What are "vitals"

[ghost-angel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

There was a suggested rule change in 4e (I think 4e UMA) that punches automatically be high shots (location 3 - 13) and kicks automatically be low shots (locations 9 - 19' date=' with 19 being feet) to deal with this. It's a pretty simple fix, although I've never mathed out the impact on average stun multiples, etc. to assess whether it's unbalancing in any way.[/quote']

 

5E UMA has the same suggestions as Optional Rules for High and Low shots, each Art in the book has suggestions for which maneuvers are High and which are Low.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Vitals: important stuff. Nintendo DS, music collection, etc.

 

Player: "I catch him with a left hook"

GM: "He eels over. It was a fluke but there he was, Lying on the deck, flat as a mackerel. Kelpless"

Forget the Cods, Gil, this guy's gonna need a Sturgeon...

[casualplayer]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

There was a suggested rule change in 4e (I think 4e UMA) that punches automatically be high shots (location 3 - 13) and kicks automatically be low shots (locations 9 - 19' date=' with 19 being feet) to deal with this. It's a pretty simple fix, although I've never mathed out the impact on average stun multiples, etc. to assess whether it's unbalancing in any way.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I know. It's one of those house rules that I forget is house and just figure as a given, especially since I taught Champions/HERO System to the GM in the game I mentioned. Always bugged me to have dice say a punch landed anywhere below upper thigh, at least when we're talking about human on human melee. 2d6+1 is almost always a 7 or 8, which isn't exactly advantageous.

 

I wonder what the advantage Variable Hit Location would be worth? Would it be worth + 1/4 to be able to modify the hit location roll +/-1?

[Outsider]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

There was a suggested rule change in 4e (I think 4e UMA) that punches automatically be high shots (location 3 - 13) and kicks automatically be low shots (locations 9 - 19' date=' with 19 being feet) to deal with this. It's a pretty simple fix, although I've never mathed out the impact on average stun multiples, etc. to assess whether it's unbalancing in any way.[/quote']

 

Regular/High/Low Effects on STUN & BODY

 

Regular Shot (3D6) (roll : Odds : B/S Mult : B*Odds : S*Odds)

_3 : _1 : 2.0/5 : _2.0 : __5

_4 : _3 : 2.0/5 : _6.0 : _15

_5 : _6 : 2.0/5 : 12.0 : _30

_6 : 10 : 0.5/1 : _5.0 : _10

_7 : 15 : 0.5/2 : _7.5 : _30

_8 : 21 : 0.5/2 : 10.5 : _42

_9 : 25 : 1.0/3 : 25.0 : _75

10 : 27 : 1.0/3 : 27.0 : _81

11 : 27 : 1.0/3 : 27.0 : _81

12 : 25 : 1.0/4 : 25.0 : 100

13 : 21 : 1.5/4 : 31.5 : _84

14 : 15 : 1.0/2 : 15.0 : _30

15 : 10 : 0.5/2 : _5.0 : _20

16 : _6 : 0.5/2 : _3.0 : _12

17 : _3 : 0.5/1 : _1.5 : __3

18 : _1 : 0.5/1 : _0.5 : __1

 

Total Body in 216 rolls : 203.5 : Avg = 0.933

Total Stun in 216 rolls : 619.0 : Avg = 2.866

 

High Shot (2D6+1)

_3 : 1 : 2.0/5 : 2.0 : _5

_4 : 2 : 2.0/5 : 4.0 : 10

_5 : 3 : 2.0/5 : 6.0 : 15

_6 : 4 : 0.5/1 : 2.0 : _4

_7 : 5 : 0.5/2 : 2.5 : 10

_8 : 6 : 0.5/2 : 3.0 : 12

_9 : 5 : 1.0/3 : 5.0 : 15

10 : 4 : 1.0/3 : 4.0 : 16

11 : 3 : 1.0/3 : 3.0 : _9

12 : 2 : 1.0/4 : 2.0 : _8

13 : 1 : 1.5/4 : 1.5 : _4

 

Total Body in 36 Rolls : _35.0 : Avg = 0.972

Total Stun in 36 Rolls : 108.0 : Avg = 3.000

 

 

Low Shot (2D6+7*) *19 counts as an 18

_9 : 1 : 1.0/3 : 1.0 : _3

10 : 2 : 1.0/3 : 2.0 : _6

11 : 3 : 1.0/3 : 3.0 : _9

12 : 4 : 1.0/4 : 4.0 : 16

13 : 5 : 1.5/4 : 7.5 : 20

14 : 6 : 1.0/2 : 6.0 : 12

15 : 5 : 0.5/2 : 2.5 : 10

16 : 4 : 0.5/2 : 2.0 : _8

17 : 3 : 0.5/1 : 1.5 : _3

18 : 3 : 0.5/1 : 1.5 : _3

 

Total Body in 36 Rolls : _31.0 : Avg = 0.86

Total Stun in 36 Rolls : 90.0 : Avg = 2.50

 

 

So a high shot is the best, then a regular, then a low.

 

 

 

 

 

(snip) 2d6+1 is almost always a 7 or 8, which isn't exactly advantageous. (snip)

 

The odds of getting a less than impressive 1 or 2 Stun Mult location on a High Shot are only slightly higher than with a Regular Shot, and your odds of getting 5*Stun 'fight ender' are much, much higher.

 

 

Regular

10/216 of a 5* : _4.6%

46/216 of a 4* : 21.3%

79/216 of a 3* : 36.6%

67/216 of a 2* : 31.0%

14/216 of a 1* : _6.5%

 

High

_6/36 of a 5* : 16.7%

_3/36 of a 4* : _8.3%

12/36 of a 3* : 33.3%

11/36 of a 2* : 30.5%

_4/36 of a 1* : 11.1%

 

Low

_0/36 of a 5* : _0.0%

_9/36 of a 4* : 25.0%

_6/36 of a 3* : 16.7%

15/36 of a 2* : 41.7%

_6/36 of a 1* : 16.7%

 

 

 

 

 

PS : On topic : I came into HERO system mostly through FH, so I'd vote for 'vitals' being the nexus of nerves, major arteries, etc associated with the 'tighty whitey' area. Seemed pretty obvious from how the FH sectional armor was layed out.

[Kenn]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Always bugged me to have dice say a punch landed anywhere below upper thigh' date=' at least when we're talking about human on human melee. 2d6+1 is almost always a 7 or 8, which isn't exactly advantageous.[/quote']

 

I guess that means the person being punched is trying to shield himself with his arms.

[Kenn]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I believe this goes back to 1st Ed Champions where whoever it was who wrote the original Hit Location Chart was a bit too embarrassed to write "crotch' date='" so he used "vitals" as a euphemism.[/quote']

 

I agree that it was a euphemism. But I wonder if it was embarrassment, or fear of groups that were targeting role-playing games.

[Comic]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

In a rip-roaring, acrobatic slugfest, with leaping over crates, running on tabletops, vaulting, swinging, backflips and such -- the kinds of fights Batman or Spiderman have -- the Regular chart seems fitting.

 

You really could end up punching Batman in the ankle. And then you'd wake up in a prison hospital.

 

It's those flat-footed fistics who fit the High chart.. and unadvantageous as it is.. that's fitting too, in its way.

[casualplayer]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I guess that means the person being punched is trying to shield himself with his arms.

 

Which is highly appropriate. If you can, get out of the way; if you can't, take the shot to the arm. Plus, emulating the cinematic style, people get wounded in the arm all the time.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I agree that it was a euphemism. But I wonder if it was embarrassment' date=' or fear of groups that were targeting role-playing games.[/quote']

Yes. That could have easily been an important factor. I remember those days. I had people personally telling me that by playing Dungeons & Dragons, I was practicing Satanism.

 

And re: High- and Low- shots, yes, two humans standing on the ground punching at each other should probably always be high shots, but if they're flying, they could hit or be hit anywhere, or if they're in water, or both lying on the ground instead of standing. Likewise if they're both doing acrobatic maneuvers, or mixing their punches with kicks. The kicker could easily be punched in the leg or foot during the kick, before, or after, whether he hits or misses.

[Maur]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Getting hit in the 13 is very dangerous if you expand it slightly from just the groin itself to also include the lower abdominal region. You can rupture major veins and arteries that carry blood to/from the legs, hit the kidneys, the lower spine, the intestinal track, etc... which are all dangerous things to have hit. Puncturing the intestines allows the bacteria that reside in there to get into the body and cause problems elsewhere and also aren't easy to repair as a doctor would have to find every little hole that a knife or bullet would put through them.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Absolutely, but getting hit in the heart is equally as dangerous, and either it is part of 13 or it is somewhere else on this chart of locations.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Yes. That could have easily been an important factor. I remember those days. I had people personally telling me that by playing Dungeons & Dragons' date=' I was practicing Satanism.[/quote']

 

You mean, that Mind Bondage spell I cast on my father was just the result of hype and an overactive imagination!? This explains why I never got a pwny.

[Outsider]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Or it is a high damage roll in chest location.

 

Location multiples would then represent increased odds of hitting something really important in the given location.

 

 

Just what does a high damage roll vs a low one represent?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Or it is a high damage roll in chest location.

 

Location multiples would then represent increased odds of hitting something really important in the given location.

 

 

Just what does a high damage roll vs a low one represent?

 

That nothing is guaranteed, that's all. Now we're getting really esoteric, but as I can tell you, as ANB can tell you, as any martial artist on this board can tell you, there are a hundred little things that go into a single strike; damage represents the variables that drive those hundred little things. People won't don't like to roll damage use Standard Effect. I'm a damage roller, though, always have been. Except when playing BattleTech.

[Outsider]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I come from more of a firearms background, where every shot at a given range with a given gun is more or less the same except in regards to precisely where it hits.

 

Of course, this has also led me to consider using a hybrid of standard and rolled damage, at least in regards to firearms. STD damage determines armor penetration (ie if your armor is rated as 7 rPD (stops rifle fire) it STOPS RIFLE FIRE, at least if it activates. If it fails, or you are wearing armor too light to stop what is being fired at you, -then- you have damage rolled, otherwise the shot does standard (and doesnt penetrate your armor, body-wise, at least)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I come from more of a firearms background, where every shot at a given range with a given gun is more or less the same except in regards to precisely where it hits.

 

Of course, this has also led me to consider using a hybrid of standard and rolled damage, at least in regards to firearms. STD damage determines armor penetration (ie if your armor is rated as 7 rPD (stops rifle fire) it STOPS RIFLE FIRE, at least if it activates. If it fails, or you are wearing armor too light to stop what is being fired at you, -then- you have damage rolled, otherwise the shot does standard (and doesnt penetrate your armor, body-wise, at least)

 

New thread senses... tingling!!

[Kenn]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

your armor is rated as 7 rPD

 

Are you gonna drink from that cup?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I come from more of a firearms background, where every shot at a given range with a given gun is more or less the same except in regards to precisely where it hits.

 

Of course, this has also led me to consider using a hybrid of standard and rolled damage, at least in regards to firearms. STD damage determines armor penetration (ie if your armor is rated as 7 rPD (stops rifle fire) it STOPS RIFLE FIRE, at least if it activates. If it fails, or you are wearing armor too light to stop what is being fired at you, -then- you have damage rolled, otherwise the shot does standard (and doesnt penetrate your armor, body-wise, at least)

This perspective is what's led me to using the optional Crit rules.

Because, yeah, a bullet has fairly predicable penetration ASSUMING a solid hit.

 

Add in angles of deflection and things get tetchy. Same thing with wound effects. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. A shot which severs the aorta is gonna be more lethal than one that misses it and hits the clavicle on it's way through, while another in the same 8 ring circle might be a through and through that doesn't do much but cut meat.

 

HTH has even more variables.

Random damage works for me, tho if I was gonna retool the weapons from the ground up I'd probably do missile weapons with some Piercing to reflect this difference.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

You mean' date=' that [i']Mind Bondage[/i] spell I cast on my father was just the result of hype and an overactive imagination!? This explains why I never got a pwny.

No no. You just didn't roll enough effect... probably EGO +20 or +30, depending...

[dsatow]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

These have undoubtedly already been mentioned, but:

 

The 13 location being the groin was originally deduced from fantasy hero armor types covering that location.

 

The Short Vest Armor type that covers 9-13 makes me think of this armor (see http://store.andersonarmor.com/servlet/-strse-64/Bulletproof%2C-Body-Armor%2C-Vests%2C/Detail). Its listed as a full coverage military vest with pockets.

 

Lastly, the groin section is considered a vital area. People who take damage there are rushed into the emergency rooms mainly due to possible rupture and bleeding of the body's digestive and waste systems. Because of the lack of bone to protect these organs, as the heart and lungs have in the rib cage, I think is why the damage was upped.

 

In any case, as a GM you should do whatever makes the most sense in the drama of the game and through realism out the door. While its funny to say a villian hit in the 13 has his private parts blown off grabbing thier crotch in a fetal position and dying, it may be more dramatic to say to he got hit in the heart and blood come up his mouths. Depending on the villain, one may be more apropriate than the other. A serial rapist may be better killed by a crotch shot, but that childhood friend turned murderer might be better served dying with innocence in his eyes and blood bubbling out of his mouth as he tries to say sorry.

 

IMHO, the HERO system really is about playing HEROes as main characters in a story than generic characters in a setting. I believe this whether they are starting heroes or experienced ones.

[Lucius]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

"Vitals" is not a euphemism. Vitals means vitals.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Otherwise, the palindromedary wouldn't even HAVE vitals.

[Mike W]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

How do you define the hit location "vitals" in your game?

 

There seems to be a generally held view that the vitals equal the groin. But I can find no basis for this in the rules. Perhaps someone can point out where in the rules vitals are defined?

 

Personally I have always felt that saying the vitals is the groin is rather silly. As long as I have been playing Hero System / Champions (early 1980s) my groups have always defined vitals to be more than just the groin. The "chest" is any part of the upper trunk of the body except for vital organs (for instance, the heart). The "stomach" is any part of the abdomen except for the major arteries and or other areas likely to cause a greatly increased chance of fatal wounds. Thus we have always defined the "vitals" to be a area from the heart down through the central torso and abdomen where vital organs are located (including the groin). In our game a vitals hit is generally considered to be a heart hit.

 

How do others define the vitals?

 

I think it depends on the angle: groin, kidneys, solar plexis, maybe a shot just under the ribs. We usually play Champs so hit locations aren't a big deal.