. A lot of egotistical characters might' date=' but that is a very different thing, and makes no sense to me.[/quote']

So what woudl a character attacked by a Mental Power with "IPE: To the target" defened with?

What should BE the value to defend with when you are not aware?

 

I still argue that EGO includes your "Social Perception", in the form of your ability to be not fooled directly.

 

As we are derailed anyway and heading across country, can I also point out the madness in the Charm skill that suggests that a PRE roll might be complementary to a Charm roll?

 

Can anyone else see a problem there?

A good question, let's ask the right person and we might recieve answer:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/87016-PRE-Complimentary-to-Charm

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Christopher, please re-read how opposed (Skill Versus Skill) rolls work.

 

The first rolls successfully, then the second had to match their roll to win.

 

The first fails a roll and they lose the contest.

 

The second person in the contest wins more than they lose, but there is no good reason that should be so.

 

It is perfectly possible I have the maths wrong (although I'm not sure what you mean by: When both have 11-, the chance for both rolling exaclty 11 is 12.5% * 12.5% = 1,5625 %), but the underling principle remains - go first = bad. That makes no sense.

[Christopher]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

The first fails a roll and they lose the contest.

 

The second person in the contest wins more than they lose, but there is no good reason that should be so.

That is why you switch who rolls first between every round in two player games. If you have two players, equal skill and both have to be Nr. 1 once they have both exactly the same chance to have 0 Wins, 1 Win or 2 Wins.

If a clear winner has to be decided, repeat until one has 2 wins more than his enemy. Voila, both had equal chance to go out as winner. In fact each had a chance to win of exaclty 50%.

 

If you have 5 players play multiples of 5 rounds and move the roll first around - no problem here either.

Just so the players don't skew the odds in their favor through metagaming, let them be Nr. 1 in the first round of the game and/or let the NPC-players have a "[number of players] rounds minimum, before you can walk away with your winnings"-table rule. Voila, everyone has the same chances and nobody was disadvantaged through the entire 5 round cycle.

 

For social interaction it's just the chance to bust it up so totally that the target does not even considers whatever you wanted him to do. You tried to manipulate him and it totally failed. That gives the question if you apply modifiers to Ego Roll or Skill Roll a greater meaning, but overall it will turn out equal too.

 

When it is Concealment vs. Perception: You either made a noise or ran right into his field of vision when you where so certain he was looking the other direction again (that's why people with a 11- concealment should not try to run silently).