Do opposed skill rolls work?

[archermoo]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

The skill v skill system is supposed to resolve conflicts where one skill is being used against another, and I don't think that it does that as well as it could..

 

Forget games. 2 people arguing, trying to convicne the other of their point. Say on a message board

 

Now I can see that if they both roll their 'Persuade' skill and get the same result, then that exchange has not resulted in a victory for either. Continue or stop.

 

That is not what the rules say though, it is a consensus house rule; sensible, but not canon. the rules would have whoever rolled second winning th eexchange.

 

My biggest gripe though is deciding who is the 'active' participant. Even the example in the book of PER v Stealth seems fraught with difficulty, even if the rules position is clear. I can see a good argument for either participant being 'active'.

 

There is a real advantage, as far as I can see, to rolling second, so this is important.

 

In the case of two people trying to convince each other of their side, it is simple. You require two sets of rolls. One for person A trying to convince person B, where B would be defending, and one for person B trying to convince person A, where A would be defending. Which leads to the possibility of each convincing the other that they are right, and the two people trading positions. Which I've actually seen happen IRL.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

In the case of two people trying to convince each other of their side' date=' it is simple. You require two sets of rolls. One for person A trying to convince person B, where B would be defending, and one for person B trying to convince person A, where A would be defending. Which leads to the possibility of each convincing the other that they are right, and the two people trading positions. Which I've actually seen happen IRL. [/quote']

 

I think that is a sensible and practical sugegstion.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Actually' date=' I've pondered putting together a 'Verbal Martial Arts' article for Digital HERO to address this exact problem. I suppose now is a good a time as any to start writing it.[/quote']

 

You might want to read "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense" as a reference

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

You might want to read "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense" as a reference

 

Linky? Amazon? Online? Point, wise one, and I shall go.

[jtelson]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Actually' date=' I've pondered putting together a 'Verbal Martial Arts' article for Digital HERO to address this exact problem. I suppose now is a good a time as any to start writing it.[/quote']

 

This other uses for Fudge-Fu article may be of some interest towards that.

 

http://www.fudgefactor.org/2006/01/other-uses-for-fudge-fu.html

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Sean has a point about going second, and archermoo has a good solution for addressing such contests. But I think casualplayer makes an excellent point about the use of complimentary skills, which would "break the tie" in many cases and avoid the whole situation. Encouraging the use of complimentary skills like that generally results in players taking more skills for their characters because they are useful, not just colorful. But the colorful makes for better role playing in my experience, so any way to promote it I have to support.

[Utech]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

How about just doing the opposed skill roll twice? The first time you have A active and B resisting. The second time B is active and A is resisting.

 

Compare the two results and create your story around it.

 

Just a few possible results:

A gets more success than B and wins the exchange.

B gets more success than A and wins the exchange.

A fails by less than B and wins the exchange.

B fails by less than A and wins the exchange.

A and B success or fail equally and another round of rolls is called for.

 

Naturally, the story one creates might change from situation to situation. I trust the GM and players to work together to ensure it is enjoyable. If you prefer hard and fast rules, they wouldn't be difficult to write up.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Linky? Amazon? Online? Point' date=' wise one, and I shall go.[/quote']

 

Well, I was kind of joking, but:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Gentle-Art-Verbal-Self-Defense/dp/0880292571/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197694445&sr=1-3

[Ragitsu]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Secondly' date=' no complimentary skills. WTF? Which player has Conversation to get the other player to spill some secrets? Which one has Acting to maintain his poker face throughout? Eidetic Memory Only for which cards have been seen? IMNSHO Presence Attacks work wonderfully at the card table. I live for the game against the player who read a lot of books about the subject (has the Gambling skill) but has no other cards up his sleeve.[/quote']

 

Issues of game balance COMPLETELY aside, is it realistic to let every possible advantage on the gambler's side stack with the primary Gambling roll? They could have excellent vision, be a great reader of people, and a head for math.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Just wanted to say this:

 

The person "going second" does not have an advantage. The defender has the advantage. Order of rolls just so happens to be initiator / offender rolls first, responder / defender rolls second. If there is no clear attacker/defender, I would ignore the "ties go to defender" and re-roll if there is no clear "winner."

[megaplayboy]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

I did do an opposed skill comparison at one point, but it's a fairly complicated thing to work out long hand. Suffice to say that a sufficiently high difference in skill levels will result in a fairly lopsided contest(on either side, which is as one would expect). The notable other thing, IIRC, is that even a modest increase in skill over the baseline on the part of the responder/defender can significantly crimp the success of the initiator/offender(e.g., a 12- roll for the defender has a disproportionate impact on a 12-14- roll for the initiator, compared to an 11-)

[Ice9]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Wait, that's how you do opposed rolls? We've been doing them wrong for years - both people make a skill roll, whoever has a greater margin of success is the winner. A tie is a tie (or goes to a second roll).

Although reading this, I'm going to stick with my "wrong" method - I'm puzzled why the actual rules work the way they do.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Wait' date=' [i']that's[/i] how you do opposed rolls? We've been doing them wrong for years - both people make a skill roll, whoever has a greater margin of success is the winner. A tie is a tie (or goes to a second roll).

Although reading this, I'm going to stick with my "wrong" method - I'm puzzled why the actual rules work the way they do.

 

Actually, functionally, I think that is the way they're supposed to be done. If Person A makes their roll by 2, then Person B has to make their roll by 2 or better.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Indeed, skill vs skill rolls are easy to resolve and there should be no ambiguity involved at all. Each person makes their skill roll, the one who succeeds by more wins. If they tie, its a draw and if appropriate the contest continues. There are times when i as a gm designate a winning threshold such as 10 points. The players continue rolling their skills until such a time that one of them accumulates 10 points first.

[casualplayer]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Issues of game balance COMPLETELY aside' date=' is it [b']realistic[/b] to let every possible advantage on the gambler's side stack with the primary Gambling roll? They could have excellent vision, be a great reader of people, and a head for math.

 

Why not? Most gambling houses are designed with distractions to keep you from being able to focus and make good decisions. The "defender" gets complimentary skill bonuses too.

[Christopher]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Actually' date=' I've pondered putting together a 'Verbal Martial Arts' article for Digital HERO to address this exact problem. I suppose now is a good a time as any to start writing it.[/quote']

Don't know if there is a problem with the rules. I rather think there is a problem with the application.

 

I think perhaps the example is causing some hangups. Replace Gambling with PS:Chess or any other scenario that's opposed but not necessarily resisted and has little or no random element.

 

I use opposed skill rolls when one character is acting in opposition to anotherm where there is a defender and an attacker. When characters are merely in competition with eachother' date=' I use a skill roll off. Whoever makes the roll by the most does better. If they tie, they tie. If you need to produce a single winner, just have the characters who tied roll again.[/quote']

Yes, that is right. In order for oposed Skill rolls to work there HAS to be an order of attacker and Defender. And the solution for Poker is pretty simple:

The attacker (the guy who has to roll first) changes every round!

He does so in real Poker: The card giver changes. Where you sit in relation to the card giver changes your ability to determine the game, but also your ability to react to the actions of the others. So when 5 people sit at the poker table, the one who has to roll first changes every time the card giver changes and they just roll in the order it goes from the card giver. The roll of one, is the target for the next to be beaten. So if all Skills are equall (11-), and all 5 roll 11, the win goes to the guy who rolled last. But the next round, he is the one who goes first.

So it's equally a game of chance, of tactics and opportunity (sitting at the right postion realtive to the giver/being the last to roll).

 

The same is true for chess:

"White begins, black wins" is not a toally idle saying. The one who has the initative can determine the start of the game. The one who lacks initiative can react to his enemies actions.

 

When you want to simulate an entire contest, there are two possible solutions (wich you can combine):

- determine who has the "bad luck" of having to roll first randomly. When there is more than one round, move the "roll-starting point" among the players.

- give the one who beginns the chance for an additional roll (opposed by the others), with the only effect of giving him a +1 to the real roll (wich determines who wins). So a player can decide to go first in hopes of getting the +1, but at the risk of being at a disadvantage if he fails his roll (he has to go first with his roll, so the others have easier time beating him).

 

Opposed Skill rolls are not different from the question "Who can act first?" in normal combat. You get the advantage of determining the battlefield, with the disadvantage of being open to counterattack in that phase (can't abort) and the enemy being able to figure out your plan.

[Hierax]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Do an actual opposed roll (dice roll vs. dice roll) instead:

 

• if the skills are equal roll 3d6 vs. 3d6 (high wins)
  

 

• if one skill is higher than the other give it a bonus equal to the difference; i.e., 13- vs. 11- = 2 difference = 3d6+2 vs. 3d6.
  

Simple.

[Christopher]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Do an actual opposed roll (dice roll vs. dice roll) instead:

 

 

• if the skills are equal roll 3d6 vs. 3d6 (high wins)
  

 

 

 

• if one skill is higher than the other give it a bonus equal to the difference; i.e., 13- vs. 11- = 2 difference = 3d6+2 vs. 3d6.
  

 

Simple.

Yes. And totally ignores the problem of what happens when they tie....

[megaplayboy]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Yes. And totally ignores the problem of what happens when they tie....

 

"In a tie, everybody wins! Yay!"

[brionl]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Don't know if there is a problem with the rules. I rather think there is a problem with the application.

 

 

 

 

Yes, that is right. In order for oposed Skill rolls to work there HAS to be an order of attacker and Defender. And the solution for Poker is pretty simple:

The attacker (the guy who has to roll first) changes every round!

He does so in real Poker: The card giver changes.

 

In English usage, it's dealer, not card giver.

But otherwise, you're correct.

[casualplayer]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Yes. And totally ignores the problem of what happens when they tie....

 

In most cases people neglect to define what happens with a tie but ties have different effects depending on the conflict. In a tie versus Systems Op vs. Security Systems you don't advance any further but you don't trigger any alarms either. Conversation vs. Conversation, no significant information is exchanged but the clock keeps ticking and the bomb is about to explode! Gambling vs. Gambling, some chips move back and forth but no significant reallocation or advantage gained.

 

In some cases ties will go to the house, in some cases ties will go to the runner and in some cases ties will just eat up precious time.

[Christopher]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

In English usage, it's dealer, not card giver.

But otherwise, you're correct.

Thanks, so my understanding was not totally flawed.

To give an example:

5 Players. In their order the make rolls and the rsults are:

1: Made by 0

2: Made by 0

3: failed by 2 (-2)

4: Made by 0

5: Made by 0

 

So the resolving of "who wins" (when player 1 is the first to roll):

2 beats 1; 3 is out; 4 beats 2; 5 beats 4; 5 wins, by favor of being at the right postion.

When the game beginns at 4:

5 beats 4; 1 beats 5; 2 beats 1; 3 is out; 2 Wins by favor of position

 

Since the dealer/guy who rolls first will change every round nobody has a big favor. And even just archieving a tie is only likely between players with a equal skill and equal complimentary rolls in the firt place.

[brionl]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

It also depends on the game. In Blackjack, the dealer has the advantage, because ties go to the dealer.

[Lucius]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

Do opposed skill rolls work?

Yes.

 

Do they work when Sean Waters misapplies them?

Not as well as they do in situations they're actually appropriate for.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Roll vs Palindromedary

[Wizard]

Re: Do opposed skill rolls work?

 

The way I see it is that for there to be a opposed skill roll there has to be a clear initiator of the action, someone who declares I am trying to do something. I refer to the initiator as the attacker in the examples below. There also has to be someone that declares they are going to stop the attacker from doing something, the defender.

 

A burglar is trying to sneak past a guard. This makes the burglar the attacker and the guard the defender. If the burglar fails his skill roll he automatically gets noticed by the guard.

 

A guard is trying to find a burglar as he has reason to believe someone is in the building. This makes the guard the attacker and the burglar the defender. If the guard fails his skill roll, he automatically fails to locate the burglar.

 

 

The guard and burglar now sit down to a game of chess (yeah, the burglar got caught). Neither the guard (chess skill 11-) or burglar (chess skill 9-) are the initiators so instead of an opposed skill roll they both roll skill rolls. The guard rolls a 14 and the burglar rolls a 10. Both failed their skills and both played terrible games, but as the burglar failed by the least amount, he won the chess game.

 

In the case of a draw in a chess game, I suppose you declare a stalemate. For actions that need someone to win, then either the win goes to the character with the highest controlling attribute or just re-roll.

 

Another way to handle the chess game would be by using the Task Difficulty rules on page 23 of the APG. The guard and burglar would just keep rolling until their Task Difficulty reaches zero.

 

 

In other words an opposed skill roll does not apply where two or more characters are trying to achieve the same result. If five characters sit down to play poker they are all trying to win for themselves. Their main goal is not to stop someone else from winning, even though by definition that is what would happen, but it is for them to win. Hopefully that makes sense.